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Author Topic: Parallel charging of LiPo Batteries  (Read 1852 times)

Offline Matt Piatkowski

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Parallel charging of LiPo Batteries
« on: December 13, 2017, 03:46:53 PM »
Hello,
I started using the Revolectrix parallel charging board (MPA-XH-GT) with Revolectrix GT500 charger.
My setup allows to supply the batteries with 10 Amps.

I have balance parallel charged four 5S 2800 mAh. Thunder Power batteries today from the storage voltage. 4.2 V/cell was set using the GT500 options.
Each battery was charged, therefore, using 2.5 Amps. Charging took about 50 minutes.

When the batteries were disconnected and the individual voltages were measured using the LiPo voltmeter, each battery had one cell showing the voltage higher or lower than 4.2 V.
Higher = 4.22 or 4.23 V, lower = 3.99 V.

I did not know why a good quality charger like GT500 allowed for this to happen and suspected the charging setup error. GT500 has a very rich menus tree with many options and, being new to the product, I might have missed the required syntax.

This was not the case.

The parallel balanced charging is a two step process. The first step with GT500 allows to charge up to eight batteries with moderate accuracy. After this step is completed, the user must balance charge each battery individually to fine tune the cells voltages.

In my case this fine tuning took about 20 minutes: roughly 5 minutes per each battery. The individual cells voltages of four batteries were finally in 4.18-4.20 Volts range after this fine tuning.

Here comes my question: is it possible that when four 5S LiPo batteries are connected parallel, the charger "sees" only one big battery having the end voltage of 21 Volts and charged with 10 Amps. instead of 20 individual cells divided in four five cells groups?

I wonder if this two stage balance charging is a standard process or something related to the Revolectrix GT500 charger.

By the way: Revolectrix GT500 manual does not address this.

Please comment,
Thanks,
Matt   

 


Offline pmackenzie

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Re: Parallel charging of LiPo Batteries
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2017, 10:41:28 PM »
Some of those Lipo voltmeters are not very accurate. I would (carefully) confirm the cell voltages with a voltmeter. Measure cell to cell.

I parallel charge all the time, never had any issues with cells getting out of balance.

If your parallel board has an LED on it that lights up when you plug in a battery, remove it.
They connect it to one cell, and it will ( if you leave the packs connected) bring down that set of cells.
MAAC 8177

Offline Matt Piatkowski

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Re: Parallel charging of LiPo Batteries
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2017, 06:45:13 AM »
Hi Motorman,
You wrote:"If you're charging four 5 cell batteries it sees only 5 cells not 20 cells".

During parallel charging, the charger indeed displayed the voltages for 5 cells but the total number of cells connected to the para board was 20.

Does the charger select these 5 cells from battery 1, 2, 3 or 4 or the voltages displayed are averaged using 20 cells? Revolectrix manual does not address this issue.

Thunder Power batteries I was using for this exercise seem to have a decent opinion among users. They were purchased at the same time and had the storage voltage at the moment I started charging. The storage voltage was the same within 0.1 Volts: three were showing 18.9 V and one 19.0 V when I used the LiPo voltmeter just before charging.

I have not found the "fast charge" option on GT500 charger however I can use "charge" option and turn off the cells balancing. The effect will be the same, I suppose.

Yes...I know I can charge TP batteries using 2C current but I cannot exceed 10 Amps. on the batteries side.

GT500 has the 20 Amps. current limit. To get 10 Amps. on batteries, GT500 had to draw 20.5 Amps. yesterday.
20.5 Amps. exceeded the charger current limit but the charging process was finished yesterday without charger "complaining".

Wait...perhaps I have to decrease the charging current when parallel charging four TP 5S 2800 to, say, 2.2 Amps. per battery (8.8 Amps. total current for the para board) in order for the charger to stay BELOW 20 Amps.? Maybe if the 20 Amps. limit on the charger side is SLIGHTLY exceeded it will still work but the cells balancing process goes out of whack?

I have contacted Revolectrix with these questions but no answer yet.

Hi Patrick,
I will use the voltmeter.

What about bold above? What is your opinion in this matter?

Thanks,
M





Offline John Rist

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Re: Parallel charging of LiPo Batteries
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2017, 07:18:41 AM »
Haven't  received it yet but my solution to the problem is a Thunder Power 4 unit charger.  It has a AC/DC  input. 

http://www.thunderpowerrc.com/CHARGERS_POWER_SUPPLIES/Chargers_2/TP4X610HV

MORE DETAILS
AC Input voltage   110Vor220V
DC Input Voltage   11-18V
Charge power   max.100W*4
Discharger power   max.10W*4
Charge current range   0.1-10.0A
Discharge current range   0.1-5.0A
Balance tolerence   ±0.01V
NiCd/NiMH battery cell count   1-15
LiPo/Li-ion/LiFe battery cell count   1-6
Pb battery voltage   2V-24V
Digital Power   3V-24V

If I read the above set of specks correctly I can charge four 4-cell lipos at 6 amps each.  ie 14.4 volts times 6 amps = 87W.  This is below the 100W limit for each channel.   Also with this setup I can can charge any mix of batteries because each of the four channels are independent.  On sale at $135 it appears to be a cheep solution for parallel charging.  I have eight 4 cell LiPo batteries I plan to use this summer to learn how to fly the beginner's patter. When I get home I can storage charge or full charge all eight in two charging sessions.  If I am in a hurry at 4 to 6 amps it won't take long. 
John Rist
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Offline Matt Piatkowski

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Re: Parallel charging of LiPo Batteries
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2017, 09:47:08 AM »
Everybody,
I have found the root cause of strange behavior of some cells for the batteries charged in my parallel setup.

Again, the strange behavior was: "When the batteries were disconnected and the individual voltages were measured using the LiPo voltmeter, each battery had one cell showing the voltage higher or lower than 4.2 V.
Higher = 4.22 or 4.23 V, lower = 3.99 V."


The root cause: the GT500 charger was finishing balancing the cells exceeding its allowed 20 Amps. current. It was drawing ~20.5 Amps. at that time.

In such case the balancing function of GT500 goes most likely out of whack?

I have parallel charged four TP 5S 2800 to 20.9 Volts each a moment ago. The charging current seen by batteries was 8.80 Amps. (2.2 Amps per battery) and the GT500 highest current was 17.96 Amps. The charging took 47 minutes.

After the batteries were disconnected, the individual voltages of 20 cells were within 4.16-4.18 V range and the total voltage of each battery dropped to 20.8 V. The LiPo voltmeter was used to verify these numbers.

The problem has been solved.

I will monitor the IR of these batteries and will keep a log of their use.

Thank you,
M


 


Offline Fred Underwood

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Re: Parallel charging of LiPo Batteries
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2017, 12:56:17 PM »
The online manual stated that the input current is 1 - 25 amps software limited.  Output charge current is limited to 20 amps and/or 250 watts at 12V input, 500 watts at 24V input. 

Your 10 amps output took 20.5 amps input at about 12V assumed, or 246 watts, still all in limits.

If the Lipo meter is one of the inexpensive field units, they are not always accurate, as noted.  Put a pack on charge by itself and turn on the charger and check balance immediately as it comes on, not giving it time to "re-balance."  Your nice charger is likely more accurate that the cell checker.  Or with a digital voltmeter cell by cell as noted above.

As noted the charger sees 5 cells.  Each single "cell" is a composite of the cells in parallel.  Charger Cell 1 is pack cell 1 of each pack.  The charger should balance Charger cells 1 - 5 and not the separate pack cells. They are however connected in parallel and should be at the same voltage.

You can make a setting on the charger that stops at an arbitrary voltage that you select.  At about 4.13V/cell, I will put an additional 200 - 250 mah in each battery to finish to 4.2V/cell.  Parallel charge to that voltage, your choice of charge rate.  Either not balance, or balance and set the termination C rate to 5 or less.  To finish charging, balance charge each pack at C/10 or C/20.  You get reasonable fast parallel charging and then slow but reliable balance of each pack.  That said, when my packs are good and reasonable similar in IR they parallel charge fine, including Zippys.  Packs not staying in balance should be watched closely.

Your note about new TP batteries -  "They were purchased at the same time and had the storage voltage at the moment I started charging. The storage voltage was the same within 0.1 Volts: three were showing 18.9 V and one 19.0 V when I used the LiPo voltmeter just before charging" - makes me wonder if was done at first cycle.  My batteries changed IR and balance after a soft charge and discharge, and then balanced and had fairly equal and low IR.  TP suggests break in cycle, perhaps it helps life span by balancing.


Fred
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Offline Matt Piatkowski

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Re: Parallel charging of LiPo Batteries
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2017, 08:59:10 AM »
Hi Fred,
The batteries have been broken by repeating 1C charge and slow discharge to the storage voltage three times.

Thank you for your clarification regarding five "composite" cells seen by GT500. Now I know.
Such explanation should be included in the Revolectrix GT500 manual.

My LiPo voltmeter displays three digits and is, therefore, less accurate than GT500.

You wrote: "You can make a setting on the charger that stops at an arbitrary voltage that you select.  At about 4.13V/cell, I will put an additional 200 - 250 mah in each battery to finish to 4.2V/cell.  Parallel charge to that voltage, your choice of charge rate.  Either not balance, or balance and set the termination C rate to 5 or less.  To finish charging, balance charge each pack at C/10 or C/20."
.

I will try this method and report the results in this thread.

Best Regards,
M






Offline Fred Underwood

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Re: Parallel charging of LiPo Batteries
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2017, 11:21:21 AM »
Was the imbalance after the cycles, or at the onset?

Most inexpensive lipo cell checkers are also cheaper and less accurate electronics from what I read, not just decimal places.

If you want to try the charging mentioned, use one of the blank presets to make up your specifics - end charge voltage, charge rate, end C termination....  That way you can partially charge the batteries using a preset, then finish on a preset that goes to full charge.  C/5 will give slightly less capacity then C/20, but is faster.  If you don't need every last electron, use C/X and X less that 20.
Fred
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Offline Matt Piatkowski

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Re: Parallel charging of LiPo Batteries
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2017, 03:02:02 PM »
Hi again Fred,

Three or four weeks ago I cycled the 5S 2800 TP batteries, charged them to storage voltage and stored them.

When checked using the LiPo voltmeter about two weeks ago, all cells were sitting at 3.79-3.80 Volts.

The imbalance appeared AFTER I attempted to parallel balance charge these batteries on Dec.13, 2017. Like I wrote, the current reaching four of these batteries hooked up to the Revolectrix parallel charging board (MPA-XH-GT) was set to 10 Amps. GT500 charger reached the peak of 20.5 Amps. and kept working. 20.5 Amps. lasted about two minutes and, during these two minutes, the power supply voltage was 11.7 Volts. 20.5 x 11.7=240 Watts.

I will keep testing and experimenting until I understand what is going on,

Thanks,
M
 



Offline Matt Piatkowski

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Re: Parallel charging of LiPo Batteries
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2017, 11:16:46 AM »
Hi Motorman,
I am waiting for the Revolectrix customer support reaction.
They stay mute so I gather I confused them with my questions.

My 5S 2800 TP batteries have been cycled four times at the beginning of their use using the balanced charge from 3.80 to 4.20 Volts and then discharge to 3.80 V/cell using the 150 Watts, Made-in-China, 3 halogen 50 W light bulbs, discharger. The discharging current during these four cycles was about 5 Amps.

Later,
M

Offline Matt Piatkowski

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Re: Parallel charging of LiPo Batteries
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2017, 03:00:53 PM »
Hello again,
Revolectrix responded and I run new tests using GT500 charger and Revo parallel board.

Results:
1. LiPo voltmeter displays three digits and displays the same cells voltages as my multimeter that also shows three digits. Both devices have, therefore, the same accuracy.
2. GT500 displays four digits while checking voltages.
3. After charging parallel balanced four 5S 2800 TP batteries from the storage voltage to 4.19 Volts/ cell, the process successfully completed.

Please see the attachments.

I was wrong claiming that the parallel charging process must be done in two steps. One step works.
Why were the individual voltages of some cells 3.99, 4.22 and 4.23 Volts after initial charging?
If you know - tell me. I do not know and the Revolectrix does not know. Static electricity perhaps?

Regards and Happy Holidays (Merry Christmas for me).



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