Author Topic: Nose over stopped motor on high Amps - what to check? (Read 1567 times)

Dennis Toth · « **on:** July 25, 2020, 01:07:43 PM »

Went to the field this morning and thought I would get one quick flight before the winds came up. The field was very soggy as they had a lot of rain (this is a county park soccer field, well groomed). Thought I found a reasonably firm spot to take off from, not so good. As the ship started to roll and pick up speed the wheels started to drag in the wet soft grass and it nosed over. The motor tried to keep going but finally (after about 2 -4 seconds) stop on I assume high amps.

Nothing was damage so I shut it down waited a minute and figured I'd re-fire and hall it off the ground this time. Flip the on switch, timer beeps, I am at the handle waiting for it to spin up. Motor starts to spin then kinda stops, then a little spurt, then nothing. At this point I flip the off switch and call it a day. At the car I remove the battery, it is warm not hot, but then I sniff a bit and my old Air Force electronics training tells me something is not good. Kinda had a smell of toasted something.

OK now I need to check out what has the problem. The motor turns but not a free as it use to, still tooths but won't spin free very much if you flip it. Don't know what that could be. I need to get down to the ESC and maybe test it with another motor to see if there is a problem. Any ideas how to check further?

Going forward I need to change all my ESC settings on high amp out to "sensitive" I had them all set for "normal". Any other setting that should be looked at to protect the ESC (I use Castle Creation ESC's)

Best, DennisT

John Rist · « **Reply #1 on:** July 25, 2020, 02:42:11 PM »

The motor not turning as free is probably a shorted winding causing the motor to act as a generator. Motor is probably toast. If you have another motor try it to see if ESC is OK. Some on this board probably think I work for the KR company because I keep pushing KR timers. I do not work for KR but here goes again: I use nothing but KR timers and cheep ESCs. To date I have never lost an ESC or a motor due to a noise over. And I have had noise overs. The KR timer works on RPMs not current levels. As soon as the prop hits the ground and the RPMs drop the timer shuts OFF. The stop is instant and all is safe. Over current shutdown may work if set up properly. I sometimes wounder if ESC current sensing isn't designed to protect the high $ ESC rather than the motor.

Others may and will have a different take on the subject but this i know: a KR timer will protect your motor on a noise over.

CircuitFlyer · « **Reply #2 on:** July 26, 2020, 08:48:08 AM »

Although some ESC's could monitor current flow by measuring the instantaneous voltage drop across a saturated MOSFET most incorporate a thermistor to initiate a shutdown when things get too hot. The problem is that it takes time for the circuit to heat up before it trips the shutdown. This was likely the reason for the 2-4 second delay you seen before it shutdown. During that period the actual current flow was through the roof, possibly overheating and baking the insulation off of the motor windings.

I'm with John, the KR timer prop strike protection if a far superior system that reacts without any delay. I would just like to add that the prop strike protection does not start untill the motor reaches the governing RPM. During the first 1.5-2 seconds while the prop is spooling up there is no prop strike protection. If you are flying solo off grass use a stooge and release only after the motor hits the governed RPM.

Paul

John Rist · « **Reply #3 on:** July 26, 2020, 09:53:40 AM »

Quote from: CircuitFlyer on July 26, 2020, 08:48:08 AM

Although some ESC's could monitor current flow by measuring the instantaneous voltage drop across a saturated MOSFET most incorporate a thermistor to initiate a shutdown when things get too hot. The problem is that it takes time for the circuit to heat up before it trips the shutdown. This was likely the reason for the 2-4 second delay you seen before it shutdown. During that period the actual current flow was through the roof, possibly overheating and baking the insulation off of the motor windings.

I'm with John, the KR timer prop strike protection if a far superior system that reacts without any delay. I would just like to add that the prop strike protection does not start untill the motor reaches the governing RPM. During the first 1.5-2 seconds while the prop is spooling up there is no prop strike protection. If you are flying solo off grass use a stooge and release only after the motor hits the governed RPM.

Paul

Paul good point, I hadn't taught of that. Not sure how the KR spool up time reacts. Full up during spool up would keep the tail on the ground but would make for a ugly take off. Wounder if Keith is watching and can jump in with a comment.

Dennis Toth · « **Reply #4 on:** July 26, 2020, 04:12:01 PM »

Good points. I haven't had time to pull things apart but it seems like it cooked the motor. Besides plugging in a new motor and smoke testing it can I check the ESC condition with the Castle Link? What should I look for in the read out (this is a Talon ESC and doesn't have internal data collection)?

Biggest problem, assuming the ESC is OK, is getting a replacement motor that fits the mount holes. The motor is a Turnigy SK 3542 1000Kv (very close to a 2820 for everybody else's way to measure motors), the mount holes for the front mount are 25mm for two and 19mm for the other two. HobbyKing is out of stock for this motor but I did find something that should work.

Best, DennisT

John Rist · « **Reply #5 on:** July 26, 2020, 04:46:17 PM »

Quote from: Dennis Toth on July 26, 2020, 04:12:01 PM

Good points. I haven't had time to pull things apart but it seems like it cooked the motor. Besides plugging in a new motor and smoke testing it can I check the ESC condition with the Castle Link? What should I look for in the read out (this is a Talon ESC and doesn't have internal data collection)?

Biggest problem, assuming the ESC is OK, is getting a replacement motor that fits the mount holes. The motor is a Turnigy SK 3542 1000Kv (very close to a 2820 for everybody else's way to measure motors), the mount holes for the front mount are 25mm for two and 19mm for the other two. HobbyKing is out of stock for this motor but I did find something that should work.

Best, DennisT

Front mount motors usually have a square bolt pattern like 25mm x 25mm are you saying you have a 25mm x 19mm hole pattern? Anyway the Cobra 2814/16 may work. It is a 25 x 25 bolt pattern.

https://innov8tivedesigns.com/cobra-c-2814-16-brushless-motor-kv-1050.html

Any of the Cobra 28xx motors have a 25mm bolt pattern.

Dennis Toth · « **Reply #6 on:** July 26, 2020, 06:03:36 PM »

John,
Yes the mount holes on the Turnigy motors are a diamond pattern 25mm; 19mm. I don't know what other brands use this but there are a few HobbyStar 2820 (3542) - 1000Kv is one I ordered for now.

Best, DennisT

John Rist · « **Reply #7 on:** July 26, 2020, 08:01:33 PM »

Quote from: Dennis Toth on July 26, 2020, 06:03:36 PM

John,
Yes the mount holes on the Turnigy motors are a diamond pattern 25mm; 19mm. I don't know what other brands use this but there are a few HobbyStar 2820 (3542) - 1000Kv is one I ordered for now.

Best, DennisT

You are correct. I looked at an old Trunigy motor in my motor box and sure enough it's 25mm x 19mm. I would have never guessed it. Makes it hard to rotate to get the wires in the right place. However the X mount is symmetrical after you get it bolted on. Anyway sounds like you have it under control. Tight lines!

PS My E-Ringmaster only uses 2 of the 4 bolts to hold in the motor. That is the way Tom Morris set it up. So far it has held up. Admittedly he is now using a printed 4 bolt mount in his E-Ringmaster. My point is you could use only two of the 4 bolts and install a 25mm mount motor provided you have stiff enough mount.

Keith Renecle · « **Reply #8 on:** July 26, 2020, 10:56:36 PM »

Hi All,
Thanks to John for his regular inputs on questions on my governor timers! The instruction manual mentions that the system will shut down if the prop is jammed but only in governor mode. It seems that I did not stress this well enough with a sentence like "When taking off in thick grass that can jam the wheels, then use a helper to hold the model until the motor spins up to the governed rpm".......or something like that.

While the motor is spooling up, the software for detecting the drop in rpm is not enabled, and therefore it is possible that some motor and/or esc damage can occur. I have mentioned this a few times of forums but my apologies for not high-lighting this in the instructions. I will add that to the manual.

Keith R

Dennis Toth · « **Reply #9 on:** July 30, 2020, 02:15:07 PM »

OK, the Hyperion M5 collet removal tool came today (Crist R recommended this see Prop Collet puller thread for details), this is a great tool and fits inside a Tom Morris 1 3/4" nose ring. in less time then it took to take the tool out of the package I had the collet popped off. Now I need to pull this motor and check if the ESC is OK. I did find another Turnigy 3542 - 1000 motor I had on the shelf that I forgot about, so it seems I have a drop in if all else is OK. No rush now as we have a tropical storm coming our way for the weekend so I can take my time and double check every thing.

Best, DennisT

Dennis Toth · « **Reply #10 on:** July 30, 2020, 05:01:22 PM »

OK, since I found the spare motor for the Stuka I pulled the old motor and plugged in the ESC - timer and set the timer for a 10 sec run and smoke tested the system. Worked great, time delay worked as before and motor did soft start and spun up to RPM. I will connect up to the Castle Link and set the high amp set to high sensitivity.

Best, DennisT

bob branch · « **Reply #11 on:** September 25, 2020, 03:30:26 PM »

almost every nose over i have experienced with a castle creations esc has resulted in the esc failing. Lost another one earlier this year but did not see the smoke (only time) but while it was not a nose over and just a strike, it failed.

Never have had a motor fail due to a prop stryke but always the esc.

Dennis Toth · « **Reply #12 on:** September 25, 2020, 04:01:18 PM »

Bob,
Guess I was lucky, I had the amp cut-off set for normal. I have now move it to sensitive and am thinking about going to very sensitive. Not sure how much load it takes to kick it off on the very sensitive setting? I was always concerned that a minor prop buzz would kick it off in maneuvers, anyone know?

Best, DennisT

Rob Smith · « **Reply #13 on:** September 25, 2020, 05:07:26 PM »

My model nosed over last week. That burnt my $70 Hacker motor. I feel your pain!

Rob

TDM · « **Reply #14 on:** September 28, 2020, 09:00:13 AM »

Trouble shoot
3 items Motor ESC Battery
1: Check battery with a meter. with something like this. By the way I use something like this on the field especially during competition to make sure I select the charged battery, during practice I sometimes loose my head and run batteries twice.
https://www.amazon.com/Digital-Battery-Capacity-Voltage-Controller/dp/B07RNPHJN6/ref=asc_df_B07RNPHJN6/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=366430786295&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=3082260089480111288&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9010799&hvtargid=pla-800984124219&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=75985294733&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=366430786295&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=3082260089480111288&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9010799&hvtargid=pla-800984124219
2: check motor/ESC:
https://www.amazon.com/Digital-Aluminum-Consistency-Controler-Checker/dp/B07G5WNNJS/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?crid=1EFKBE07782QA&dchild=1&keywords=servo+tester&qid=1601302202&sprefix=servo+tes%2Ctools%2C158&sr=8-2-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUExVTJST1JSMVZTU1IyJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwNzgzODk1M1VROFRYUDAxVDBCJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTA4MTEwMDczRlBLVlRMRThHUTRLJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfYXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==
This gizmo outputs an RC receiver signal that makes the servo or an ESC work.
Generally if motor max Amp is greater than ESC max amp then likely the weaker of the two will burn, in this case the ESC will burn, and the vice versa.
If you have a ESC and motor you know they work for sure then you can check the existing motor ESC by swapping with the working components. Instead of using the timer for signal just use the servo tester to generate a signal. The working motor or working ESC don't have to be 100% compatible but they just have to work and do not go full blast on the servo tester because you can burn the good stuff. You only want to check if the motor spins.

Optional
Isn't there a away to check the 3 coils? Brushless motors have 3 coils that are spun around some numbers of poles. They are a long wire that is insulated by some kind of coating. Because of their length they will have some resistance that could be measured. So if you can measure the resistance over the 3 coils and that is the in the same ball park that would mean the coils are good. After that I would check the bearings etc. to make sure they are ok.

Author Topic: Nose over stopped motor on high Amps - what to check? (Read 1567 times)

Dennis Toth

Nose over stopped motor on high Amps - what to check?

John Rist

Re: Nose over stopped motor on high Amps - what to check?

CircuitFlyer

Re: Nose over stopped motor on high Amps - what to check?

John Rist

Re: Nose over stopped motor on high Amps - what to check?

Dennis Toth

Re: Nose over stopped motor on high Amps - what to check?

John Rist

Re: Nose over stopped motor on high Amps - what to check?

Dennis Toth

Re: Nose over stopped motor on high Amps - what to check?

John Rist

Re: Nose over stopped motor on high Amps - what to check?

Keith Renecle

Re: Nose over stopped motor on high Amps - what to check?

Dennis Toth

Re: Nose over stopped motor on high Amps - what to check?

Dennis Toth

Re: Nose over stopped motor on high Amps - what to check?

bob branch

Re: Nose over stopped motor on high Amps - what to check?

Dennis Toth

Re: Nose over stopped motor on high Amps - what to check?

Rob Smith

Re: Nose over stopped motor on high Amps - what to check?

TDM

Re: Nose over stopped motor on high Amps - what to check?