Author Topic: New Electric Project (Read 6639 times)

Will Moore · « **on:** March 14, 2011, 07:42:18 PM »

Just thought I'd show you what I've been up to this past Winter.

Airplane is in white primer ( more correctly, white gloss ) right now. Finishing up on color scheme ideas.

Will start painting color as soon as weather warms a bit.

jose modesto · « **Reply #1 on:** March 14, 2011, 07:54:43 PM »

Do I have paint job for you.
Jose

Will Moore · « **Reply #2 on:** March 14, 2011, 08:42:02 PM »

Hi Jose;

You have a paint job for me?

Got any pictures ?

jose modesto · « **Reply #3 on:** March 14, 2011, 09:17:12 PM »

Will click on attachment (paper clip) on my first post
Will sent Email with photo attachment
Jose

Will Moore · « **Reply #4 on:** March 15, 2011, 05:37:59 AM »

That's exactly what I had in mind !

How did you know?

Tell me, Jose, would you repeat the wing design on the stab & elevator, or leave it the way it is?

PerttiMe · « **Reply #5 on:** March 15, 2011, 07:09:42 AM »

... somebody has already done one just like that, except in blue ...

http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=15392.0

Looks good, and that one is in Europe. I'd try to change it a bit anyway, for more individuality.

JohnPrator · « **Reply #6 on:** March 15, 2011, 07:17:48 AM »

Wow, that's going to be a beautiful finish no matter what color you paint it! Really nice, what plane is that?

Will Moore · « **Reply #7 on:** March 15, 2011, 04:55:46 PM »

Quote from: JohnPrator on March 15, 2011, 07:17:48 AM

Wow, that's going to be a beautiful finish no matter what color you paint it! Really nice, what plane is that?

Hi John;

It is the infamous Yatsenko Shark. Their version has a glow setup.

This airplane, I have modified to fly electric. The whole front end has been modified to radial mount an out-runner

electric motor ( Plettenburg 20 or 25 series). It has about

a 60 inch wingspan, and needs a "60" size power plant to perform. The airframe, without the power system,

weighs a mere 32 ounces ! Airplane is built using molds and a similar technique that you would use to manufacture a sailboat.

Very thin balsa shells, about 1/32 " covered with light fiberglass mat and epoxy vacuum sealed.

JohnPrator · « **Reply #8 on:** March 16, 2011, 08:07:55 AM »

Well just looks like a beautiful finish ready for paint. How you guys do that is beyond me, thank God for film or mine would look like they came from Sanford & Son's lot!!

RC Storick · « **Reply #9 on:** March 16, 2011, 04:48:29 PM »

Shinest primer I have ever seen! Can you show me how you made that fuse as I am doing something similar.

This is a electric Yatsinko Shark

jose modesto · « **Reply #10 on:** March 16, 2011, 05:07:29 PM »

Hey Robert they are made in a mold seephotos attached
Photo #1 balsa composite in mold
photo #2 fuse half shells removed from mold (IMPACT FUSE)
Photo #3 two fuse half's being joined in mold to the left you see the raw premolded balsa shell. On the right is the fuse mold for the SV22 NOTE: this is plug that wet balsa is wrapped around that creates the molded balsa
Note: sequence 1) wet balsa and wrap around fuse plug with ace bandages (just like Al Rabe 2) Place in mold with composite material 3) remove from mold, trim flashing and join two half's in mold 4) After joining you can cut out cowling,winging opening and insert crutch and formers
Robert is this what you are doing?
PS Will is not attending the Nat's
Jose Modesto

Lauri Malila · « **Reply #11 on:** March 21, 2011, 02:24:35 PM »

Hi Will.

Looks nice. Especially the paint scheme

How about some pictures from inside of nose?
Did you start with a standard IC engine Shark or was this made especially for e-power since the beginning? I've been pondering the electric version for some time now, and I cannot see many reasons why I could not make it to same weight than with a Real Engine, to about 1600g. I think the biggest problem would be to make Yatsenko Bros. agree with the structural changes. L

Will Moore · « **Reply #12 on:** March 21, 2011, 04:17:43 PM »

Lauri;

1600 grams ( 56.5 oz) is really light ! Is that with 4 ounces of fuel ?

I don't know how you would be able to do that unless you are not considering fuel.

My Shark air frame with white, weighs about 850 grams, ( 30 ounces)

After my trim and a mist of two part automotive clear, I,m expecting to add another 3 ounces.

That brings it up to 33 ounces ( 935 grams)

The power package with spinner, prop, battery, motor, timer, ESC, and wiring, weighs about

another 30 ounces ( 850 grams) which brings the total ready to fly weight to 63 ounces ( 1786 grams)

How are you trimming 7 ounces (198 grams) off the airplane? If you can do it, that's fantastic !

Even at 63 ounces, my airplane is considered light. I still have motor and battery choices which, if I downsize

to a 20 series Plettenberg and use a 3300 mAh 5s TP battery, I can shave another 3 ounces off the weight.

But I won't know if I want to do that, until I fly the machine the way it is now.

Will Moore · « **Reply #13 on:** March 21, 2011, 04:30:44 PM »

Lauri;

The inside of the nose of the Shark is real simple. There is a firewall/ bulkhead installed
for the radial mounted motor, and a shelf about mid way up the fuselage for battery, ESC, and associated wiring.
The shelf extends as far back as I could put it, right up to the bell crank. Actually slightly over it.
That affords a wide range of battery placement for balance, and battery size .
Cooling is no problem as those front end scoops give everything plenty of air.

Will Moore · « **Reply #14 on:** March 21, 2011, 04:31:33 PM »

Pictures:

Will Moore · « **Reply #15 on:** March 21, 2011, 05:46:13 PM »

Lauri;

Paint job is coming along. Thought you would like to see a bit of it.

Lauri Malila · « **Reply #16 on:** March 22, 2011, 04:57:19 AM »

Thanks Will.

No, I did not include the fuel weight. I'm sure that with the 1786g, your plane will fly just fine. And from your starting point, I don't think it could be made much lighter.
I would so much like to have my own molds for the plane, it would open much more possibilities. I'm thinking of:
-Thinner skin shell, maybe 25g glass/0,8-1mm balsa/25g glass or carbon veil sandwich, together with some more ribs and a good carbon/Rohacell main spar would be lighter but perhaps more difficult to handle. I'm used to handle fragile objects.
-Fuse mounted gear. Also, the original wheels are quite heavy.
-Original pushrods & bellcrank can be replaced with lighter ones.
-You don't need so much 1/8" plywood & other hardwood parts in nose construction, the less critical ones can be of balsa or sandwiched from vertical grain balsa and 1/64" plywood or carbon sheet.
-Yuriy's take-apart system is very good but not the lightest possible. Most of the aluminium parts could be replaced with carbon ones.
-There is plenty of screws in the model, the less important ones can be replaced with aluminium ones, and for example the access hatch for flap horn can be mounted simply with cellotape.
-Less vibration and no fuel proofing to worry about: Big saves in finishing.

Well, that was just brainstorming, but I think that every detail counts. Perhaps the best solution would be forget all that and go out practising..

L

Will Moore · « **Reply #17 on:** March 22, 2011, 06:11:40 AM »

Lauri;

I don't know whether it would be good or not to make this any more fragile and lighter.

There is a whole topic currently in discussion on another part of this forum about being too light.

We know it can be too heavy, but there might be an argument for too light.

More importantly, power to weight ratio comes into play, and sometimes overlooked.

If power to weight ratio is a little over the top, and the model isn't a brick, then the motor

can pull the airplane over the rainbow. ( Neil Young - "She can drag me, over the rainbow"...) and get

through any maneuver with confidence, provided airfoil and all the other parameters are met.

Hey, Lauri;

Go practice with that beautiful airplane of yours. Thanks for the paint scheme ideas.

Lauri Malila · « **Reply #18 on:** March 22, 2011, 08:11:34 AM »

You're right Will.

I would not go much under 1600g with Shark; that about the ideal weight for that design. 250g more, still just fine.
I'll go flying once I'm back at home, in less than 2 weeks. Everything is ready to go! L

Will Moore · « **Reply #19 on:** April 29, 2011, 06:43:27 AM »

I finally got paint job done. Have not buffed out yet and I may not.

Final weight without power plant is 36 ounces. I think I put about

6 or 8 ounces of paint. The 2 part poly is what added most of the paint weight.

The color is automotive water based. I sanded the model down to bare balsa and

applied a very light coat of white as a base, and misted a one coat of u 2 part urethane

I did that so that the white would not lift as I removed masking tape during trim work.

The paint scheme is a variation on Lauri Malila's beautiful Shark , posted on the "paint and finishing" area

of the Forum.

I think it came out not so bad.

Will Moore · « **Reply #20 on:** April 29, 2011, 06:52:01 AM »

More pics

Matt Colan · « **Reply #21 on:** April 29, 2011, 04:20:39 PM »

It looks GREAT Will!!!! Looking foward to seeing it this year!

Howard Rush · « **Reply #22 on:** April 29, 2011, 04:43:26 PM »

Quote from: JohnPrator on March 16, 2011, 08:07:55 AM

Well just looks like a beautiful finish ready for paint. How you guys do that is beyond me, thank God for film or mine would look like they came from Sanford & Son's lot!!

Here's how they do it: http://discovery-aeromodels.com/en/andrey-yatsenko-mace-r2-shark-model.html . You don't need any film.

Will Moore · « **Reply #23 on:** April 29, 2011, 08:24:24 PM »

Thanks for the comment, Matt.

What are you flying this year. Will you be at the Wrentham and Lee events this year ?

Dennis Adamisin · « **Reply #24 on:** April 30, 2011, 08:00:02 PM »

Will - GREAT job with the new bird. Nice weight too. Gonna be one of the best Sharks ever because of that smooth power (and a LH prop?)

Matt Colan · « **Reply #25 on:** May 01, 2011, 07:54:21 AM »

Quote from: Will Moore on April 29, 2011, 08:24:24 PM

Thanks for the comment, Matt.

What are you flying this year. Will you be at the Wrentham and Lee events this year ?

We won't be at Wrentham, but are planning to be at Lee. I'm going to have the Trivial Pursuit for competition this year. I'm still in the painting process and waiting until it's done to post pics of it.

Will Moore · « **Reply #26 on:** May 01, 2011, 11:09:57 AM »

Quote from: Dennis Adamisin on April 30, 2011, 08:00:02 PM

Will - GREAT job with the new bird. Nice weight too. Gonna be one of the best Sharks ever because of that smooth power (and a LH prop?)

Dennis;

Just test flew it this morning using a 13/ 4.5 pusher. Flew 5.2 sec laps, on 64 foot .018 lines

I trimmed using a 3900 5 cell TP -lite, in one minute flights, then jumped over to a 3300 5 cell for a 5min30sec flight

Airplane only used 1800 mAh. I like the prop but want to bring rpm's down a bit.

Might go to a 13/6 pusher APC.

Allan Perret · « **Reply #27 on:** May 01, 2011, 01:25:04 PM »

Quote from: Will Moore on April 29, 2011, 06:43:27 AM

I finally got paint job done. Have not buffed out yet and I may not.

Final weight without power plant is 36 ounces. I think I put about

6 or 8 ounces of paint. The 2 part poly is what added most of the paint weight.

The color is automotive water based. I sanded the model down to bare balsa and

applied a very light coat of white as a base, and misted a one coat of u 2 part urethane

I did that so that the white would not lift as I removed masking tape during trim work.

The paint scheme is a variation on Lauri Malila's beautiful Shark , posted on the "paint and finishing" area

of the Forum.

I think it came out not so bad.

It came out a lot better than "not so bad".
Can you be give more details on your finishing process.
What brand paint did you use?
What did you use for the filler coats ?
"and misted a one coat of u 2 part urethane" was this a clear coat ?

Dean Pappas · « **Reply #28 on:** May 02, 2011, 11:37:50 AM »

Good to hear, Will.
It's really easy to heat-twist that 4.5" pitch to a 5 or 5.5, and sure enough things will get real quiet, all of a sudden.
It's amazing how the tip buzziness is drops abruptly when you hit the right prop tip speed.
bravo again,
Dean P.

Lauri Malila · « **Reply #29 on:** May 02, 2011, 02:59:57 PM »

Meanwhile in Switzerland..

L

Will Moore · « **Reply #30 on:** May 02, 2011, 03:24:00 PM »

Lauri;

What are you up to? Where did you get another Shark so fast ?

Are you going to try electric ?

We might be creating a movement !

Will Moore · « **Reply #31 on:** May 02, 2011, 05:46:12 PM »

Quote from: Allan Perret on May 01, 2011, 01:25:04 PM

It came out a lot better than "not so bad".
Can you be give more details on your finishing process.
What brand paint did you use?
What did you use for the filler coats ?
"and misted a one coat of u 2 part urethane" was this a clear coat ?

Allan: The brand name of the paint is "Auto Air", made by Createx
all paints are in the 4200 series and all are semi-opaque,
Deep Black, Brite White, Flame Red.

They must be mixed with a reducer . I used 4010 medium dry reducer ih a 5-1 ratio, which seems to
work fine. You can always add more.
clearcoat is standard PPG 2 part Urethane

I applied a clear coat over the white to minimize any pull back of the white when taking masking tape off
after application of trim, then misted another clear coat over the trim to stabilize all the trim colors,
then a full clear coat after it set up about 15-20 minutes.

Hope this helps.

Dennis Adamisin · « **Reply #32 on:** May 02, 2011, 05:47:29 PM »

Quote from: Will Moore on May 02, 2011, 03:24:00 PM

Lauri;

What are you up to? Where did you get another Shark so fast ?

Are you going to try electric ?

We might be creating a movement !

Sheesz maybe you guys could do your own SHARK WEEK!

Will Moore · « **Reply #33 on:** May 02, 2011, 05:56:12 PM »

Quote from: Dennis Adamisin on May 02, 2011, 05:47:29 PM

Sheesz maybe you guys could do your own SHARK WEEK!

I know Dennis, I mean , come on !

By the way, this electric version flies incredibly. The Plettenberg 20-18 is very efficient

and I was very surprised how efficient the airframe is. Jose Modesto suggested to me

today, to try the Plettenberg 15 series motor to save even more weight. I'm going to check out the stats.

Dennis Adamisin · « **Reply #34 on:** May 03, 2011, 04:36:06 AM »

Quote from: Will Moore on May 02, 2011, 05:56:12 PM

I know Dennis, I mean , come on !

By the way, this electric version flies incredibly. The Plettenberg 20-18 is very efficient

and I was very surprised how efficient the airframe is. Jose Modesto suggested to me

today, to try the Plettenberg 15 series motor to save even more weight. I'm going to check out the stats.

Hmmm, given your power usage (1800 mah) you might save MORE weight by going to a 5Sx2650 or similar...

Will Moore · « **Reply #35 on:** May 03, 2011, 03:22:15 PM »

Quote from: Dennis Adamisin on May 03, 2011, 04:36:06 AM

Hmmm, given your power usage (1800 mah) you might save MORE weight by going to a 5Sx2650 or similar...
[

Dennis: I only see Thunder Power 2600 mAh 5 cell batteries on their web. They are about 3 ounces lighter than the 3300mAh
so it would be a great idea.

   But, if I continue to draw 1800 to 1900mAh per flight ( and that was a 5min 30 sec flight which does not quite allow me to
   finish the pattern properly - because it gave the 5 sec shut off warning, coming out of the four leaf clover) so probably I will draw
   more like 1900 to 1950mAh of energy form the battery, which is borderline close to 75% usage, if my math is right, would I not
   be pushing the battery life envelope ?

   Your thoughts

Crist Rigotti · « **Reply #36 on:** May 03, 2011, 03:44:56 PM »

TP has new G6 Pro Lite batteries that are 5 Cell 2700mah. 292 grams ( mine weighed 298 grams).

Dennis Adamisin · « **Reply #37 on:** May 03, 2011, 05:40:44 PM »

Hi Will

I agree, 5:30 could be a little "chummy" I had mine set like that but decided it was too tight, went to about 5:45 - that is comfortable, maybe even TOO long!

I agree that you are in a near-optimum zone for battery capacity, but I think there are a few things that could work in your favor.

First off, Crist pointed out some slighter higher capacity cells that also add to your margin.

I think 3 oz off of a 60 oz bird is a pretty good prize. If/when you save weight you use less power. If the lighter weight let's you peel another 100 RPM off your setting you can save a little more power. Because you are so close those two things could trade off for the extra 3 laps in your flight time. If you are flying in any kind of wind at all your battery usage will go down some.

You said something about trying a 13x6.5P, don't know what that will do to your power usage but it MIGHT work in your favor?

Get a few more flights in the bank and get some solid history on your power usage, then decide if its worth a try at the lighter pack...

Will Moore · « **Reply #38 on:** May 03, 2011, 06:56:56 PM »

Thanks, Christ and Dennis

I think I will do just that. I will check out the new TP battery. and the extra 100mAh might bring it within the 25%rule. Version 2 2600mAh weighs in at about 10 ounces

And I WAS thinking of increasing flight time by only 15 seconds just like you are doing. That would give about 3 extra laps, plus or minus. That's tight, isn't it?!

Thanks for the advise. I will keep you posted.

Christ: breaking news, the new pro-lite 2700mAh 5 cell G6 battery weighs 10.2 ounces which is as heavy as the V2 Pro Lite 3300 5 cell, so there
doesn't seem to be an advantage. I would be better with same weight and more capacity, right?

Dennis: I flew the bird with a 13/ 6.5 pusher APC and it used about 75 mAh more than the 4.5. But it flew much more quietly.

Crist Rigotti · « **Reply #39 on:** May 03, 2011, 07:58:48 PM »

Will,
I would think that more capacity would be a good thing. A 5S 3300 pack that weighs 10.2 ounces is very light. With all due respect did you weigh the battery correctly?

BTW, I might have missed it, but what RPM are you running?

Will Moore · « **Reply #40 on:** May 04, 2011, 05:54:04 AM »

Quote from: Crist Rigotti on May 03, 2011, 07:58:48 PM

Will,
I would think that more capacity would be a good thing. A 5S 3300 pack that weighs 10.2 ounces is very light. With all due respect did you weigh the battery correctly?

BTW, I might have missed it, but what RPM are you running?

Christ: I just weighed the 3300 5 cell. My mistake, it weighs 13.9 ounces, so your suggestion to use their new 2700 might just work, and it would
save me 3 ounces. I have not tached the bird yet as I adjust the FM-9 to get a lap speed of around 5.1 to 5.3 seconds., but I expect with the
6.5 pusher 13 inch APC , I'm in the range of around 8500 to 9000 rpm

JohnPrator · « **Reply #41 on:** May 04, 2011, 06:32:44 AM »

Quote from: Howard Rush on April 29, 2011, 04:43:26 PM

Here's how they do it: http://discovery-aeromodels.com/en/andrey-yatsenko-mace-r2-shark-model.html . You don't need any film.

Hi Howard,

I still don't see it, am I missing something on the website? Are they ARF's or something along those lines??

Will Moore · « **Reply #42 on:** May 04, 2011, 06:40:49 AM »

John;

Mr Rush is referring to the fact that you can get these birds fully assembled and painted and ready to fly from this web-site.

These are the Yatsenko brothers that have designed and sell these airplanes world-wide to those who want a ready to fly bird out

of the box, pre-flown and pre-trimmed. You can also purchase these airplanes in the component state and finish the construction / assembly / modifications/paint

yourself.

Will Moore · « **Reply #43 on:** May 04, 2011, 06:44:52 AM »

Thank you, Christ and Dennis and Dean for the helpful suggestions. I ordered 2 of the new 3700 mAh 5 cell G6 Pro-Lite batteries

and should have them in a few days. I will let you know how it goes.

Crist Rigotti · « **Reply #44 on:** May 04, 2011, 08:10:33 AM »

Will,
Just out of curosity, where did you order your batteries from? I've had some on order form RCLipos for 2 weeks now and they are finally going to ship them Thursday.

Will Moore · « **Reply #45 on:** May 04, 2011, 08:17:18 PM »

Christ;

I order my batteries through Dragonfly Innovations, / RC toys at http://www.rctoys.com/

They are out of Canada but ship fast. I'm expecting mine within 2 days.

Crist Rigotti · « **Reply #46 on:** May 04, 2011, 09:01:56 PM »

Thanks Will. I just looked and I see them listed as Pro Power and not Pro Lites. I did look at them before I ordered from RCLipos, but was thrown off by not seeing Pro Lite. Looks like a good place to buy stuff. Thanks.

JohnPrator · « **Reply #47 on:** May 05, 2011, 07:21:55 AM »

Quote from: Will Moore on May 04, 2011, 06:40:49 AM

John;

Mr Rush is referring to the fact that you can get these birds fully assembled and painted and ready to fly from this web-site.

These are the Yatsenko brothers that have designed and sell these airplanes world-wide to those who want a ready to fly bird out

of the box, pre-flown and pre-trimmed. You can also purchase these airplanes in the component state and finish the construction / assembly / modifications/paint

yourself.

Ahhhh, I see. I don't see any prices on their website so I'm guessing they are quite expensive! What does a component kit run about, do you know? Sure are pretty planes.

John

Will Moore · « **Reply #48 on:** June 04, 2011, 06:28:11 PM »

Quote from: JohnPrator on May 05, 2011, 07:21:55 AM

Ahhhh, I see. I don't see any prices on their website so I'm guessing they are quite expensive! What does a component kit run about, do you know? Sure are pretty planes.

John

John; Sorry I did not see this question, and am very late in the reply:

You have to talk to them and negotiate price. Price depends on extend of component kit you get and how far along in manufacturing
before you take it. They price everything in Euros, and they want to be paid in US dollars, wired to them, then they ship. You talk through e-mail. And yes, they are expensive.
Last I heard, a finished model, pre-flown and pre-trimmed, ready to fly, approaches $3,800 US dollars, depending on the value of the Dollar / Euro exchange.

Howard Rush · « **Reply #49 on:** June 05, 2011, 06:17:10 PM »

You get what you pay for.