stunthanger.com
Electric Stunt => Gettin all AMP'ed up! => Topic started by: frank carlisle on April 14, 2007, 01:41:23 PM
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I didn't plan on buying an Electric Super Clown when I went down to the Toledo Model Expo today. But I wound up bringing one home.
It's one stop shopping from Brodaak. All the components are sold seperaetly but you can get it all in one place. And for this particular model.
I thought after I sold my electric Smoothie I was done with it. However I thought it would be fun to check this one out and see how it goes together and how it works.
The picture shows everything I bought at Brodak's. It's all in stock. If you guys would like I can keep you posted as to how it all works.
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Hi Frank,
Congrats on the electric Super Clown purchase. There has been some good discussion about the Clown here on StuntHanger. The Super Clown (Brodak) is one stop shopping, but a few flaws showed up in the final production run :(. All the info you need to get it up and flying successfully is here on SH. If you still have questions, I'd be glad to help.
BTW, welcome back. ;D
Mike
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Check out the review.
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I checked out the review and it seems pretty straight forward.
I'm never going to get into electric the way the rest of you guys are. All the guages and meters are Greek to me. And the language you use may as well be Latin. ........BUT.....I had a lot of fun with my Smoothie and I'm sure the Super Clown will be a blast also.
The main reason I got the Clown was because as far as I know it's the first c/l electric that comes with all of the components which should make it so a guy that is just getting started shouldn't have to do any guess work at all. It'll be traveling around for guys to check out.
Next Saturday I'm taking all the stuff up to Flint where I will be flying with the locals. While up there I'm going to hand the Super Clown and components over to John Paris. He'll be assembling it and running comparisons between it and a couple of ARF Clown's with IC engines.
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One comment I'll make is that I have been having problems with my vertical eights and hourglass. The plane doesn't tuck under on the top part of the loop (where I'm pulling down elevator) and I end up bailing out.
Just looked at it today and noticed the controls are "springy". Took off the elevator pushrod and the springiness went away. So now I am cutting the CA hinges and will sew some hinges. The hinge material still inside the stab and elevator makes a nice solid foundation to hold the thread!
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Just a reply to my last reply, the sewn hinges seem to have solved my problem of near-loss of control input in the upper part of the vertical 8 and hour glass. So I recommend NOT to use the supplied CyA Hinges on the elevator. With the sewn hinges on the elevator and Dubro hinges on the flaps, the controls feel nice and loose now.
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Thanks for the heads up on the hinges Alan.
John Paris will be assembling and trimming out this model. I'd lready done one with my electric Smoothie and John's been thinking about electric so it's only natural that he'd do this one.
re you using the rest of the electric gear that Brodak supplies?
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In the review I am using all Brodak stock powertrain. I recommend the Graupner 9-4 "CAM" prop. It gives a nice flying speed. A normal APC 9-4 might work well too. An APC 9-4.5 "Thin Electric" prop is too fast, unless you take some of the pitch out like Mike did. Typically an electric prop is thinner and thus maybe a little more efficient than the thicker glow prop.
One complaint I have is that I wish the Brodak timer had a small pot to adjust the throttle on the Speed Control. It would open up the prop selections a bit if you had a small amount of adjustment.
I am experimenting now with a non-stock ESC and timer. Hope to learn a little and perhaps use it to adjust the standard stock setup to give me a little lighter flying plane. Stock setup is ~33oz.
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Hi Alan,
I think you (and maybe a few others) have mentioned wanting more adjustability from the Brodak setup. I fully agree to get the most out of the setup you need more adjustments, but that was not the intention of the Brodak electric package.
The intentions were to get a first time electric flier in the air successfully with a plug and play power system, no adjustments needed (eliminate the variables), for as little money as possible, without sacrificing to much in the process. Our hopes were that you can go flying knowing you will have a safe load on the motor, battery and ESC, meaning there are no extra volt/amp/temp meters needed. KISS.......
If you (or anyone) purchased the Brodak package and learned enough from it to do their own experimenting, it did it's job quite well. You may have known this already, but I wanted to be sure you knew the intentions of the product, and didn't assume it was put together cheaply.
Mike
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Mike, I've been using Brodak stuff for years and I've grown accustomed to always having great quality.
I figured your association with the E-Clown pretty much guaranteed it would work just fine.
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Mike,
I certainly understand the original "thrust" of the Brodak offering. However I think it is possible to "improve" the product, consistent with the original design goals.
In the case of the timer, having something you could adjust (lets say from top throttle to 80%) would really be nice. I doubt that can happen on the current stock, but perhaps in a future product.
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Where can I get a Brodak Electric model and set up? I could not find it in their website.
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Alan,
I just wanted to be sure you knew the original intentions :). I think the best way to improve the Clown is to offer upgrades separately. Offer it as a plug and play system (for the guys who are green), or let the user pick and choose from an adjustable timer and ESC. I guess you grow out of the stock setup fairly quick. Hopefully Brodak persues more electric projects and offers a larger variety of products.
Fernando,
You can purchase the electric Super Clown at www.Brodak.com.
Mike
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It's a good deal for the "green guy" and for guys like me that don't want to have to think too much about it.
I still have a first generation Zigras timer.
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Frank,
The E-SC is starting to get out of the box. I have reviewed the directions and pulled the fuse out for its shrinking, but got distracted with a phone call. There is always tomorrow....
John
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Frank,
The E-SC is starting to get out of the box. I have reviewed the directions and pulled the fuse out for its shrinking, but got distracted with a phone call. There is always tomorrow....
John
That's excellent news John. I'm glad you got it started. I think everything you'll need to complete it is there except for the prop.
Make sure to post some pictures as you go along. I think a lot of the guys would like to see how it goes together for you. You may be able to shed additional light on it.
BTW----I just got 4 more Brodak .40s today. John B only got 50 of them in the last shipment. That was just enough to fill some backorders, They wound up out of stock the same day they arrived.
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What was the total cost at the show?..thnx, Bob
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I think total cost was around $300-----John has all the stuff now and the prices are on the labels. He'll tally it up.
Close as I can figure the battery will be equal to nearly a hundred dollars worth of fuel. So getting the E-SC is like getting a few gallons of fuel along with the plane.
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Frank,
Here are the round numbers for your purchase:
Item Cost
Airplane $70
Motor $59
Controller $70
Battery $94
Charger $70
Balancer $70
Total $433
These are from the prices shown on the packages.
John
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Yes for the first plane that cost is $433. But if you consider that the battery and charger and balancer would be interchangeable with a second plane. Say a Arf flight Steak-- All you'd need to buy for the second plane would be the plane, motor and speedcotroller which would only cost around two hundred bucks.
Plus---your battery is going to give you a lot of flights. I think the number I heard was 500 charges. From what I was told you can get two 6 1/2 minute flights off of one charge. 2 flights X 500 charges = 1,000 flights. The fuel equivalent would be about 3 ounces per flight or 42 or 43 flights per gallon. By my math you'd use about 20 gallons to get a thousand flights and that would be by running the engine lean. So at $12 a gallon it would cost you around $220 dollars of liquid fuel to get the same mileage from a $90 dollar battery.
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Hi Frank,
I'm afraid that the 2 flights per charge claim is very likely an exageration.
In addition, running the batteries too low is the one thing that will hurt them in relatively few charge cycles.
As for number of cycles, there are all sorts of claims and a fiar amount of outright BS ...
Let me add mine. For batteries that are used hard enough for competition: i.e. 80% used in 6 minutes, I expect better than 150 cycles, but not a whole lot more before you see some degradation. They may suffice another 50 to 100 for Sport at lesser current draw.
Still, that ain't half bad, and if Sport is the goal, there are battery sources popping up at 60% of the prices we are used to.
I'll go look for the last one I found.
All the Best,
Dean P.
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Hi Frank,
I agree with Dean on the number of cycles.
I can also tell you that the Brodak 4000mah battery with the "stock" power system configuration will only give you 6.5-7min of flight time per charge.
Mike
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Hi Frank,
I agree with Dean on the number of cycles.
I can also tell you that the Brodak 4000mah battery with the "stock" power system configuration will only give you 6.5-7min of flight time per charge.
Mike
Well Mike.....Those cycle numbers are sure a lot different than what I was told. Dang!!
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John, based on getting one 6 1/2 or seven minute run per charge you might need another battery. If you like I can get another one to you by the time you're ready to do some analysis of the system, and flight comparisons with an IC powered Super Clown.
Was there any info on the motor in the packaging?
I'm curious to know how long it takes to charge the battery with the charger supplied. And also how the charger works. Do you plug it into the wall or to a car battery?
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Hi again Frank,
If you are using a little less battery, say 2/3 of capacity in the nominal 6 minutes, the battery life could easily be double what I quoted you.
The same small group of competent folks I am watching for battery life estimates in the Pattern world are showing battery failures in between 150 and as many as 250 flights, but they are running above 80A from a 5 A-H pack. That's over 16C! I am ignoring the folks who toast 'em in 30 flights. That is a matter of misuse. The above spread in lifetimes when run at 16C at full throttle tells me that we will do at least as well. In CLPA, we are running around 7C with peaks (due to governor action) of maybe 10 or 11C.
Sport use can be a bunch gentler than competition. Try these guys for inexpensive packs. They are maybe 10% heavier per capacity and C rating than the high-priced spread. Build lighter and it won't matter! http://www.commonsenserc.com
Take care All,
Dean
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Thanks Dean
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Frank,
At the risk of boiling off your neurons, check out this thread, http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=4289.0
where I had my first SuperClown flight. If you scroll down, I have a plot which shows how the entire stock Brodak SuperClown and propulsion system performed. Prop was a Graupner 9-4 CAM. If you look at the red trace on the plot, it shows you how much of the battery I used. Actually the legend is even better, it tells you I used 2564maH of the 4000 maH battery (actually my Astro 109 charger claims it is a 4500maHr battery!). My flight was 6 minutes total (that's what I set the timer to). This time includes the time the prop power was being used as I walked out to the handle. Anyway I think you would really be pushing it to get two 5 minute flights in. I have never gone for two tries. It does make progress a little slow.I'm too cheap to buy another battery, but honestly the Brodak battery is really a good deal at the price.
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Frank,
I got all of the parts smoothed out and took the time to look them over a bit (the kit is typical Brodak ARF). I had thought that this would be an add-on style kit to conver the current Brodak SC ARF to the e-version. Not the case. The fuse is unique for this version in that the nose does not have the typical hardwood bearers, rather it has a built up area to support the front motor mount. There is also a cut out area for the controller. The rear has been lightened with 4 cut out areas.
The wing has an additional rib to close in the motor box. There are 2 cut outs. One in the front for the battery and one in the rear (top and bottom) for ventilation. The planking has also been widened a bit on the battery side.
Attached are some pics to illustrate what I was talking about.
John
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Frank,
At the risk of boiling off your neurons, check out this thread, http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=4289.0
where I had my first SuperClown flight. If you scroll down, I have a plot which shows how the entire stock Brodak SuperClown and propulsion system performed. Prop was a Graupner 9-4 CAM. If you look at the red trace on the plot, it shows you how much of the battery I used. Actually the legend is even better, it tells you I used 2564maH of the 4000 maH battery (actually my Astro 109 charger claims it is a 4500maHr battery!). My flight was 6 minutes total (that's what I set the timer to). This time includes the time the prop power was being used as I walked out to the handle. Anyway I think you would really be pushing it to get two 5 minute flights in. I have never gone for two tries. It does make progress a little slow.I'm too cheap to buy another battery, but honestly the Brodak battery is really a good deal at the price.
Thanks Alan, I guess I'll give up on getting two runs per charge. However I do plan on getting a couple more batteries. So the charging should be easier.
John Paris is actually building the model and getting it set up. He'll be doing all of the initial flying and evaluating of the system.
When I had my electric Smoothie I hated charging and baby sitting the batteries. All of that seems really inconvenient.
What I can't figure is why someone hasn't come up with a faster way to charge the batteries. Why is it that you can exhaust the battery in 6 or 7 minutes but it takes over an hour to juice it back up?
John, thanks for the pix and the running dialogue on the progress of this model. Keep up the good work,man.
It took a minute to see what the first two pics were. Once I saw it was the fuselage being held up to the light to reveal the framework it all came clear. Is it possible to get comparitive weights of the IC and the E Super Clowns without powertrain hardware?
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So Frank,
You are not even the Assembler of the Model? LL~
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So Frank,
You are not even the Assembler of the Model? LL~
No Alan I am not. The Electric Super Clown far as I can tell is the first one stop shopping model of it's kind. So I bought it because I thought it was a significant milestone in electric control line. And John is putting it together and flying and evaluating it because he's more scienterrific than me. He'll journal and jot numbers and make charts. So he'll be able to accurately define how it works.
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So Frank,
You are not even the Assembler of the Model? LL~
Alan,
I owe a lot of my ARF assembling experience to Frank. Of course there are fringe benefits in it for me otherwise he would be assembling. Besides this is a good way for me to get my feet "wet" in e-flying.
John
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Of course I realize that after building the LA Heat, Frank's day job is figuring out how to transport it to the field!
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Of course I realize that after building the LA Heat, Frank's day job is figuring out how to transport it to the field!
o my...... LL~
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ATTENTION ALAN HAHN-------------or anyone using the Brodak charger and battery.
How long does it take for the battery to charge?
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Hi Frank,
It should take 1.5-2hrs because the charger is only capable of charging @ 2amps. Again, it was another compromise and at the time there were no affordable chargers available that were capable of charging a 3S lipo at 4amps.
I haven't looked recently, so I am not sure if one is available yet. I know there are many $100 plus chargers that will do the job, but that didn't fit the bill.
Mike
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I don't have the charger--not sure it existed when I bought my Super Clown. Already had a charger (Astro 109) from an electric RC Arf (Sig E-Force, little electric brother to the Sig P-Force). To be honest, once you begin testing the water, you end up jumping all the way in! Also try to find commonalities between things---like common LiPo's if possible, ESC's...... Sometimes it works, sometimes not.
I agree with Mike that everything is a compromise. In this case I think Brodak et al were trying as hard as possible to keep the costs down.
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SEE...............that charging time is the deal breaker for me.....I got a multi-plex charger when I put the Smoothie together that took 75 mins....
I really dislike baby sitting batteries.
I did order another battery from Brodak today and Bob Branch has a charger he said cost about $60 and replenishes batteries in 45 mins. Still......it's easier to squirt in 5 0z. of fuel - fly - and be done with no worry about your energy source.
Yup I'm grousing about this.............
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Hi Gang,
Hi Frank,
It should take 1.5-2hrs because the charger is only capable of charging @ 2amps. Again, it was another compromise and at the time there were no affordable chargers available that were capable of charging a 3S lipo at 4amps.
I haven't looked recently, so I am not sure if one is available yet. I know there are many $100 plus chargers that will do the job, but that didn't fit the bill.
Mike
If and only if you are going to buy batteries with balance connectors, then the FMA CellPro will do nicely, charge at 4A, and balance all at the same time. No need to buy a separate balancer. $$
Dean
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Dean---you got a link to the---FMA Cell Pro?
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Hey Guys,
Sorry I was out of the office for the weekend, but needed to spend some quality time with the family in the woods of northern Michigan looking for mushrooms, picking leeks, riding quads and seeing some deer and elk (a herd of 24 made the little woman and I take a momentary break while they slowly cleared the trail). Time well spent to be sure....
The construction on the E-SC is coming along. I installed the hinges on the wing and glued the tail in place this evening after doing a little running around. The flaps will probably glued in yet tonight and I will try to take a shot or two of my technique to share (only because I have not seen it here on the net yet). With some luck, I will have the airplane framed up tomorrow and then can start working on installing the power system. I will be sure to get some good shots of this to share with the group.
Sorry there is not too much for an update for this evening, but I am still poking along on it.
John
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John, can you see into the battery compartment well enough to see what they did to hold it together without a leading edge?
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Frank,
The whole thing is boxed in. There are ribs on either side and the sheeting on the top and bottom with the back glued to some spars. The front is reinforced with a few extra pieces of wood. I will pop some pics tomorrow for better detail.
John
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Frank,
Most of the batteries say to charge them at 1C--that means for the Brodak Battery 4Amps for 1 hr. The constant for these lipo's is 1 hr. I have seen some give a slightly higher rate, and on those I guess it would be fine. However charging these LiPO's is a little like working with live ammo. I would follow the directions!
John,
I had to sand the inner spar to fit the stock battery in.
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Not to worry Alan-----I'll follow the directios.
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I must say I have been bitten by the Electric Clown. The Clown flies great, I went to Florida with it, no fuel, mess, or smell.and it flies great. I had problems at the start but now I am a experienced electric pilot. The charger I use is a Triton II and it takes about 55 minutes to charge after a 6 minute run, I have 2 batteries and the turn around at our field in flying season is about 1 1/2 hours so I have no problem flying. Jose Modesto flew the Clown and was amazed at the flight and the quietness of electric. Mike Pal co was a great help as the first controller did not work, John Brodak was outstanding in helping me . I now have about 25 flites on the Clown And the covering is perfect, no oil or fuel to mess things up.I thank Mike and John again I am really enjoying this New Electric Clown. See YA NEAL
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Thanks Neal.......It's great to hear from another Sup[er Clown owner.
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Getting a little more done. Here it is in one piece.
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Here are the pics of the battery slot:
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Finally, the hinging technique I use. The Pacer Hinge Glue seems to work pretty well and the syringe is great to control the mess and place the glue in the right spots.
John
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I never saw the Pacer glue and syringe before John. Are they standard issue hobby supply items?
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Frank,
The Pacer glue is standard issue stuff found at many hobby retailers. The syringes I have purchased from farming supply stores. I think that something similar may be available at some LHSs, but not 100% sure.
John
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The hobby shop hooked me up to the Pacer glue its great and so easy to use. I too put pinned hinges on my Clown and a Carbon rod for the push rod thats the only changes that I made on the Clown, and thats the only changes I would make again ,the Clown is a great flying plane.The Battery box had to be shaved a little top & bottom for the battery to fit , the velcro holds the battery secure. I do know if you make a lawn dart out of the Clown you will have battery problems. Also I placed three 1/4 inch holes in the front behind the prop for cooling in between the engine bolts.Also when you Epoxy the nose piece on make sure it is at 0 degrees the motor pulls apart so put the motor on ( front without can) apart to check the length of the bolts mine were too short. See Ya NEAL ~^ ~^
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Hi Neal,
Did you glass the nose or just epoxy the nose ring in place? If not, I recommend glassing the nose before you fly it again. I will do it for you at Brodaks if you don't do it!!!
Mike
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Spoilsport!
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Mike I have glass & epoxy It seems secure I love flying it. Also I will not be at Brodaks this year I need Rotator Cuff Surgery, and its in for May 18 so I will not be flying this Summer. I glassed the Inside not the whole nose and the prop is balanced. I Will try this weekend to get some flying in ,I changed the controls to slow it down ,I also want to move the battery a 1/4 inch forward,I know the Philly Flyer's like the planes tail heavy. See YA NEAL
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What prop are you using Neal?
Far as I can tell John Paris will be flying my Electric Super Clown this weekend. I spoke to him earlier today and he said he'd probably have a report and pix to post this evening.
John will likely have the plane at Brodak's this year.
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Sounds like John has a sweet job. People buy him planes to put together and fly! :!
Hope he can bring the E-Super Clown to our July 1 Contest. It isn't sponsored or at Fermilab this year (I wasn't sure I would be around to help Fred, so it is a TreeTown event this year), but at the Aurora Airport in Sugar Grove (where the normal TreeTown Contest has been held).
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Yeah Alan---it's good work when you can get it. I've lost count of how many ARFs he's put together. This is the first one he's kept for flying though.
John makes it there for your contest every year doesn't he?
If he wants to take the Electric Super Clown with him that'll be fine with me. Maybe I can make it this year too. BUT--gas is $3.05 a gallon here and it isn't likely to get cheaper. Maybe we can carpool. Today I put $20 in the tank and went home. I had just enough gas left to make it back to the gas station. Schwinn is starting to have a nice sound to it.
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Everyone,
I did get everything finally assembled this evening and charged the battery using the Brodak charger and balancer while I mowed the grass. Since it was the first charge for the battery, I am not sure if the results I had were indicative of normal use. However, it appeared to be close to fully charged after 1.5 hours at the 2 amp setting. Now I say appeared because the lights on the charger were flashing between "charging" and "fully charged". According to the manual that is some type of error mode. I lowered the input current to 1.5A and got the same results after some time. I will have to see how things go with future charges. While this is a good functional starting charger system, I can already see the benefit of more advanced charges to really get an idea of what is going in/what came out of your battery.
The controller's button for the changing of time was a little tricky, but I was eventually able to set it to the 5 minute mark for the first test run. The start button gives you about 5 seconds or so before the prop starts, so either a partner or a stooge will be needed for flying. My test run was with the 8-4 APC-E prop. There was enough thrust to hold the airplane vertical, so I will keep that one on for flight #1. I do have the 9-4.5 available as well for future tuning work. The fit for the ESC was a little tight in the hole provided, but I shoehorned it in there. The placment of the timing/start switch is convenient, but a bit unsightly as is the on-off switch. I am sure that I will find another way to mount them, but will leave them alone for now.
Attached are some of the final assembly pics and placement of the ESC.
Alan,
I will probably play with this thing as long as Frank lets me. Glad to hear that your contest is still on, but why the move? Are they going to use that run up pad at Aurora for this contest like they did last year?
John
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John you can play with it as long as you care too. y1
But------please tell me that the placement of the timer and switch are only a temporary thing and not according to plan......please, oh please!!
Nice pix by the way. Thankyou.
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Frank,
That is the way they say to do it. Since I am new at this, I am not one to question. Of course, with your permission, I may make some changes.
John
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Hi John,
I never got a copy of the directions telling you to mount the timer and switch on top of the fuse. ??? It is ugly and has the rigged look to it. I'm with Frank, change it!!! haha
Did you put any epoxy between the fiberglass cowl and the fuselage or did you just screw/bolt it in place?
Check the temperature of the ESC on a ground run before you fly. I am not sure how much cooling it will get stuffed in that cutout.
Looks good so far!! Nice outlined build thread also. I have directed several people who have had questions about the Super Clown to this thread and the review thread.
Mike
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~^ i use a APC Electric 9/6 and its stock, I also fly on 62Foot 012 lines I am surprised at how well the Clown handles on 62 foot lines.I also use the Stooge as I think it's safer for me to start the motor the guys at the field are not into launching a non running motor . I press the button, the light is lit and about half way out to the handle it starts running, so no way can you use the timer to launch.I am always thinking safety as I cut myself years ago fooling with electric motors.SEE YA NEAL
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??? Sorry for the wrong information I use an APC Electric 9X5.4 suggested by Mike Palco.I changed the Elevator to the bottom hole and in the wind of New York City today it was really grooving,now anyone will be able to fly it .With an old EZ Just it turns corners great. SEE YA NEAL ;D ;D
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I'll get this one for you Neal...... ;D It's a APC-E 9x4.5. Sounds like she is really performing to be handling the wind on 62' lines. Wish you were going to be at Brodaks. I better see you flying the Clown at one of the Jersey meets!!!
Mike
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John,
I got another battery for you from Brodak yesterday..........................I'll check with Bob and Rick and see if one of them will sell me a charger (they both have multiples) for yard sale prices.
I think we should get along on these two batteries for now. Probably should put the money into four cell batts at some point. I wonder if the E-SC set up can handle a 4 cell?
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Everyone,
Flew the E-SC today. The airplane was straight and the line tension was good with 8-4 APC-E prop on 58'x.015". It did not seem exceedingly fast with this combination. I set it to run for 5 minutes and just played around with the maneuvers to see how it would fly. It hung out there fine with a little sag in the motor speed when the nose was pointed up (airplane climbing). I did encounter some stalls on vertical 8 and the square 8s I did. To counter this I may try a little bit of tail weight and also will try to ease into the maneuvers a little more. BTW, the ready to fly weight came in at 32.2 oz with the balance about on the front lead-out.
Now that I have 2 charges on the battery and a run or two on the motor, I have questions.
1. With the Brodak charger and balancer it says that a steady green light on the charger means that the battery is fully charged. The best I can get is a flashing back and forth between the red charging light and green fully charged light. For the charge that I did today, this first flashing occurred at about 1:33 of charging at the 2A setting. Up to this point, the charger was a bit warm. After it was cooler to the touch. I stopped charging at 2:15. The balancer usually starts with light #3 coming on and off after a while of charging. It then cycles through lights #1 and #3 for a while and then finally #1, #2 and #3 cycling on and off together. This usually occurs near the point where the I get the alternate flashing between the red and green on the charger. My question is "What does all of this mean?". The instructions are lacking in this area.
2. Can the time used to get to the "fully charged/alternating light" point be used to determine the amount of charge used in the previous flight? For example, I am charging at 2A for 1.5 hours or putting in 3000mAh back into the battery. If my battery is 4000mAh, I am using about 75% of the charge. This is at the edge of what I would like to drain to according to what I have read here and elsewhere. Fair statement?
3. When the motor spools up to run there is a period of vibration before it takes off and runs. Initially I thought I was spinning the shaft on the prop, but observing the can, I know this is not the case. Is this a normal thing for this type of motor?
4. On the timer when the "blip" occurs to signal the end of flight, the propeller almost comes to a complete stop and then fires up again. At the end of flight the propeller quickly almost comes to a complete stop only slowly rotating a few turns from power off to touch down (with a decent glide). Is this normal? Most of the other E-planes I have seen seem to rotate a bit more. I have checked and the can (as well as I can tell) and prop shaft are clear of obstruction.
Photos before and after to be posted tomorrow. I will need to see if the little woman got any of it in flight.
Mike and Frank,
I do plan on some modifications for timer and switch mounting. It did stay in place well during my test flight though. When I get something clean looking, I will post a picture. Mike-the ESC was not hot on the ground run I did yesterday and it was fine when I checked post flight today.
John
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I think we should get along on these two batteries for now. Probably should put the money into four cell batts at some point. I wonder if the E-SC set up can handle a 4 cell?
Frank,
2 batteries should be fine. As for a 4 cell, I don't think there is enough room for it in the wing unless we go to smaller capacity. For this airplane the 3 cell appears to be fine
John
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I forgot about the limited battery space John.
That's a good analysis of your first flight. You're much more scientific about this than I. Hey---I guess that's why you got saddled with the job, eh?
Are you going to take it to Brodak?
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Frank,
I don't about the scientific part of things, but I do hope to look at things with the purpose of understanding. We both know that I was saddled with this one because you have a hard time sleeping and looking at yourself in the mirror after assembling an ARF.
I will be taking the E-SC around with me to various contests that I attend to let some people take a drive on it. And of course I will be using it around here on the days between my gas powered flying just to keep things interesting.
John
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After reading this thread and having been flying electric RC Planes and Helicopters for the last couple of years, I decided to get back to UC where I started nearly a half century ago.
I had some issues with the kit(early kit that is) and John was great in addressing them QUICKLY!
I have built a bunch of my own motors and seeing the one in the kit made me wonder about its manufacturer as well as the ESC and the Timer.
For anyone still with me, the ESC is a constant speed design that you cannot vary the speed on. It will only run WOT and you cannot throttle it. The timer is also only working on this ESC so that makes it a proprietary thing. I mean, there is absolutely nothing wrong with this and this approach considering the target group for it.
Question for John or Mike Palko. Can you identify the Manufacturer of the motor and electric controls? Reason I ask is that the motor has a twelve pole stator (29.5mm diameter and 12mm deep) and ten magnets. This makes it a DLRK design for speed. It is also terminated in Delta which makes it a High RPM motor with relatively high amp draw. I have wound a similar size motor to the Brodak one with comparable RPM and less amp draw that I will be testing on the E-SC.
John.....When will the Brodak site be updated with the electric supplies data. I cannot find the motor, ESC and timer or Battery information.
By the way, I am using a ThunderPower Pro-Lite 3S 4000 battery in mine when it is completed. Is the Brodak battery similar in size and performance?
Thanks guys for letting me ramble a bit.
Jim
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A couple of comments on stuff posted since my last post.
Frank,
I don't think a 4 cell lipo would be much use on this motor---it has a high kV so it would want to spin pretty fast. As it is it probably is turning ~12k rpm with a 9-4.5 prop on the 3 cells. A 4 cell lipo would probably get you to 15k! And at that power, the ESC and/or motor might overheat and self-destruct.
John Paris---the vibration has two possibilities--first the ESC is trying to turn on the motor, but doesn't know which way it is going to go, so it tries to get the motor to turn in order to detect the feedback signals. This is right as the motor turns on. The other possibility is that your nose ring is about ready to let loose--see my review! Actually a third possibility is that you are running through a resonance in the nose of the fuse. Even tho' the vibration level is pretty low, it is still there and can excite the resonance as it sweeps through it.
And for Jim I have a couple of questions as he seems to know something about the stock ESC.
I did try to use the jmp-2 timer on the stock ESC with no luck. I assumed it was because the ESC had some arming sequence that the jmp-2 didn't follow. I assumed that the ESC at least used a pulse width modulated throttle signal like an RC receiver would supply---it is just so common and the connectors were the same. Since the stock timer can blip the ESC signaling the end of the flight---and also slowly ramp up the speed, there must be some type of throttle input. So the question is whether it is really non-standard? It would have been nice to at least be standard and I would have thought it would be cheaper too.
By the way, it would be nice to have a spec sheet on the stock electronics. The reason I mention this is that after you buy the stock system, it would be fun to experiment a bit without having to buy a whole new system. If I had my wish, the system would have the following capabilities:
1) 20 second wait after pushing the start to let you get out to the handle before power was turned on.
2) a throttle of sorts to let one adjust the top end between 80%-100% full power
But like Mike has mentioned, I understand that John Brodak was trying to keep the costs down.
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For Alan,
I also tried the JMP-2 timer on the ESC with no luck. I tried a servo tester I use for running motors also with no luck. Looking at the ESC closely shows there are no multiple FETs and what appears to be a metal heatsink under the shrink wrap. If that is a heatsink, it would probably work better if the airflow could get to it.
I concurr highly with alan's wishlist for a little noger time between pushing the button and the motor starting up. Being ale to lower the top RMP or at least adjust it for a few hundred RPm would certainly be a plus.
Question for you Alan, how do you get your timer/ESC to ramp up gradually? Mine just goes to full throttle.
I also have a Jeti 30 amp ESC and a JMP-2 I plan to try on this Clown.
A little off topic here, but I am drawing up another plane along the moments of the SC for my next project. Tail moment will be a little longer and appearance will be different. I don't really understand why we as a collective group seem to be hung up on building the old designs we grew up with and not really exploring new designs as well as new materials. On another thread someone asked where the new youngsters are. This could be one of the factors if all we want to do is live in the past and re-live old times. Today's kids really think they have be fast,.... fast, and in a hurry to do everything and don't have time for a more sedate QUALITY way of relaxation/hobby.
And another thought. Yes this ESC will work on a 4S(tried it). The motor really is too high a Kv rating for 4S but a milder motor wind could easily spin an 11 inch to 13 inch prop. The stator diameter is a good size to build on.
Anyone know who makes this motor for Brodak?
Jim
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Jim,
I am going by memory on the stock ramp up--it has been some months since I used it. It certainly isn't full on at one shot. I recall something like a second or so type turn on. Currently I am using a JMP-2 and a Castle Creations Phoenix 35 to play around with the Super Clown. I am using governor mode, and the spool up is really slow compared to the stock setup.
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Hi Alan,
Sorry, my bad. When you said ramp up, I thought you meant like on the JMP-2 timer where You press the button and it runs up gradually to a pre-set RPM and then it will spin up to whatever RPM you had set it to.
The Brodak timer lets you push the button and then after a slight delay, the motor then spins up to WOT without the gradual spin up of the JMP.
It would defintely be a plus if the timer paused for more of length then spins up. Being able to set an RPM of less than 100% would also be nice.
Oh well, I have a JMP-2 and a Zigras timer to play with also. Looking at the Brodak timer/ESC makes me think this would be a great combination for flying a speed(sport?) plane? There are plenty of motors in this size range(30 - 35 amps) that would be great for a speedy plane to fly fast and level just for fun or even a trainer type. This is very achieveable on an inexpensive 2100 3S battery for less weight and fun performance. Anyone up for a double size Goldberg Li'l Wizard?. 8)
Jim
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Jim,
Rather than hijacking Frank's thread, I was thinking about starting a new thread on Electric Super Clown modifications. It is a little delicate because I don't want to be seen as slamming the original Super Clown hardware, which works as advertised (once the business of the nose ring is handled correctly).
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Alan, I wouldn't consider this thread as being hi-jacked if you use it to talk mods to the Super Clown. We're already here and listening anyway. And I think that it's a good topic. John has gotten far enough into the stock configuration to ascertain that the plane works as promised by Brodak.
It's time to talk enhancements.
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Here is something which I have just done, and is a modification of the plane.
Here is one ne thing that I have recently noticed in my flying data from the Super Clown. Since I am interested in keeping the power budget down, I am always looking at the current draw for the 2 level laps during the flight. Since I am running governor mode, the CC Phoenix ESC tries to keep the motor rpm constant by adjusting the current. What I have been noticing, I think, is that the average current being drawn in the last laps is higher than the current in the intial laps, yet the rpm is being kept constant. It isn't a big deal, 20 amps compared to 19 amps/
Now the only thing I can think of is for the current to rise while the rpm stays constant is that the back-emf from the motor must be dropping. In other words the permanent magnets are losing a little of their field--I assume due to their heating up during the flight. I don't think it is a permanent loss.
If this is true, then I think it means we need to get more air into the motor. In stock form, there is no inlet for air into the motor--it is blocked by the nose ring, and if you are using it, the fiberglass cowl. Anyway since I am not using the cowl, I was able to dremel out the nose ring (today) to allow some cooling air to enter the front of the motor. I will see if this does any good. This is a little surprising since the plane is a profile and the outer motor bell (with the magnets) is being cooled I think by the normal airflow. Of course in the heat of the summer it might be a bigger deal. But anything to cut down the power use!
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Hi Alan,
Don't worry ... be happy ... and know that everything is going to be alright!
You don't have a problem: what you see is proper.
Maintaining the same RPM requiers the same Watts.
Since the battery voltage is down, at the end of the flight, the current must be higher!
It's bound to be higher by the ratio of the battery voltage during the initial laps to the voltage during the last laps.
I've had good lresults importing the data-logger files into Excel and doing arithmetic to prove stuff like this.
later,
Dean
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Dean,
Since I am running in governor mode, the voltage at the motor is being compensated for by the ESC (I am running ~8500rpm at approximately 2/3 throttle or less--estimated--on a 1500 kV motor with a 3s1p battery). If the battery voltage was dropping past the value needed to keep the amps constant , the amps would also drop, as would the rpm. Nothing I can see would make the amps go up (physics is still physics). I am also monitoring the battery voltage, and yes it is dropping, but it is still high enough to keep the amps flowing.
In terms of tracking where the energy is going, a lot is being "wasted" in the ESC right now. What I mean by this is that I could be using a 2s1p lipo and still get the rpm on this 10-7 prop. Of course this is where I am headed in my attempt to reduce weight--lose one cell that isn't needed for this particular low-wind motor.
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Everyone,
Had problems getting the pics uploaded last night, so they will be put on tonight. The recharge after flight number 1 was about an hour so I assume at the 2A rate I am using about 50% of the battery which I believe is good. I ran a second flight today and another charge with about an hour passing until I get the full charge flash from the Brodak charger. Due to the lack of information with the charger and balancer, I will have to go with the basic calculations and believe that things are fine. At least they are consistent.
Do you guys think it would be worthwhile to suggest some Li-Po use and care tips with respect to charging and discharging to John Brodak to include in either his airplane manual or a sheet with the battery? At $100 a pop I would worry about a new comer getting thrown off by shortened battery life. I know that we have the boards here to ask questions, but Joe Bellcrank may not.
My son had the airplane duties this evening and he commented that it was "spooky" that the airplane could start up and take off on its own.
Back to the motor run performance, I checked over the points that Alan mentioned and can only believe that it is the motor initializing before deciding which way to spin. I have the fiberglass cowl in place and everything seems fairly tight and secure. Also the blip and end of run must have some braking programmed in or some juice flowing to limit the freewheel of the prop. After I landed, I checked to see how free it turned, and it did not. When I turned the switch off it freewheeled fine. I turned the switch back on and hit the start switch and after the prop started, hit the start switch (now the stop switch) and the prop freewheeled to a stop and spun freely. It really is not a performance issue that I can tell, just an observation and I would like to be sure that everything is running as it should.
Frank should be happy as I have managed to avoid the ground with this thing so far.
John
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Hi Alan,
I don't think your comments are hijacking Frank's thread one bit. Please don't take my comments as slamming the Brodak system either.
On cooling of the motor:
86 the cowling until winter when the motor will need to be warm.
The cooling holes in the nose ring are a good idea since the hottest part of the motor is the stator, which is bolted to the motor mounting area of the motor. The rotor is quite cool during operatioin comparatively and is the part to get the least warm during operation if there is air circulating anywhere near it.
During operation, I have discovered that the stator gets to around 60 degrees Celsius or arouind 130 degrees F. If you use the motor mount as a heatsink and get air to flow over it, the temperature during operation will drop noticeably. The ESC also could use some airflow over it so I have cut a small slot on the inboard side of the fuse and attached a very small scoop to it to ram a little air into the ESC cutout and it exits over the ESC to the outside of the flying circle.
Please be aware that if you go to a 2S pack, you need to make sure the battery can deliver the increased amp demand compared to a 3S pack. It might be lighter but the ESC will need more amps for the motor and pack temperature will go higher.
It is all a balncing act.
Jim
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John- I'm very happy that you haven't put it in the dirt. You made me a little nervous when you mentioned letting other people fly it ( I keep remembering the times we let other guys fly our Bi-Slobs) but hey, you be the judge.
Based on my experience with the Smoothie and on what Jim and Alan are saying, it looks like you've got it working right. Now if you would kindly put the decals on it....................
Jim, Alan, Dean---- you guys are doing a great job with this electric stuff. Your input is starting to make sense to me and even though I haven't had anything to do with the Super Clown I'm beginning to get a good grasp of the system. I think once the contest season is over I'm going to take another run at putting an electric stunter together. Except this time I'm going to build a plane instead of using an ARF.
Keep up the good work guys--------I'm learning a lot. And it's cool to be learning in an armchair while you guys go out and do all the work.
Gotta love it! y1
Decals John--Decals.
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Glare deck too Frank?
John
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nah, skip the glare deck John.
I hope you can get those verticle maneuvers worked out. Have you tried the other prop yet?
We need to get this other battery to you. Any ideas?
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A full 9" diameter prop should help the vertical. The lines should be 58'-62' x .015. Any longer and performance will suffer. What's the lap speed? Whats the static current draw?
I know some have asked about the motor, ESC and timer. All I can say is the timer/ESC is designed and built by a Chinese manufacturer for Brodak (proprietary). The motor is an off the shelf Chinese motor repackaged for Brodak. The design(s) as mentioned before had to be affordable, it had to work well and be simple to operate. That was the only criteria. It is intended for beginners. The customer does have the choice of buying only the parts you want/need. If you don't like the ESC or timer you don't have to buy it.
An example of the savings: a Thunder Power 4000mah 3S pack is $150, a CC Phoenix-45 is $100, a Astro Flight 109 is $120, a JMP/Zigras timer is $30, misc. connectors $10-20, a AXI motor is $80 and the ARF is about $60, so you can see it is doing it's job quite well. The price is cheap, and the airplane flies well out of the box, but it was never intended to have high efficiency, or compatibility, or even be a leading edge ESC/motor/timer design. It didn't have to be.
A note about the ESC handling a 4S pack. I am not sure if the FETs can handle the voltage (I would assume they can). I have never tested the ESC at this voltage because it was not a requirement. I also don't know what the BEC will do with 14.8 volts. I do know it is rated for 45amps with a 3S pack. I would bench run it first if you choose to run a 4S pack.
I hope this helps answer some questions. I might be able to get more information about the ESC/timer if for some reason people really need to know.
Mike
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Mike,
Thanks for the replies on this thread. I don't think I answered the question regarding the cowl, but it is glued in place and seems to have made the nose a touch more rigid.
So far I have been impressed with the Brodak package in both cost and performance. It certainly is a good value as you have identified and is fairly straight forward to use. The only quality problem that I have encountered with the set up is the timer selection button on the timer being a bit tricky to work, but I am able to change time settings pretty well now that I have figured out how it likes to be pressed. The start button has worked without issue from day one. The timer and switch placement could have been improved in the instructions, but is fairly stable and functional (the engineers dream).
The only shortcoming that I see with the set up is that there is a lack of practical detail about the system. I do not mean the technical stuff like schematics for the timer or the number of windings on the motor, but information about good practices with Li-Po batteries with respect to charging and discharging, tips for how to determine the amount of charge used when using the Brodak charger, why it is important to charge with a balancer and perhaps some of the potential impacts of changes in this system (prop effect on energy used, run time effect on energy used, etc). I think that this would go a long way for the pilot new to electric control line not to mention for a new pilot.
I will copy this post and send it to John Brodak for his review. Most know that I am not new to CL but this is my first poke at the electric side of things. What I was hoping to do with it (thanks to Frank for the opportunity) was to see what practical and useful information I could get using the entire Brodak set up and try to share that with the masses over here on Stunt Hangar. Still on the upside of the learning curve.
John #^
ADDED: Does the ESC have a low voltage cut off to protect against over discharge of the battery or is this left to be a function of the pilot?
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Hi John,
The instructions (users manual) have been a problem from day one. The original instructions never made it into the box, but as far as I know the problem has been taken care of. I don't know if enough information is provided even with the correct instructions. I have written an article on lipo's for the next issue of CLW. I realize not every Brodak customer reads CLW, but it is a start for anyone who follows the column. This is an important issue that should be covered if it hasn't already been.
As for the low voltage cutoff (LVC) the ESC should have one built in. The prototype I used had one, but if you plan on testing it I would recommend using NiMH or NiCD cells, don't risk a lipo. So far I have never had a timer fail Brodak or Z-Tron (I haven't used a JMP yet). Because of this, I have never had to rely on a LVC (thankfully).
Mike
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One idea is to post the instructions on the stock ESC and the electric timer on Brodak's site.
I agree with John and you that when it comes to the electric installation, the instruction manual sort of drops you off in unfamiliar territory. It isn't helped by the production motor and stuff are different from the photo's in the manual. That was my main criticism in my E-Super Clown review.
Of course if you have any RC experience with a brushless system, you have already seen most of the needed info. But if it is the first time, then it is tough!
Anyway, I agree the stock electric stuff is a great bargain, and the plane flies great (once that nose is glued on tight!) with it as is.
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Everyone,
I installed the 9x4.5 and had a chance to fly it last night after prepping the field for today's activities and found that it flew much better. Quite a bit faster on the flat and level, but managable and just about right in the maneuvers. Certainly the right combination in the wind. I was able to post a victory in OTS during our clinic/challenge today with the airplane. Frank Carlisle even got a chance to give it a flight and I think that he was fairly impressed with it.
I think that recommended 8x4 prop would be a good choice for the beginning pilot that allows enough speed and pull to fly the basic items and the simple upgrade of changing a prop to improve performance certainly makes this a decent package.
John
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John is right-- I was impressed with how the E-SC flew. It looked fast from the outside of the circle but when I flew it, it felt real good. In my opinion in the right hands ( like John's ) it can be compeititve. In my hands it can be a fun sport plane. And in a beginners hands it could be an easy trainer without the mess and fuss of learning how to run a glow engine.
The electric system could easily be mastered by anyone. John Brodak put out a winner here.
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Everyone,
I have put a few more flights on Frank's airplane using the 6 minute option on the timer and the power appears to be fairly consistent (maybe a little bit faster in the very beginning) right to the end of the run. Battery recharge times with the 2A selection on the charger was about 1.5 hours. I had the battery with 7 previous charges on it actually light up and keep lit the "Fully Charged" light on the charger. Battery #2 with 3 previous charges still had the red and green light bounce action with no steady green.
The airplane flys reasonably well, but seems to stall on the outside maneuvers a little more than the insides. Flaps blanking the tail??? In any case, I will try a little tail weight to see if I can improve the turn a bit without the stall as well as try not to punch the controls so hard.
One of the nice features of this airplane is the stealth. I fly in my back yard and try not to disturb the neighbors by not flying two days in a row. Now with the electric option, those odd days are good for a couple of flights with the E-SC.
John
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Hi John,
You could try reducing the flap movement to help with the stall issue. (If you haven't already.)
Mike
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Mike's suggestion will help, another similar would be to cut off the last 3"-4" or so of the flaps and glue them solid. It will have a similar impact as tailweight - without the weight!
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Dennis and Mike,
Thanks for the suggestions. I had thought about the F:E ratio change and was saving that for a little further downstream as it will speed up the stock controls quite a bit. I can probably counter this with line spacing. Since this is Frank's airplane, I will stay away from the hardcore modifications for now (cut and paste...)
Actually the plane flys well in the OTS pattern as is, but I wanted to see how it would do in the standard pattern and was not disappointed. Just looking for ways to make it a little better is all.
John
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John,
You do whatever you think needs to be done on that plane. Get hardcore if you want. I would like for you to post pix as you make the changes so I can track them for my own education.And for the benefit of future E-SC buyers.
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Just got back from Brodak's where John let me fly Frank's electric SC - thanks John, uhh I mean thanks Frank - oh you know what I mean! Like John P. I have a big enough backyard for some e-flying so I was really interested in seeing how it worked, would have settled for WATCHING it fly til John said "YOU fly it"!.
Anyhow, I was amazed at how very well this combination works! I was expecting it to be a lot softer power than it was - maybe like a Fox 35, but it behaved more like a hot 35. Plenty of power for a complete pattern. I also stalled it in squares - probably a combination of ham-handed Pilot and 32oz on a SC airframe - there are limits to what that airplane is capable of e-power or "slimer". But the power package motored it right back up to speed. Given the speed/power I think the power system would handle a slightly larger/draggier airframe well too. In fact a complete power system followed us home...
BTW the three e-power stunters in the contest did just fine. Mike P's being the most "purpose built", Linehart's Bearcat being adapted from the old ST46 sized the design and Jerry W(?) using an modified Vector ARF.
Might have to talk Big Art into making aluminum parts for electrics to replace his soon to be dwindling muffler business!
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Dennis,
It was good meeting you and your brother out at Brodak's. You know that the best way to evaluate anything is to try it out yourself, that is why you got to fly it. Keep us up to date on what you do with the power system you took home so that we can all know what it is capable of.
John
-If I have the plane with me and someone wants to fly it, just let me know.
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Dennis,
It was good meeting you and your brother out at Brodak's. You know that the best way to evaluate anything is to try it out yourself, that is why you got to fly it. Keep us up to date on what you do with the power system you took home so that we can all know what it is capable of.
John
-If I have the plane with me and someone wants to fly it, just let me know.
Gosh John-------your generosity with my Super Clown almost brings me to tears.
Dennis----------I got to fly it once myself. I'm happy you got the power train, now to see what you and Archie come up with.
John, I hope you know that I'm just being sarcastic about you and the Super Clown. Your second best skill after building is repairing. So have at it with letting guys fly it. Maybe we'll get some recognition for campaigning it for John B. y1
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Frank,
It is always easier to lend out someone else's equipment than your own..... :##
Besides as I said earlier, the only real way to get a feel for what it (the electric power train) can do is to try it out for yourself. It is a decent set up and fun to fly. I might feel different about letting others fly it if I had to wipe off a bunch of goo afterwards.
If this set up gets another person in the air because of the ease of assembly and stealth-like operation, then letting others try it out is well worth the potential risk of having to make a repair.
John
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Frank,
It is always easier to lend out someone else's equipment than your own..... :##
Besides as I said earlier, the only real way to get a feel for what it (the electric power train) can do is to try it out for yourself. It is a decent set up and fun to fly. I might feel different about letting others fly it if I had to wipe off a bunch of goo afterwards.
If this set up gets another person in the air because of the ease of assembly and stealth-like operation, then letting others try it out is well worth the potential risk of having to make a repair.
John
You've got me sold Big John. Lend that puppy out!!
Would you like to try tying a string to it's tail and flying it ala Banjok/Palco style? It would be a first and Sig would be a great venue for such an attempt.
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Frank,
I think that part of their set up includes the engine run variation with airplane angular position (Slob-style) and that would not happen with the ESC. I wonder why there is a trend to have an airplane not fly like an airplane (Slobbing and 3-D)...
John
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Maybe the Bi-Slob guys are trying to be as cool as RC dudes. LL~
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Well, the E-SuperClown is still very much alive and flying when I get a chance. I thought I would drop in an update on an interesting find I had today on the Brodak charger and balancer. As I have stated before, obtaining a solid green light on the charger was near impossible. On battery #1 with 20 charges I have had it happen 2 times and battery #2 with 13 charges has not had a hit even after extremely long (2+hours at the 2 amp rate) charges. Without making anyone go back and read the long thread, I have been using the charger temperature to get a feel of when the charging is actually done regardless of what the lights are trying to tell me. When it is cool and sufficient time has passed, the battery is charged. The charger generally will flash the green light and then go back into charge. Note that I have followed the instructions by using the charger and balancer when charging the battery.
In any case, today when I was charging the batteries and I was at a point where I was sure the battery was charged (cool charger and 2+ hours of charge at 2 amps) I pulled off the balancer and waited for a bit. The charger jumped to a solid green light indicating a full charge for battery #1. I set up battery #2 to charge while I continued to mow "Paris Field" and went on to wash the motorcycle. Again 2 hours had passed and the charger was cool, but no solid green light (no flasher either as I ran out of patience before it would flash). So I tried removing the balancer and sure enough, the green light came on after a short wait. Interesting discovery. From what I understand Dennis Adamisin was having issues with his charger showing full charge even after a good amount of waiting using an identical system.
While I know that there are probably better chargers and balancers out there, I would still like to stick with the base system that Brodak offers and try to learn as much from it as I can. After my findings today I have a few questions:
The first is if the balancer is lowering the voltage/current enough in the balancing process to fool the charger into thinking that charging needs to continue? Which leads to "What is the balancer doing in the balancing process and how?"
The next is "What do the lights on the balancer indicate and do they all need to be on or off for the battery to be balanced?"
Finally, "How long can a battery be charged without the balancer in place and is the short duration check I am doing causing any potential harm to the cells?"
I hope that this might help someone out and that someone can ring in with some feedback on the questions I have posed.
Thanks,
John
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Hi John,
Thanks for sticking with this problem and trying to get the most out of the stock system. I'm sure your research will help others that will buy this E-ARF. ..... Your right, there are much better, easier to use, chargers out there, and that would be the simple solution. The Multiplex is great for our size batteries, up to 5 cell and 5 Amp batteries, and it is only $100. Or the $57 Thunder Power unit.
I am not familiar with the charger you are using but I may be able to shed some light on some of your questions.
1. I use the Thunder power balancers. Yours sounds like it gives similar results to mine. My balancer shows my batteries are charged (beeps the correct # of times) and balanced, BUT the charger (both my TP and Multiplex) continues charging, like yours seems to be doing, and puts several hundred more mAh into the battery before they automatically shutoff. It seems like it takes some extra time to bring that last low cell up to full charge before the charger finally says: "OK, were really done now".
Our chargers are not 100% efficient. At the 4.2 Amp rate (1C for my batteries) it takes 57 min to put 3.255 Amps back into the battery. You may want to see how long it should take at your "C" rate. It may take longer than 2 hours?
2. A safe way to check to see if your batteries are fully charged is to use a simple volt meter. If it is a 4 cell battery it should charge to about 16.7 Volts if it is a 3 cell it should be around 12.58 Volts when fully charged. (CAUTION: Please be carefull using the meter probes. You don't want to short out your battery!)
3. Regarding charging without using a balancer: Yes, some people still never use a balancer. Technically, it is not really needed to charge your batteries, but it's many benefits make it worthwhile to use. When I first got into elec R/C many years ago, the batteries did NOT have a balancer plug. In fact, we never heard of a balancer. Now, most of us would not think of charging without one. They are an excellent safety feature, and they will prolong the effective life of your battery.
4. RE: lights on your charger. Sorry, can't help you there. Mike may be able to help you on this. I have six chargers and all but one have a digital display that tells me everything I need to know. Volts, mAh used, time, "C" level, etc. The one with the lights is the little, inexpensive ($57) Thunder Power charger. Each light has a label next to it telling me what it means.
It is interesting to see how this ground breaking E-ARF is playing out. I admire John for trying this, and I realize that he was going for a mass market price point, but the charger sounds like it is a weak link in the system. It should be a little more user friendly with better instructions. It is a very important part of the package. Like Kim has wisely said before, "....ECL is not inexpensive if you want IC equivalent power, reliability, user friendly, and safe performance".
EDITORIAL: Read at your own risk? Z@@ZZZ
After over 100 ECL flights (and many hundreds of E-R/C flights) I am still a big fan of e power. But I agree with Kim, I don't think there is a "close" E cost equivalent of a CL OS .20FP anywhere in our near future. I think we are there (within 25% of cost) for an ECL contest competitive .46 size plane. And also the same for the .60 to .91 size CL plane.
We have all heard about the many benefits of ECL. After flying in and judging at 4 contests this year, I can safely say that the REAL advantage to ECL is not the quiet, or the lack of a mess to clean up, or the mass that is now located closer to the CG (less barbell affect), or the sanitary installs, ...... it is the RELIABILITY and REPEATABILITY of the power run throughout the ENTIRE flight!
I have been surprised at how many "less than ideal" IC runs there are in CL. At contests even the top Expert pilots, with beautiful planes, sometimes have marginal runs that cost them points, especially when the wind picks up.
I was at the practice field last week, there were only two of us. One of our Expert class pilots was on one circle and was having IC problems and only got in two good flights, and two flights that were only partial patterns. I was on the other circle and flew six flights (all six of my batteries). Since they were charging while I was flying, I flew three more flights. My friend, who will remain nameless, was still working on his engine when I left. I admit this is an extreme case, but it shows what can happen.
The reliability is worth it's weight in GOLD. I never have to worry about my power. I get a perfect stunt run every time. It NEVER ever burps, coughs, or changes in any way. Now, if I can just find a way to get my hourglasses to look better, and my etc. ...... LL~
PS: I DO miss the smell of Nitro and Burning Castor. ..... Maybe I could make a spray "CL Scent" to use in the pits? n~
Regards, H^^
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I have noticed through this entire thread that you get one flight per battery charge. Then it takes 1 to 1.5 hours or so to recharge one. That means that if I wish to get 10 to 15 flights per day of practice, I will need that many batteries as there is no electric power at the field. We have two paved circles and three BIG grass circles that are available for use all the time so there is no waiting. how do I get around having to buy $1000.00 worth of batteries?
Will a camping type A/C power plant work? How about an a/c inverter on the car?
Bigiron
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I have noticed through this entire thread that you get one flight per battery charge. Then it takes 1 to 1.5 hours or so to recharge one. That means that if I wish to get 10 to 15 flights per day of practice, I will need that many batteries as there is no electric power at the field. We have two paved circles and three BIG grass circles that are available for use all the time so there is no waiting. how do I get around having to buy $1000.00 worth of batteries?
Will a camping type A/C power plant work? How about an a/c inverter on the car?
Bigiron
Marvin,
You ask some very important questions. We have addressed these questions in past posts, but it was always buried in different subjects, but never answered directly.
1. RE Charging power:
Yes, RV power or a generator unit, or your car will work. We only need a 12V power supply for our chargers. When we have 110V available we use an inexpensive ($80) 12V Switching power supply (from Radio Shack) to power our 12V chargers. .... Many use an auto battery (Mike, AKA: "Muscles", Palko for ex. ;-) uses a 50+lb auto battery at the field to charge his batteries. This should give you around 10+ charges. You could use your car battery as many do, this has the advantage of being automatically charged, but the disadvantage of leaving you stranded at the field if depleted too much. n1
I use two 18 Amp 12V batteries that weigh 15 lbs. ea. when I fly at a local park. These give me 3 charges each and are very easy to carry. Both my club fields have 110V or 12V power. One from the parks department and one just for us electric flyers, from the large Solar Panels on our club buildings roof. :-)
It sounds like you have a very nice field. If you have drive up access, close to your pits, I would think that Mike's 50+ lb. 12V Auto battery would be the perfect solution for your needs.
2. RE the time to charge:
I use the Thunder Power 1010C charger with their 210 balancer with data port. This excellent combination allows me to safely charge TWO batteries simultaneously in 57 min. I can do it in 20 min. if I am brave enough to use the authorized 3C rate for this TP charging system. (I have not been this brave yet ;-). I also have a Multiplex charger that I use to charge a third battery if needed. This system allows me to fly as long as I can keep it up.
For the majority of competitive flyers 2 to 4 batteries, with the above charging system, should be adequate for their needs. For an extremely serious competitor like yourself (15 CL flights per session) you may need six batteries, which allow you to fly all day, sun up to sun down! ;-)
I have six batteries, only because I am lazy, and I usually fly 1 CL flt. then 1 RC for a total of 12 flights per session. That is more than enough flying for me. :-) I still often recharge everything while I am at the field flying, so that I do not have to do it at home, and this gets me a head start for the next day of flying. But some days I'm real lazy and just fly. Enjoying perfectly reliable, repeatable, unlimited (for my plane), smooth, quiet, power. Flight, after Flight, after Flight...... #^
3. RE Battery Cost:
For a very serious competitor that flys 15 flights per session, you must burn a lot of fuel. Just think of batteries as your fuel supply. The price of the two are very close to the same. We need to think in terms of COST PER FLIGHT, not the cost of individual items by themselves.
The excellent Evo batteries cost $170 each. We est. that we will get around 200 flights per battery. At 195 flights that comes to $.87 per flight. A .46 uses 5.5 oz. of fuel per flt, at $20/gal this = $.87 per flight. Your milage may vary, but it will still be close enough that batteries are very competitive with glow fuel. They are NOT the big expense everyone sees them as. You are just buying your fuel in advance, in 8.5 gal packages!
I hope this helped with some of your questions. Please feel free to ask for more details if you need them.
Regards, H^^
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"For a very serious competitor that flys 15 flights per session, you must burn a lot of fuel. Just think of batteries as your fuel supply. The price of the two are very close to the same. We need to think in terms of COST PER FLIGHT, not the cost of individual items by themselves".
I hope this helped with some of your questions. Please feel free to ask for more details if you need them.
Thanks for the good words, but I am not a "serious competitor" as such. I fly mostly OT and Classic, but do enter PAMPA class Advanced with my classic ships.
My fuel cost is $12.00 per gal and I use three to four cases per year. My consumption is 3.5 to 4.0 ounces per flight. (I think that figures out to be somewhere around $0.40 per flight). The engine(s) I use cost me about $55 each and usually last 8 to 10 years. (unless I have a BAD year like this year--- crashes took out two of my best engines).
I am seriously thinking of looking toward E power so I have copied the data you gave for future consideration. Yes, it has helped immensely.
Thanks again for the reply.
Bigiron aka Marvin Denny
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PLACE YOUR BETS! ???
I'm betting Marv's next Bi-Slob will be a Bi-Slob-E! #^
(well maybe not...) LL~
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At least there would be plenty of room to place the battery.
Bigiron
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Marv:
In fact you'd have room to carry that 18A charging battery Rudy mentioned! #^
All seriousness aside, while I am a big fan of e-power, there are some things that should NOT be messed with - like Fox 35's in Bi-Slobs! n1
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I flew the E-Clown this ihread got started with this past Saturday.
It's way fast for stunt. John is going to try different props to get slower laps.
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I flew the E-Clown this thread got started with this past Saturday.
It's way fast for stunt. John is going to try different props to get slower laps.
Hi Frank,
Sorry my ans. got a little off topic. I promise that I did not mean to be clowning around with your thread. n~
Do you have a way to adjust the RPM on your set-up? Like we do with our JMP timers?
I have tried 10 different props with my ECL P-40. I ended up going with the same prop used by Linhart Smith, and Will Moore, an APC 12x6 E. I'm glad I followed their advice. By turning down the RPM from 10,500 with a Bolly CF 11 1/4x4 prop, to 9,100 with the APC, I now have a setup that is quieter, seems smoother, and pulls like a freight train! On 62' E to E lines, I get perfect 5.0 sec lap times which fits my flying style to a "T". :-)
If you can adjust the RPM you may want to try a larger dia. with a relatively higher pitch, and lower RPM to get the lap times you want. I know that "low pitch" is almost sacred in CL but IMHO that really has more to do with the idiosyncrasies of 2CL engines than any natural law. S?P Our ECL systems (with Outrunner motors) seem to like more dia and pitch at lower RPMs, much like the 4CL engines do. I'm sure Mike, and others will have more to say on this, and more experimentation will give us more answers in the future. .... Good Luck, and please keep us posted.