Author Topic: Plettenburg settings? (Read 3667 times)

Russell Bond · « **on:** September 27, 2010, 06:39:11 PM »

I have been running an Arrowind 2832 and have now fitted a Plettenburg 25-10.
The plettenburg is a bit noisier than the Arrowind and I was wondering if the Castle Ice 50 settings need changing.
I have been using Set RPM and the Governor Mode on Medium (25) and the motor PWM is set to 12Khz because the Arrowind didn't like the 16Khz setting.
Will the Plettenburg run quieter if I set it to 8Khz? Or do I need to set the Governor Mode to Low? (Or both?)

PS: I did remember to change the number of poles and the kV of the motor.

William DeMauro · « **Reply #1 on:** September 27, 2010, 07:22:32 PM »

Hi Russel,
I have done some bench testing with an Orbit 20-12 and found I had to be set in low gov for it to run right with the Phoenix controllers. I believe these are 10 pole motors. If i remember correctly, I think the PWM of the Shulze Controllers is 19 So I would think that a pwm setting on a Phoenix controller in a nearby range would work well. Its been a few months since I did this testing so if I am wrong I apologize and I would hope that someone that has this fresher in their mind will step in and correct me. If I remember right I did get it to run in set RPM also but I was looking to make it run in Gov mode so I didn't concentrate on that.

Russell Bond · « **Reply #2 on:** September 27, 2010, 07:48:47 PM »

Thanks William,
Yes, you're right, the Plettenburg has 10 poles.

If I set the ESC to Governor Low, I assume the 3 head speed settings will still work ok, is that correct?

Russell Bond · « **Reply #3 on:** September 27, 2010, 08:15:00 PM »

I just thought of something else.
I'm using an FM9 timer, so if I use Governor Low, I'll need to set the RPM on the timer itself....I think...

(Unless I go back to the FM2......)

William DeMauro · « **Reply #4 on:** September 28, 2010, 05:52:10 PM »

Russel,
When you made your last post, it jarred my memory some. I have an early prog box for the FM-9 so I don't have a setting for low gov.(I'm not even sure if one is now available on the newer ones). I did find 2 workarounds but both require a tach at least the first time through. The first and easiest is to set your speed control up in Low Gov with your castle link. Set it up so that all the setting match your motor. Now when we get to setting up the FM-9 this is where the work around comes in. Set the FM-9 in Jeti Spin mode. Then set your RPM. It will be wrong!!! but that's OK. Put a smaller prop on your motor and get your tach out. I happened to write down what equaled what on mine. This may not be the same for you. But for example When I set the FM-9 for 10,998 my motor ran at around 9900. 10866=9000 at the prop. I also got it to work in throttle mode using percentages but again you need the tach. By the way you don't need to go back to the FM-2 as the FM-9 can also be run in Set RPM Mode if you want to. I have not flown this so I am not sure how this will work out in the air.

Dean Pappas · « **Reply #5 on:** September 28, 2010, 08:41:49 PM »

Hello Russell,
I don't know anything about Plettys, but in general,
I think we all ought to start out playing with a new motor on the bench or outdoors,
using either an RC receiver, a pulse width generator like the Vexa RC or Jeti units,
and run the motor on the intended prop at the intended RPM, with the ESC set for RC Fixed Trottle Range ... before messing with the governor.

You say this motor is noisier. Is it the governor loop oscillating or chattering quickly around the set-point RPM? Maybe.
Is it the commutation timing being set inappropriately for that particular motor? Maybe.
Firing up a new motor in a hail-Mary play like this prevents you from being able to sort any problems out. On the other hand you could get lucky!

I suspect there are lots of governors out there set to low gain, or slow response speed in order to mask a marginal commutation timing issue.
Over-advanced timing will interfere with fast throttle increases, which can be checked with a transmitter or servo controller like those I named.
First you need good fast squeal/squeek/howl/chatter-free throttle response without the governor.
Then the GOVERNATOR has the best to work with.

So many combinations to try!
Regards,
Dean P.

Will Hubin · « **Reply #6 on:** October 06, 2010, 08:58:17 PM »

I made a calibration of RPM versus pulse width (throttle %) for the Plettenberg Orbit 25-10 and a Phoenix 35 in the Low RPM mode. Unfortunately, it appears that the High RPM mode of the Phoenix is too high and the Low RPM mode is too low for the Plettenberg, because the available RPM spacing (resolution or increment) for even 1/2 of 1% throttle changes becomes extremely large at the 9,000 to 11,000 RPM range -- like 200 RPM or more. (In comparison, the Schulze F2B provides nearly constant 30 RPM increments over this same range.)

If one can live with the large RPM spacing, flyers using the FM-9 system have been able to get usable RPMs by using the JetiSpin calibration of the FM-9, even though the tach values won't agree with the displayed RPM. That calibration does provide the 1/2 of 1% throttle changes (.005 ms), which is the minimum one can hope to be usable with the ESC.

It is possible that the Set RPM mode of the Phoenix can be used to provide better RPM control since it requires an input of the number of poles of the motor, but I haven't checked that out.

Another viable alternative for an ESC for the Plettenberg is the JetiSpin 66; it provides a BEC but it doesn't implement the nice data recording of the ICE. It does require an input of the number of poles (10 for the Plettenberg). When I specified timing of 15 degrees and a frequency of 8 kHz and end points of 1.0 and 2.0 milliseconds and 8,000 to 11,000 RPM, I found that RPM increments of about 20 were available, although a 4S battery only went to about 9450 RPM; a 5S battery took it to about 10,300 RPM (and would have gone higher). I'm thinking of incorporating this in the FM-9 Programmer as an alternate calibration for JetiSpin.

Will Hubin · « **Reply #7 on:** October 19, 2010, 09:04:01 AM »

I've made some test-stand checks of an ICE 50 ESC and a Plettenberg Orbit 20-16 using the Set RPM mode. It looks like it might work in the 9,000 to 10,000 RPM range in which the Low RPM range is too low and the High RPM range is too high. (I used a kV of 800 although I don't know what the correct value is, but I don't think that's a consideration here.)

After setting the ICE for 8 kHz, a 10-pole motor, and Set RPM values of 9500, 9550, and 9600, I measured tach values about 50 RPM higher but apparently steady: 9540/9570, 9600, and 9660. Norm Whittle is probably going to be trying this Set RPM combination to see how it works in the field.

WhittleN · « **Reply #8 on:** October 19, 2010, 09:53:53 AM »

Yes, I will try this setup in the near future. Dennis Adamisin also recommended this mode. The Plettenberg 10 pole is a very nice motor but not real RPM friendly with the CC ICE controller. If you look at Castle Creations site and the input Pulse Width to RPM output chart (in the download section) you can see we are on a very steep slope for our RPM range.
On my flight trials the ICE lite 50 and Plettenberg were very steady with good governor gain at 9400 RPM and this equated to a 5.4 second lap but I wanted a 5.3 sec lap. Well the next increment on the RPM’s was 9700 and this jumped the lap time to 5.1. I know there are other solutions to get the desired speed - twist prop, shorter lines, longer lines …
We Electric guys got spoiled quickly. I remember just a few months ago I would have given an arm and a leg to get consistent 5.4 second laps with my VF 40. I considered +/- .2 seconds good consistent lap times with changing conditions of the day.

Dean Pappas · « **Reply #9 on:** October 20, 2010, 07:24:08 AM »

What?
Don't you deserve to be spoiled?
take care,
Dean

Darkstar1 · « **Reply #10 on:** November 13, 2010, 06:00:36 PM »

I went out to do some trimming this week with my new Impact with the Orbit 20-16 installed. After four short flights to sort the basics out I went for some full time flights. The results seem encouraging to me. Settings are the same as the Rimfire motor I've been using except I turned the governor gain down to 15. Here are a few flights from the data logger. I plan on going out tomorrow (weather permitting) with some different settings.In the four batteries I used for the full flights I put took out an avg of 1811 mah from each battery.

Howard Rush · « **Reply #11 on:** November 13, 2010, 09:39:17 PM »

Thanks, Darrell. What lap time and line length?

Russell Bond · « **Reply #12 on:** November 14, 2010, 12:44:21 AM »

My Plettenburg is working very well.

In throttle, I set the Governor Mode to "Set RPM" and the Governor gain to "Medium 25".

Head speeds are 9300, 9400 and 9500. I fly on the 9300 at 5.5 secs/lap on 68.5" center to center lines.

In the motor settings I set the timing to "Normal 5" and the PWM rate to 16.

I found that the motor ran much nicer and quieter after I fitted a Tru Line spinner to it, probably balanced better.

Russell Bond · « **Reply #13 on:** November 14, 2010, 02:14:29 AM »

On your graph I noticed that the motor RPMs vary by about 400RPMs.
I'm not fully clued up on electrics yet so I may be wrong, but I'm thinking if you set the Governor Gain to Medium (25), it may make the revs vary less between the highest to the lowest....

My revs only vary by about 150RPMs and my model is heavy at 70oz including battery. (690 squares.)

Darkstar1 · « **Reply #14 on:** November 14, 2010, 02:31:39 PM »

I've reset the gov gain to med. Tried to go flying today as soon as I was ready to go it started to rain a bit so I had to wrap it up and I'll try again next week when the weather is better. You're probably right I just wanted to be conservative with the initial settings. Lap times are 5.3-5.4 line length is 64 ft.

Howard Rush · « **Reply #15 on:** November 14, 2010, 02:59:55 PM »

Thanks. 64 ft from handle to airplane centerline? That's kinda short for an Impact.

Darkstar1 · « **Reply #16 on:** November 14, 2010, 04:27:37 PM »

Sorry 67ft 6in total from handle to center line. On .015 lines

Rudy Taube · « **Reply #17 on:** November 14, 2010, 04:36:15 PM »

Hi Russel,

Thank you for the good info. ..... One question: Did you use one of the Light weight Electric Tru-Turn spinners? Or is there a Tru Line spinner brand that we do not know about?

The reason I ask is that I have found some of the plastic spinners to be out of balance. Even though these plastic spinners are lighter and less expensive, I have gone back to my reliable Electric Tru-Turn metal spinners that are well balanced and seem to work better for CL and RC.

Russell Bond · « **Reply #18 on:** November 14, 2010, 06:36:39 PM »

Yes Rudy, it is the lightweight electric "Ultimate".

Again yes, I wouldn't touch a plastic spinner if you paid me...

I won't bother even using a carbon one as the Tru Turn works so well.

Keith Renecle · « **Reply #19 on:** November 14, 2010, 11:37:45 PM »

Any governor holding tight rpm around 100 rpm each way (200 rpm variation in total) is very good. If you're getting 150 then that's excellent. Most tachs only have a resolution of 100 rpm and this is really sufficient anyway. As Norm Whittle mentioned, trying to get this kind of performance from a wet setup is rather difficult if not impossible. I know that some digital tachs have the extra 10 rpm digit, but many folks blank this out because it is fairly erratic.

The more poles the motor has, the easier it is for the governor to have a tight resolution. Schultze has obviously worked hard on their esc's to achieve a 30 rpm resolution with a 10 pole, although in practice this has no real advantage over esc's like the Jeti Spin which claims 50 rpm. Obviously, the heavier the model and the rougher the weather, the harder the governor has to work. The BIG thing is though that it takes a very serious stunt power package to compete with an average electric system. Any time that you stop appreciating just how good these governor systems work............just switch the governor off for a flight and feel the difference!

Keith R

Russell Bond · « **Reply #20 on:** November 15, 2010, 12:12:25 AM »

Ooooh,.........I was going to ask how I can adjust things to make the variance less then 150RPMs.

After Keith's reply I think I'll shut up and enjoy!!!

As i said, I'm no expert yet when it comes to electrics

Keith Renecle · « **Reply #21 on:** November 15, 2010, 08:34:25 AM »

Hi Russel,

Can you post a chart from the CC unit? I would love to see it. If your stunter weighs 70 oz. then that sort of regulation is really good. I would also love to know how how the Schultze gets down to 30 rpm increments with a 10 pole motor. Maybe Will can tell us this and also how he measured it? What sort of tach are you using? I think that the Globee tach has the extra digit for 10 rpm, but trying to get a stable reading is quite hard to achieve. Could be that all this sort of accuracy is why they cost an arm and a leg!

Keith R

Russell Bond · « **Reply #22 on:** November 15, 2010, 02:08:41 PM »

I'm using a Castle Phoenix Ice Speed controller with the Hubin timer.
I'm not sure what you mean by "tach". Do you mean do I tach the motor on the ground? If so, I never have done that.
I just set the RPMs on the head speed and the Governor Mode at "Set RPM". (Or was this question for Will?)
On the graph I can see all the manouvers as they have the 'troughs and peaks". Looks good that I can count the loops, 8s etc.
I'll save the log and post it soon.

Russell Bond · « **Reply #23 on:** November 15, 2010, 09:25:45 PM »

Here are the last 5 flights that I had with the model. I have included one photo without the watts as it is easier to read.

Keith Renecle · « **Reply #24 on:** November 15, 2010, 10:15:47 PM »

Thanks Russel, your rpm regulation from the governor looks pretty good and the same as most of the good systems. If you look at the peaks and troughs, then you will see that the variance is around 200 to 250 rpm, and that's pretty solid.

Sorry I was a little vague on the tach thing.......I was not concentrating! Will Hubin mentioned that he tested the Shultze esc and managed to get steps of 30 rpm, so I was wondering what sort of rev-counter or tachometer he was using. The motors are not usually that stable even with a big prop on them as a flywheel so the display tends to be a little jumpy on the 10 rpm digit.

It's nice to check the ground rpm with a tach, but unlike wet set-ups, the motor in governor mode holds this in flight. You don't really need this if you have a system like the FM-9 with the LCD display or the Jetibox system. Even if the rpm is not exact on the display, it is a relative setting to what speed you like to fly at. You can therefore simply add or subtract rpm to suit the flying conditions.

Keith R

Russell Bond · « **Reply #25 on:** November 15, 2010, 10:58:51 PM »

Yes, I've never bothered to tach the motor on the ground, I just see what happens in the air.
I just love the way electrics run at a constant speed. This is what I wanted in my wet models, as I liked to set the big motors up in a constant 4-cycle. The only problem was my planes were normally heavy so I needed the extra "grunt" over the top.

The only thing I'm worried about is the temperature of the Speed Controller.
It is 60c on these graphs on a cool day, but I have seen 70c on a warmer day.
I might try 12PWM instead of 16 and see if it runs cooler.
What is the safe upper limits of heat on the speed controllers? I'm running the CC heat sink unit as well.

WhittleN · « **Reply #26 on:** November 16, 2010, 07:25:00 AM »

Russell

May I sugest you go to PWM 8kHz not 16 kHz.

Norm

Will Hubin · « **Reply #27 on:** November 16, 2010, 02:28:27 PM »

Maybe Will can tell us this and also how he measured it? What sort of tach are you using? I think that the Globee tach has the extra digit for 10 rpm, but trying to get a stable reading is quite hard to achieve. Could be that all this sort of accuracy is why they cost an arm and a leg!

Keith,
I use a Globee or a Tower Hobbies tach with my test stand; they seem to agree. With the Schulze, I measured the RPM at pulse widths from 1.15 to 1.90 ms, in steps of .05 ms. About half of the RPMs were stable on the tach; the ones that weren't oscillated between two RPMs separated by only 30 RPM -- and then I usually chose a value between them. In the 1.40 to 1.65 region (9360 to 10,620 RPM), the RPM change for a pulse width change of .05 ms varied between 300 and 360. Because my firmware resolves .005 ms changes, this resulted in RPM changes of 30 to 35 RPM being available, respectively (linear interpolation in the program between the readings).

Russell Bond · « **Reply #28 on:** November 16, 2010, 03:06:38 PM »

Hi Norm,
I tried 8hz and it had a bad electrical vibration and then blew the prop loose. 8hz worked with the Arrowind but not on the Plettenburg.
16hz blew the prop loose on the Arrowind.

So on the Plettenburg 12hz and 16hz works and on the Arrowind 8hz and 12hz works.

WhittleN · « **Reply #29 on:** November 16, 2010, 03:10:50 PM »

Russell
I run 8 kHz it is smooth as can be. Could you have a timing problem? I do run Gov Low with the Will Hubin FM-9 timer. It just hits the right RPM but the next step up or down is a problem.

Norm

Russell Bond · « **Reply #30 on:** November 16, 2010, 04:42:35 PM »

Hi norm,
No, I'm using "Set RPM" so that I can use the three head (rpm) settings.
Also, the timing is on "normal 5".

Keith Renecle · « **Reply #31 on:** November 17, 2010, 10:12:41 PM »

Quote from: Will Hubin on November 16, 2010, 02:28:27 PM

Maybe Will can tell us this and also how he measured it? What sort of tach are you using? I think that the Globee tach has the extra digit for 10 rpm, but trying to get a stable reading is quite hard to achieve. Could be that all this sort of accuracy is why they cost an arm and a leg!

Keith,
I use a Globee or a Tower Hobbies tach with my test stand; they seem to agree. With the Schulze, I measured the RPM at pulse widths from 1.15 to 1.90 ms, in steps of .05 ms. About half of the RPMs were stable on the tach; the ones that weren't oscillated between two RPMs separated by only 30 RPM -- and then I usually chose a value between them. In the 1.40 to 1.65 region (9360 to 10,620 RPM), the RPM change for a pulse width change of .05 ms varied between 300 and 360. Because my firmware resolves .005 ms changes, this resulted in RPM changes of 30 to 35 RPM being available, respectively (linear interpolation in the program between the readings).

Thanks very much Will. O.K. now I see how you're doing this. I have used the Globee tach on wet setups, but like I said before, the first digit is not of much use. Electric really spoils us. For all practical flying purposes however, steps of 100 rpm are good enough.

Keith R

Dean Pappas · « **Reply #32 on:** November 19, 2010, 08:12:37 AM »

Hello Russell,
I see that you are able to record 5 whole flights with the settings used on your data logger.
This means that you have not set the sample time as fast as possible, or taken samples of only the necessary channels.
I think the minimum possible sample time is 1/10th of a second?

In any case, you are sampling too slowly to see what your RPM variations really are: the high loads in corners exist for only 1/4 second or so, and that's why you want to run as many samples per second as you can.
I'm not familiar with the ICE logger myself (I still haven't bought one for myself) but I suspect that taking fewer channels of data helps speed the best-case sample time.
Power is redundant to Amps, for instance, so just record Amps.
Battery voltage is useful only up until you have verified that you are far from running out of headroom, but the "% POWER" parameter says the same thing.

I'll be curious to see if better time resolution shows a different current draw picture.

later,
Dean P.

Russell Bond · « **Reply #33 on:** November 20, 2010, 04:37:54 AM »

Hi Dean,
Here you go, I did what you said and now I have a better idea about the revs.
There is a difference of 310 RPMs and the temp got to 68c.
Is 310 still ok and also how hot can the contoller safely get?

Russell Bond · « **Reply #34 on:** November 20, 2010, 03:29:48 PM »

I forgot to add that the above graph is of a flight that was flown in turbulence.

I'll try it again on a calmer day and see what the graph says then. (When that will be is "blowing in the wind" as we have had windy weather for a while now. Xmas is just around the corner!!

)

Dean Pappas · « **Reply #35 on:** November 21, 2010, 07:37:25 PM »

Hi Russell,
310 is a good number for peak-to-peak RPM variation. Do you ever hear or feel the governor chasing its tail after a last corner in a maneuver?
If not, then try the next higher governor response speed setting until you do ... then back off a step or two.
Then do the same with the gain.
At any time, if the change in response speed or gain results in a substantial increase in "good air" battery consumption, then go back.

Yeah, I know: it's gonna be time consuming, but think of the practice value! Besides, all these runs will yield goods patterns: none of the needle chasing blues.

As far as ESC temps go, what you see isn't terribly worrisome, but I'd be a lot happier if it was maybe 10 or 20 degrees cooler.
Try improving the airflow to and away from the ESC.

take care,
Dean

Dennis Toth · « **Reply #36 on:** November 22, 2010, 07:54:11 PM »

Guys,

What is a US vendor for the Plettenburg line of motors?

Best, DennisT

Russell Bond · « **Reply #37 on:** November 22, 2010, 09:03:24 PM »

I bought mine from Canada ..... http://www.icare-rc.com/plettenberg.htm

Nine flights yesterday, I was trying to see the difference between 12hz and 16hz on the PWM.
On 16hz the controller runs about 5c hotter. However, the peak to peak variation was less on 16hz.
Same battery heat and about the same motor heat.
This was a warm day and the controller got up to 75c and the motor 70c. (Battery got to 45c)

It will be interesting to see what temps I get at the Nationals at Xmas as the average temps at Dalby (QLD) are about 32.5c.

Rudy Taube · « **Reply #38 on:** November 22, 2010, 09:05:08 PM »

Hi Dennis T,

I don't know of any USA distributer. But I have always used ICARE located in the beautiful country to our north. They are the only North American distributers of Plettenberg that I know of. They are an excellent company to do business with. They have great customer service and tech support. You can call them when you order your Plettenberg motor and tell them how you will mount it and they will make sure the shaft comes out the correct end for your installation. I have a fan on all mine, I feel it is worth a few grams and a few $s. They put the fan on for you too. They are really nice people.

They have a great web site with lots of E stuff and information: http://icare-rc.com/

BTW: They also have many other motors and they are a factory direct distributer for AXI motors.

PS: Sorry for the duplicate post, I guess I was still writing while Russell was posting. ;-)

Regards,

Quote from: stuntguy13 on November 22, 2010, 07:54:11 PM

Guys,

What is a US vendor for the Plettenburg line of motors?

Best, DennisT