Author Topic: My electric Super Clown (Read 8233 times)

frank carlisle · « **on:** April 14, 2007, 01:41:23 PM »

I didn't plan on buying an Electric Super Clown when I went down to the Toledo Model Expo today. But I wound up bringing one home.

It's one stop shopping from Brodaak. All the components are sold seperaetly but you can get it all in one place. And for this particular model.

I thought after I sold my electric Smoothie I was done with it. However I thought it would be fun to check this one out and see how it goes together and how it works.

The picture shows everything I bought at Brodak's. It's all in stock. If you guys would like I can keep you posted as to how it all works.

Mike Palko · « **Reply #1 on:** April 14, 2007, 11:22:48 PM »

Hi Frank,
Congrats on the electric Super Clown purchase. There has been some good discussion about the Clown here on StuntHanger. The Super Clown (Brodak) is one stop shopping, but a few flaws showed up in the final production run

. All the info you need to get it up and flying successfully is here on SH. If you still have questions, I'd be glad to help.

BTW, welcome back.

Mike

Alan Hahn · « **Reply #2 on:** April 14, 2007, 11:41:00 PM »

Check out the review.

frank carlisle · « **Reply #3 on:** April 15, 2007, 04:37:23 PM »

I checked out the review and it seems pretty straight forward.

I'm never going to get into electric the way the rest of you guys are. All the guages and meters are Greek to me. And the language you use may as well be Latin. ........BUT.....I had a lot of fun with my Smoothie and I'm sure the Super Clown will be a blast also.

The main reason I got the Clown was because as far as I know it's the first c/l electric that comes with all of the components which should make it so a guy that is just getting started shouldn't have to do any guess work at all. It'll be traveling around for guys to check out.

Next Saturday I'm taking all the stuff up to Flint where I will be flying with the locals. While up there I'm going to hand the Super Clown and components over to John Paris. He'll be assembling it and running comparisons between it and a couple of ARF Clown's with IC engines.

Alan Hahn · « **Reply #4 on:** April 15, 2007, 07:25:42 PM »

One comment I'll make is that I have been having problems with my vertical eights and hourglass. The plane doesn't tuck under on the top part of the loop (where I'm pulling down elevator) and I end up bailing out.
Just looked at it today and noticed the controls are "springy". Took off the elevator pushrod and the springiness went away. So now I am cutting the CA hinges and will sew some hinges. The hinge material still inside the stab and elevator makes a nice solid foundation to hold the thread!

Alan Hahn · « **Reply #5 on:** April 19, 2007, 12:16:56 PM »

Just a reply to my last reply, the sewn hinges seem to have solved my problem of near-loss of control input in the upper part of the vertical 8 and hour glass. So I recommend NOT to use the supplied CyA Hinges on the elevator. With the sewn hinges on the elevator and Dubro hinges on the flaps, the controls feel nice and loose now.

frank carlisle · « **Reply #6 on:** April 19, 2007, 12:46:22 PM »

Thanks for the heads up on the hinges Alan.

John Paris will be assembling and trimming out this model. I'd lready done one with my electric Smoothie and John's been thinking about electric so it's only natural that he'd do this one.

re you using the rest of the electric gear that Brodak supplies?

Alan Hahn · « **Reply #7 on:** April 19, 2007, 09:20:28 PM »

In the review I am using all Brodak stock powertrain. I recommend the Graupner 9-4 "CAM" prop. It gives a nice flying speed. A normal APC 9-4 might work well too. An APC 9-4.5 "Thin Electric" prop is too fast, unless you take some of the pitch out like Mike did. Typically an electric prop is thinner and thus maybe a little more efficient than the thicker glow prop.
One complaint I have is that I wish the Brodak timer had a small pot to adjust the throttle on the Speed Control. It would open up the prop selections a bit if you had a small amount of adjustment.
I am experimenting now with a non-stock ESC and timer. Hope to learn a little and perhaps use it to adjust the standard stock setup to give me a little lighter flying plane. Stock setup is ~33oz.

Mike Palko · « **Reply #8 on:** April 19, 2007, 10:15:14 PM »

Hi Alan,
I think you (and maybe a few others) have mentioned wanting more adjustability from the Brodak setup. I fully agree to get the most out of the setup you need more adjustments, but that was not the intention of the Brodak electric package.

The intentions were to get a first time electric flier in the air successfully with a plug and play power system, no adjustments needed (eliminate the variables), for as little money as possible, without sacrificing to much in the process. Our hopes were that you can go flying knowing you will have a safe load on the motor, battery and ESC, meaning there are no extra volt/amp/temp meters needed. KISS.......

If you (or anyone) purchased the Brodak package and learned enough from it to do their own experimenting, it did it's job quite well. You may have known this already, but I wanted to be sure you knew the intentions of the product, and didn't assume it was put together cheaply.

Mike

frank carlisle · « **Reply #9 on:** April 20, 2007, 02:30:50 AM »

Mike, I've been using Brodak stuff for years and I've grown accustomed to always having great quality.
I figured your association with the E-Clown pretty much guaranteed it would work just fine.

Alan Hahn · « **Reply #10 on:** April 20, 2007, 08:13:09 AM »

Mike,
I certainly understand the original "thrust" of the Brodak offering. However I think it is possible to "improve" the product, consistent with the original design goals.
In the case of the timer, having something you could adjust (lets say from top throttle to 80%) would really be nice. I doubt that can happen on the current stock, but perhaps in a future product.

fernando torres · « **Reply #11 on:** April 20, 2007, 02:33:34 PM »

Where can I get a Brodak Electric model and set up? I could not find it in their website.

Mike Palko · « **Reply #12 on:** April 20, 2007, 03:08:35 PM »

Alan,
I just wanted to be sure you knew the original intentions

. I think the best way to improve the Clown is to offer upgrades separately. Offer it as a plug and play system (for the guys who are green), or let the user pick and choose from an adjustable timer and ESC. I guess you grow out of the stock setup fairly quick. Hopefully Brodak persues more electric projects and offers a larger variety of products.

Fernando,
You can purchase the electric Super Clown at www.Brodak.com.

Mike

frank carlisle · « **Reply #13 on:** April 20, 2007, 03:18:34 PM »

It's a good deal for the "green guy" and for guys like me that don't want to have to think too much about it.
I still have a first generation Zigras timer.

John Paris · « **Reply #14 on:** April 23, 2007, 07:40:17 PM »

Frank,
The E-SC is starting to get out of the box. I have reviewed the directions and pulled the fuse out for its shrinking, but got distracted with a phone call. There is always tomorrow....
John

frank carlisle · « **Reply #15 on:** April 23, 2007, 08:05:05 PM »

Quote from: John Paris on April 23, 2007, 07:40:17 PM

Frank,
The E-SC is starting to get out of the box. I have reviewed the directions and pulled the fuse out for its shrinking, but got distracted with a phone call. There is always tomorrow....
John

That's excellent news John. I'm glad you got it started. I think everything you'll need to complete it is there except for the prop.
Make sure to post some pictures as you go along. I think a lot of the guys would like to see how it goes together for you. You may be able to shed additional light on it.

BTW----I just got 4 more Brodak .40s today. John B only got 50 of them in the last shipment. That was just enough to fill some backorders, They wound up out of stock the same day they arrived.

Bob Disharoon · « **Reply #16 on:** April 24, 2007, 06:35:19 AM »

What was the total cost at the show?..thnx, Bob

frank carlisle · « **Reply #17 on:** April 24, 2007, 06:41:08 AM »

I think total cost was around $300-----John has all the stuff now and the prices are on the labels. He'll tally it up.

Close as I can figure the battery will be equal to nearly a hundred dollars worth of fuel. So getting the E-SC is like getting a few gallons of fuel along with the plane.

John Paris · « **Reply #18 on:** April 24, 2007, 07:29:51 PM »

Frank,
Here are the round numbers for your purchase:
Item Cost
Airplane $70
Motor $59
Controller $70
Battery $94
Charger $70
Balancer $70
Total $433

These are from the prices shown on the packages.
John

frank carlisle · « **Reply #19 on:** April 24, 2007, 07:58:55 PM »

Yes for the first plane that cost is $433. But if you consider that the battery and charger and balancer would be interchangeable with a second plane. Say a Arf flight Steak-- All you'd need to buy for the second plane would be the plane, motor and speedcotroller which would only cost around two hundred bucks.
Plus---your battery is going to give you a lot of flights. I think the number I heard was 500 charges. From what I was told you can get two 6 1/2 minute flights off of one charge. 2 flights X 500 charges = 1,000 flights. The fuel equivalent would be about 3 ounces per flight or 42 or 43 flights per gallon. By my math you'd use about 20 gallons to get a thousand flights and that would be by running the engine lean. So at $12 a gallon it would cost you around $220 dollars of liquid fuel to get the same mileage from a $90 dollar battery.

Dean Pappas · « **Reply #20 on:** April 24, 2007, 08:54:14 PM »

Hi Frank,
I'm afraid that the 2 flights per charge claim is very likely an exageration.
In addition, running the batteries too low is the one thing that will hurt them in relatively few charge cycles.
As for number of cycles, there are all sorts of claims and a fiar amount of outright BS ...
Let me add mine. For batteries that are used hard enough for competition: i.e. 80% used in 6 minutes, I expect better than 150 cycles, but not a whole lot more before you see some degradation. They may suffice another 50 to 100 for Sport at lesser current draw.

Still, that ain't half bad, and if Sport is the goal, there are battery sources popping up at 60% of the prices we are used to.
I'll go look for the last one I found.
All the Best,
Dean P.

Mike Palko · « **Reply #21 on:** April 24, 2007, 09:37:26 PM »

Hi Frank,
I agree with Dean on the number of cycles.

I can also tell you that the Brodak 4000mah battery with the "stock" power system configuration will only give you 6.5-7min of flight time per charge.

Mike

frank carlisle · « **Reply #22 on:** April 25, 2007, 01:54:45 AM »

Quote from: Mike Palko on April 24, 2007, 09:37:26 PM

Hi Frank,
I agree with Dean on the number of cycles.

I can also tell you that the Brodak 4000mah battery with the "stock" power system configuration will only give you 6.5-7min of flight time per charge.

Mike

Well Mike.....Those cycle numbers are sure a lot different than what I was told. Dang!!

frank carlisle · « **Reply #23 on:** April 25, 2007, 06:15:48 AM »

John, based on getting one 6 1/2 or seven minute run per charge you might need another battery. If you like I can get another one to you by the time you're ready to do some analysis of the system, and flight comparisons with an IC powered Super Clown.

Was there any info on the motor in the packaging?

I'm curious to know how long it takes to charge the battery with the charger supplied. And also how the charger works. Do you plug it into the wall or to a car battery?

Dean Pappas · « **Reply #24 on:** April 25, 2007, 09:31:46 AM »

Hi again Frank,
If you are using a little less battery, say 2/3 of capacity in the nominal 6 minutes, the battery life could easily be double what I quoted you.
The same small group of competent folks I am watching for battery life estimates in the Pattern world are showing battery failures in between 150 and as many as 250 flights, but they are running above 80A from a 5 A-H pack. That's over 16C! I am ignoring the folks who toast 'em in 30 flights. That is a matter of misuse. The above spread in lifetimes when run at 16C at full throttle tells me that we will do at least as well. In CLPA, we are running around 7C with peaks (due to governor action) of maybe 10 or 11C.

Sport use can be a bunch gentler than competition. Try these guys for inexpensive packs. They are maybe 10% heavier per capacity and C rating than the high-priced spread. Build lighter and it won't matter! http://www.commonsenserc.com

Take care All,
Dean

frank carlisle · « **Reply #25 on:** April 25, 2007, 11:10:55 AM »

Thanks Dean

Alan Hahn · « **Reply #26 on:** April 25, 2007, 06:12:48 PM »

Frank,
At the risk of boiling off your neurons, check out this thread, http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=4289.0
where I had my first SuperClown flight. If you scroll down, I have a plot which shows how the entire stock Brodak SuperClown and propulsion system performed. Prop was a Graupner 9-4 CAM. If you look at the red trace on the plot, it shows you how much of the battery I used. Actually the legend is even better, it tells you I used 2564maH of the 4000 maH battery (actually my Astro 109 charger claims it is a 4500maHr battery!). My flight was 6 minutes total (that's what I set the timer to). This time includes the time the prop power was being used as I walked out to the handle. Anyway I think you would really be pushing it to get two 5 minute flights in. I have never gone for two tries. It does make progress a little slow.I'm too cheap to buy another battery, but honestly the Brodak battery is really a good deal at the price.

John Paris · « **Reply #27 on:** April 25, 2007, 06:55:46 PM »

Frank,
I got all of the parts smoothed out and took the time to look them over a bit (the kit is typical Brodak ARF). I had thought that this would be an add-on style kit to conver the current Brodak SC ARF to the e-version. Not the case. The fuse is unique for this version in that the nose does not have the typical hardwood bearers, rather it has a built up area to support the front motor mount. There is also a cut out area for the controller. The rear has been lightened with 4 cut out areas.

The wing has an additional rib to close in the motor box. There are 2 cut outs. One in the front for the battery and one in the rear (top and bottom) for ventilation. The planking has also been widened a bit on the battery side.

Attached are some pics to illustrate what I was talking about.
John

frank carlisle · « **Reply #28 on:** April 25, 2007, 08:00:41 PM »

Quote from: Alan Hahn on April 25, 2007, 06:12:48 PM

Frank,
At the risk of boiling off your neurons, check out this thread, http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=4289.0
where I had my first SuperClown flight. If you scroll down, I have a plot which shows how the entire stock Brodak SuperClown and propulsion system performed. Prop was a Graupner 9-4 CAM. If you look at the red trace on the plot, it shows you how much of the battery I used. Actually the legend is even better, it tells you I used 2564maH of the 4000 maH battery (actually my Astro 109 charger claims it is a 4500maHr battery!). My flight was 6 minutes total (that's what I set the timer to). This time includes the time the prop power was being used as I walked out to the handle. Anyway I think you would really be pushing it to get two 5 minute flights in. I have never gone for two tries. It does make progress a little slow.I'm too cheap to buy another battery, but honestly the Brodak battery is really a good deal at the price.

Thanks Alan, I guess I'll give up on getting two runs per charge. However I do plan on getting a couple more batteries. So the charging should be easier.
John Paris is actually building the model and getting it set up. He'll be doing all of the initial flying and evaluating of the system.
When I had my electric Smoothie I hated charging and baby sitting the batteries. All of that seems really inconvenient.
What I can't figure is why someone hasn't come up with a faster way to charge the batteries. Why is it that you can exhaust the battery in 6 or 7 minutes but it takes over an hour to juice it back up?

John, thanks for the pix and the running dialogue on the progress of this model. Keep up the good work,man.
It took a minute to see what the first two pics were. Once I saw it was the fuselage being held up to the light to reveal the framework it all came clear. Is it possible to get comparitive weights of the IC and the E Super Clowns without powertrain hardware?

Alan Hahn · « **Reply #29 on:** April 26, 2007, 10:53:21 AM »

So Frank,
You are not even the Assembler of the Model?

frank carlisle · « **Reply #30 on:** April 26, 2007, 12:07:09 PM »

Quote from: Alan Hahn on April 26, 2007, 10:53:21 AM

So Frank,
You are not even the Assembler of the Model?

No Alan I am not. The Electric Super Clown far as I can tell is the first one stop shopping model of it's kind. So I bought it because I thought it was a significant milestone in electric control line. And John is putting it together and flying and evaluating it because he's more scienterrific than me. He'll journal and jot numbers and make charts. So he'll be able to accurately define how it works.

John Paris · « **Reply #31 on:** April 26, 2007, 07:29:54 PM »

Quote from: Alan Hahn on April 26, 2007, 10:53:21 AM

So Frank,
You are not even the Assembler of the Model?

Alan,
I owe a lot of my ARF assembling experience to Frank. Of course there are fringe benefits in it for me otherwise he would be assembling. Besides this is a good way for me to get my feet "wet" in e-flying.
John

Alan Hahn · « **Reply #32 on:** April 26, 2007, 09:17:53 PM »

Of course I realize that after building the LA Heat, Frank's day job is figuring out how to transport it to the field!

frank carlisle · « **Reply #33 on:** April 27, 2007, 01:23:46 AM »

Quote from: Alan Hahn on April 26, 2007, 09:17:53 PM

Of course I realize that after building the LA Heat, Frank's day job is figuring out how to transport it to the field!

o my......

frank carlisle · « **Reply #34 on:** April 30, 2007, 03:25:15 PM »

ATTENTION ALAN HAHN-------------or anyone using the Brodak charger and battery.

How long does it take for the battery to charge?

Mike Palko · « **Reply #35 on:** April 30, 2007, 04:07:07 PM »

Hi Frank,
It should take 1.5-2hrs because the charger is only capable of charging @ 2amps. Again, it was another compromise and at the time there were no affordable chargers available that were capable of charging a 3S lipo at 4amps.
I haven't looked recently, so I am not sure if one is available yet. I know there are many $100 plus chargers that will do the job, but that didn't fit the bill.

Mike

Alan Hahn · « **Reply #36 on:** April 30, 2007, 04:50:49 PM »

I don't have the charger--not sure it existed when I bought my Super Clown. Already had a charger (Astro 109) from an electric RC Arf (Sig E-Force, little electric brother to the Sig P-Force). To be honest, once you begin testing the water, you end up jumping all the way in! Also try to find commonalities between things---like common LiPo's if possible, ESC's...... Sometimes it works, sometimes not.
I agree with Mike that everything is a compromise. In this case I think Brodak et al were trying as hard as possible to keep the costs down.

frank carlisle · « **Reply #37 on:** April 30, 2007, 05:36:46 PM »

SEE...............that charging time is the deal breaker for me.....I got a multi-plex charger when I put the Smoothie together that took 75 mins....
I really dislike baby sitting batteries.
I did order another battery from Brodak today and Bob Branch has a charger he said cost about $60 and replenishes batteries in 45 mins. Still......it's easier to squirt in 5 0z. of fuel - fly - and be done with no worry about your energy source.
Yup I'm grousing about this.............

Dean Pappas · « **Reply #38 on:** April 30, 2007, 06:32:26 PM »

Hi Gang,

Quote from: Mike Palko on April 30, 2007, 04:07:07 PM

Hi Frank,
It should take 1.5-2hrs because the charger is only capable of charging @ 2amps. Again, it was another compromise and at the time there were no affordable chargers available that were capable of charging a 3S lipo at 4amps.
I haven't looked recently, so I am not sure if one is available yet. I know there are many $100 plus chargers that will do the job, but that didn't fit the bill.

Mike

If and only if you are going to buy batteries with balance connectors, then the FMA CellPro will do nicely, charge at 4A, and balance all at the same time. No need to buy a separate balancer. $$

Dean

frank carlisle · « **Reply #39 on:** April 30, 2007, 06:43:25 PM »

Dean---you got a link to the---FMA Cell Pro?

John Paris · « **Reply #40 on:** April 30, 2007, 07:22:44 PM »

Hey Guys,
Sorry I was out of the office for the weekend, but needed to spend some quality time with the family in the woods of northern Michigan looking for mushrooms, picking leeks, riding quads and seeing some deer and elk (a herd of 24 made the little woman and I take a momentary break while they slowly cleared the trail). Time well spent to be sure....

The construction on the E-SC is coming along. I installed the hinges on the wing and glued the tail in place this evening after doing a little running around. The flaps will probably glued in yet tonight and I will try to take a shot or two of my technique to share (only because I have not seen it here on the net yet). With some luck, I will have the airplane framed up tomorrow and then can start working on installing the power system. I will be sure to get some good shots of this to share with the group.

Sorry there is not too much for an update for this evening, but I am still poking along on it.

John

frank carlisle · « **Reply #41 on:** April 30, 2007, 07:28:18 PM »

John, can you see into the battery compartment well enough to see what they did to hold it together without a leading edge?

John Paris · « **Reply #42 on:** April 30, 2007, 07:37:00 PM »

Frank,
The whole thing is boxed in. There are ribs on either side and the sheeting on the top and bottom with the back glued to some spars. The front is reinforced with a few extra pieces of wood. I will pop some pics tomorrow for better detail.
John

Alan Hahn · « **Reply #43 on:** April 30, 2007, 08:10:54 PM »

Frank,
Most of the batteries say to charge them at 1C--that means for the Brodak Battery 4Amps for 1 hr. The constant for these lipo's is 1 hr. I have seen some give a slightly higher rate, and on those I guess it would be fine. However charging these LiPO's is a little like working with live ammo. I would follow the directions!

John,
I had to sand the inner spar to fit the stock battery in.

frank carlisle · « **Reply #44 on:** May 01, 2007, 01:21:38 AM »

Not to worry Alan-----I'll follow the directios.

Neal Beekman · « **Reply #45 on:** May 01, 2007, 05:23:05 PM »

I must say I have been bitten by the Electric Clown. The Clown flies great, I went to Florida with it, no fuel, mess, or smell.and it flies great. I had problems at the start but now I am a experienced electric pilot. The charger I use is a Triton II and it takes about 55 minutes to charge after a 6 minute run, I have 2 batteries and the turn around at our field in flying season is about 1 1/2 hours so I have no problem flying. Jose Modesto flew the Clown and was amazed at the flight and the quietness of electric. Mike Pal co was a great help as the first controller did not work, John Brodak was outstanding in helping me . I now have about 25 flites on the Clown And the covering is perfect, no oil or fuel to mess things up.I thank Mike and John again I am really enjoying this New Electric Clown. See YA NEAL

frank carlisle · « **Reply #46 on:** May 01, 2007, 05:34:46 PM »

Thanks Neal.......It's great to hear from another Sup[er Clown owner.

John Paris · « **Reply #47 on:** May 01, 2007, 08:36:43 PM »

Getting a little more done. Here it is in one piece.

John Paris · « **Reply #48 on:** May 01, 2007, 08:38:50 PM »

Here are the pics of the battery slot:

John Paris · « **Reply #49 on:** May 01, 2007, 08:45:42 PM »

Finally, the hinging technique I use. The Pacer Hinge Glue seems to work pretty well and the syringe is great to control the mess and place the glue in the right spots.
John