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Author Topic: Blowing speed controllers  (Read 655 times)

Offline Robertc

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Blowing speed controllers
« on: February 03, 2010, 10:12:33 AM »
I have had two Phoenix 45 esc blow out in the last two weeks.  The second being in Tucson
at a contest.  AXI 2826/10, Ztron3.  Ran the set up on Friday and fine.  Early morning Sunday,
2 minutes into the flight and motor stops - bad esc.  Red light is a steady blink.  First one blew
was sent back to Castle Creations and replaced under warranty, but no mention as to the problem.
Second one was a controller I have run for the past year with the same set up, but different
AXI 2826/10.  Could the motor cause these to blow? 
Any ideas?
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Alan Hahn

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Re: Blowing speed controllers
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2010, 11:09:04 AM »
Have you recently updated the firmware in the controller?

I think there were some versions (around 3.0) that were "toxic".

I have the latest version in my ICE (I think that is Firmware version 3.2) and at least on the bench, the currents are basically the same as I was seeing on my CCPhoenix45 but running "old(summer 2008 I think) firmware. I put a graph in Crist's thread on latest firmware. http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=15645.0

If you have an "old" version of this "new" firmware, I'd advise to update to 3.2. Also it wouldn't hurt to put a watt meter on it for about 20s or so to convince yourself that things are "ok".
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Offline Dean Pappas

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Re: Blowing speed controllers
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2010, 07:13:48 AM »
Hi Guys,
For what it's worth, I had a buddy in Pattern overheat a motor so that the magnets lost strength and the Kv of the motor went up, undetected.
The funny thing is that airplane performance went pretty much unchanged, even though the currents went through the roof ... that is until he blew 2 ESCs out in rapid succession. The motor manufacturer (Hacker) diagnosed the failure when the motor was suspected and sent back for checking.
Regards,
Dean Pappas
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Alan Hahn

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Re: Blowing speed controllers
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2010, 07:47:07 AM »
To do a simple check to see if somehow the magnets are "demagnetized" "simply" take off the prop and mount a thin disc where you colored light and dark quadrants on the front (so you can use a tach to measure the rpm).

The hook it up to a working ESC where you can set full throttle (in other words, not in governor mode). Measure the rpm at full throttle and also the battery voltage. kV is (approximately) the rpm divided by the voltage. Compare that to the stock value. It should be reasonably close (~10% or so).

If the magnets are toast, you will measure a very high kV.

My guess is the motors are ok, only because I don't think we are really stressing a motor the size of an AXI 2826.


added: I note that if the firmware in the ESC was missbehaving, it could also have heated up the motor too. If I understood Robert correctly, he has burnt 2 ESC's on two separate AXI's (maybe I misunderstood here). My guess is that it is firmware, since people have been reporting similar problems with recent CC firmware. Like I said, I think these problems have really gone away on the latest version 3.2x, so if you have recently updated to slightly lower versions, then be careful.
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Offline Robertc

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Re: Blowing speed controllers
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2010, 08:22:34 AM »
Alan,

Two esc  that blew were on the same motor.  Firmware is the same I've used since Jan 2009 with no previous issues.
Same prop, same timer, same battery.  Motor never seemed hot.  My other AXI always seems warmer.  I'm changing out
the motor for the first test.
Received back the esc from Castle Creations, but it's a new replacement free of charge.  Have not heard what blew in the other.

Robert
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Alan Hahn

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Re: Blowing speed controllers
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2010, 10:15:29 AM »
Remind us what plane this is all on, also your prop, battery, and rpm.

This is more unusual than I thought, and first guess now is something is wrong with that motor.

Do you have a way of measuring the current from the battery?
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Offline Robertc

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Re: Blowing speed controllers
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2010, 02:05:41 PM »
My set is listed in "list your set up".  I can find a way to do all the measuring if need be.

This plane and motor are new.  This is my first front mount motor and the first time I turned it on in the garage,
the motor came out on concrete.  My mount wasn't good enough.  Second time I'm flying it and the motor
comes out again - bad engineered mount.  This motor has taken some jolts, although appearance looks
brand new.  Easiest thing for me is change out motors.  It's the only thing in the whole equation that is
different from before.


Robert
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Alan Hahn

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Re: Blowing speed controllers
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2010, 04:01:03 PM »
Maybe there is a bent shaft, or worse, the iron bell is deformed and the magnets are rubbing. Could also have damaged the bearings.

If you can do the no-load measurement, look at the no-load current--maybe it is pretty high.

So I say go to the other motor.  If the motor is the exact same, then comparing no-load currents and rpm might be interesting. Also running both motors with a prop one or two sizes down (using the governor) and compare watts. If the one is bad, you would see it really pulling the watts.

On the other hand, opening it up and looking for any rubbing is easier on your ESC's! You have to remove the little circlip (and don't lose it!). Take it of inside of a plastic bag.

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Offline Mike Anderson

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Re: Blowing speed controllers
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2010, 09:57:01 PM »
If the motor "Came out" on concrete, then likely the wires got a pretty healthy jerk (I had a similar incident with my first motor).  There could well be an intermittent wiring problem - short or open circuit - internally which may or may not show up on a watt meter.  When mine flew out, it no longer ran at all, but I can see where an intermittent problem would be just as likely as an permanently open connection.
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Blowing speed controllers
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2010, 10:23:43 PM »
When my AXI motor started to go south, it showed as a HUGE increase in power consumption. I eventually found that several of hte magnets had come loose from inside the outer bell.
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Offline Erik Janssen

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Re: Blowing speed controllers
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2010, 12:06:22 PM »
Motor problems can cause the ESC to go up in smoke. I repaired a Spitz 3020 when the magnets came loose, when powered up the ESC went up in smoke due to a short in the wiring.

Another possibility is to have an external 4,8 Volt powering the timer/ESC without the battery connected. If the motor starts the ESC burns itself. You get enough time to wonder where that extra LED came from and then it goes up in smoke.

The proof is in measuring what is going on. I have done some severe bench testing with the CC45 and found out that it supports a lot more than the 60 Amps for 15 seconds. The masimum spike I logged was 73 Amps.... I did this so YOU DO NOT HAVE TO.

Also I found that every parameter has a side where it adds to the max power output, so if you set all the parameters wrong the spikes can get as high as 73 Amps. For this you need to set the spool up at 10, no protection, etc, etc, everything Castle warns you for.

But if you limit yourself to 80% of the maximum value the spikes drop down to 60A. These values are only the spikes, not the reaction speed.

Governor was hardly influenced by the choice for 80% of the maximum settings but this was so much more friendly to the speed controller. I never lost a CC45 in flight.


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Offline Dean Pappas

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Re: Blowing speed controllers
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2010, 05:13:01 PM »
" ... that extra LED ..." now that's funny Erik!
Your successful stress testing of the Phoenix is in keeping with the tests I have done, as well.
later,
   Dean
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Dean Pappas

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