Author Topic: My electric Super Clown (Read 8221 times)

frank carlisle · « **Reply #50 on:** May 01, 2007, 11:07:39 PM »

I never saw the Pacer glue and syringe before John. Are they standard issue hobby supply items?

John Paris · « **Reply #51 on:** May 02, 2007, 07:51:33 AM »

Frank,
The Pacer glue is standard issue stuff found at many hobby retailers. The syringes I have purchased from farming supply stores. I think that something similar may be available at some LHSs, but not 100% sure.
John

Neal Beekman · « **Reply #52 on:** May 02, 2007, 06:12:02 PM »

The hobby shop hooked me up to the Pacer glue its great and so easy to use. I too put pinned hinges on my Clown and a Carbon rod for the push rod thats the only changes that I made on the Clown, and thats the only changes I would make again ,the Clown is a great flying plane.The Battery box had to be shaved a little top & bottom for the battery to fit , the velcro holds the battery secure. I do know if you make a lawn dart out of the Clown you will have battery problems. Also I placed three 1/4 inch holes in the front behind the prop for cooling in between the engine bolts.Also when you Epoxy the nose piece on make sure it is at 0 degrees the motor pulls apart so put the motor on ( front without can) apart to check the length of the bolts mine were too short. See Ya NEAL

Mike Palko · « **Reply #53 on:** May 02, 2007, 10:06:47 PM »

Hi Neal,
Did you glass the nose or just epoxy the nose ring in place? If not, I recommend glassing the nose before you fly it again. I will do it for you at Brodaks if you don't do it!!!

Mike

Alan Hahn · « **Reply #54 on:** May 03, 2007, 03:25:30 PM »

Spoilsport!

Neal Beekman · « **Reply #55 on:** May 03, 2007, 04:14:44 PM »

Mike I have glass & epoxy It seems secure I love flying it. Also I will not be at Brodaks this year I need Rotator Cuff Surgery, and its in for May 18 so I will not be flying this Summer. I glassed the Inside not the whole nose and the prop is balanced. I Will try this weekend to get some flying in ,I changed the controls to slow it down ,I also want to move the battery a 1/4 inch forward,I know the Philly Flyer's like the planes tail heavy. See YA NEAL

frank carlisle · « **Reply #56 on:** May 03, 2007, 05:06:17 PM »

What prop are you using Neal?

Far as I can tell John Paris will be flying my Electric Super Clown this weekend. I spoke to him earlier today and he said he'd probably have a report and pix to post this evening.
John will likely have the plane at Brodak's this year.

Alan Hahn · « **Reply #57 on:** May 03, 2007, 07:03:56 PM »

Sounds like John has a sweet job. People buy him planes to put together and fly!

Hope he can bring the E-Super Clown to our July 1 Contest. It isn't sponsored or at Fermilab this year (I wasn't sure I would be around to help Fred, so it is a TreeTown event this year), but at the Aurora Airport in Sugar Grove (where the normal TreeTown Contest has been held).

frank carlisle · « **Reply #58 on:** May 03, 2007, 07:31:37 PM »

Yeah Alan---it's good work when you can get it. I've lost count of how many ARFs he's put together. This is the first one he's kept for flying though.

John makes it there for your contest every year doesn't he?
If he wants to take the Electric Super Clown with him that'll be fine with me. Maybe I can make it this year too. BUT--gas is $3.05 a gallon here and it isn't likely to get cheaper. Maybe we can carpool. Today I put $20 in the tank and went home. I had just enough gas left to make it back to the gas station. Schwinn is starting to have a nice sound to it.

John Paris · « **Reply #59 on:** May 03, 2007, 07:34:13 PM »

Everyone,
I did get everything finally assembled this evening and charged the battery using the Brodak charger and balancer while I mowed the grass. Since it was the first charge for the battery, I am not sure if the results I had were indicative of normal use. However, it appeared to be close to fully charged after 1.5 hours at the 2 amp setting. Now I say appeared because the lights on the charger were flashing between "charging" and "fully charged". According to the manual that is some type of error mode. I lowered the input current to 1.5A and got the same results after some time. I will have to see how things go with future charges. While this is a good functional starting charger system, I can already see the benefit of more advanced charges to really get an idea of what is going in/what came out of your battery.

The controller's button for the changing of time was a little tricky, but I was eventually able to set it to the 5 minute mark for the first test run. The start button gives you about 5 seconds or so before the prop starts, so either a partner or a stooge will be needed for flying. My test run was with the 8-4 APC-E prop. There was enough thrust to hold the airplane vertical, so I will keep that one on for flight #1. I do have the 9-4.5 available as well for future tuning work. The fit for the ESC was a little tight in the hole provided, but I shoehorned it in there. The placment of the timing/start switch is convenient, but a bit unsightly as is the on-off switch. I am sure that I will find another way to mount them, but will leave them alone for now.

Attached are some of the final assembly pics and placement of the ESC.

Alan,
I will probably play with this thing as long as Frank lets me. Glad to hear that your contest is still on, but why the move? Are they going to use that run up pad at Aurora for this contest like they did last year?

John

frank carlisle · « **Reply #60 on:** May 03, 2007, 07:42:59 PM »

John you can play with it as long as you care too.

But------please tell me that the placement of the timer and switch are only a temporary thing and not according to plan......please, oh please!!

Nice pix by the way. Thankyou.

John Paris · « **Reply #61 on:** May 03, 2007, 08:03:55 PM »

Frank,
That is the way they say to do it. Since I am new at this, I am not one to question. Of course, with your permission, I may make some changes.
John

Mike Palko · « **Reply #62 on:** May 03, 2007, 09:10:06 PM »

Hi John,
I never got a copy of the directions telling you to mount the timer and switch on top of the fuse.

It is ugly and has the rigged look to it. I'm with Frank, change it!!! haha

Did you put any epoxy between the fiberglass cowl and the fuselage or did you just screw/bolt it in place?

Check the temperature of the ESC on a ground run before you fly. I am not sure how much cooling it will get stuffed in that cutout.

Looks good so far!! Nice outlined build thread also. I have directed several people who have had questions about the Super Clown to this thread and the review thread.

Mike

Neal Beekman · « **Reply #63 on:** May 04, 2007, 07:22:41 AM »

i use a APC Electric 9/6 and its stock, I also fly on 62Foot 012 lines I am surprised at how well the Clown handles on 62 foot lines.I also use the Stooge as I think it's safer for me to start the motor the guys at the field are not into launching a non running motor . I press the button, the light is lit and about half way out to the handle it starts running, so no way can you use the timer to launch.I am always thinking safety as I cut myself years ago fooling with electric motors.SEE YA NEAL

Neal Beekman · « **Reply #64 on:** May 04, 2007, 04:33:45 PM »

Sorry for the wrong information I use an APC Electric 9X5.4 suggested by Mike Palco.I changed the Elevator to the bottom hole and in the wind of New York City today it was really grooving,now anyone will be able to fly it .With an old EZ Just it turns corners great. SEE YA NEAL

Mike Palko · « **Reply #65 on:** May 04, 2007, 06:18:26 PM »

I'll get this one for you Neal......

It's a APC-E 9x4.5. Sounds like she is really performing to be handling the wind on 62' lines. Wish you were going to be at Brodaks. I better see you flying the Clown at one of the Jersey meets!!!

Mike

frank carlisle · « **Reply #66 on:** May 04, 2007, 08:00:02 PM »

John,
I got another battery for you from Brodak yesterday..........................I'll check with Bob and Rick and see if one of them will sell me a charger (they both have multiples) for yard sale prices.

I think we should get along on these two batteries for now. Probably should put the money into four cell batts at some point. I wonder if the E-SC set up can handle a 4 cell?

John Paris · « **Reply #67 on:** May 04, 2007, 08:08:35 PM »

Everyone,
Flew the E-SC today. The airplane was straight and the line tension was good with 8-4 APC-E prop on 58'x.015". It did not seem exceedingly fast with this combination. I set it to run for 5 minutes and just played around with the maneuvers to see how it would fly. It hung out there fine with a little sag in the motor speed when the nose was pointed up (airplane climbing). I did encounter some stalls on vertical 8 and the square 8s I did. To counter this I may try a little bit of tail weight and also will try to ease into the maneuvers a little more. BTW, the ready to fly weight came in at 32.2 oz with the balance about on the front lead-out.

Now that I have 2 charges on the battery and a run or two on the motor, I have questions.

1. With the Brodak charger and balancer it says that a steady green light on the charger means that the battery is fully charged. The best I can get is a flashing back and forth between the red charging light and green fully charged light. For the charge that I did today, this first flashing occurred at about 1:33 of charging at the 2A setting. Up to this point, the charger was a bit warm. After it was cooler to the touch. I stopped charging at 2:15. The balancer usually starts with light #3 coming on and off after a while of charging. It then cycles through lights #1 and #3 for a while and then finally #1, #2 and #3 cycling on and off together. This usually occurs near the point where the I get the alternate flashing between the red and green on the charger. My question is "What does all of this mean?". The instructions are lacking in this area.

2. Can the time used to get to the "fully charged/alternating light" point be used to determine the amount of charge used in the previous flight? For example, I am charging at 2A for 1.5 hours or putting in 3000mAh back into the battery. If my battery is 4000mAh, I am using about 75% of the charge. This is at the edge of what I would like to drain to according to what I have read here and elsewhere. Fair statement?

3. When the motor spools up to run there is a period of vibration before it takes off and runs. Initially I thought I was spinning the shaft on the prop, but observing the can, I know this is not the case. Is this a normal thing for this type of motor?

4. On the timer when the "blip" occurs to signal the end of flight, the propeller almost comes to a complete stop and then fires up again. At the end of flight the propeller quickly almost comes to a complete stop only slowly rotating a few turns from power off to touch down (with a decent glide). Is this normal? Most of the other E-planes I have seen seem to rotate a bit more. I have checked and the can (as well as I can tell) and prop shaft are clear of obstruction.

Photos before and after to be posted tomorrow. I will need to see if the little woman got any of it in flight.

Mike and Frank,
I do plan on some modifications for timer and switch mounting. It did stay in place well during my test flight though. When I get something clean looking, I will post a picture. Mike-the ESC was not hot on the ground run I did yesterday and it was fine when I checked post flight today.

John

John Paris · « **Reply #68 on:** May 04, 2007, 08:11:22 PM »

I think we should get along on these two batteries for now. Probably should put the money into four cell batts at some point. I wonder if the E-SC set up can handle a 4 cell?

Frank,
2 batteries should be fine. As for a 4 cell, I don't think there is enough room for it in the wing unless we go to smaller capacity. For this airplane the 3 cell appears to be fine
John

frank carlisle · « **Reply #69 on:** May 04, 2007, 08:30:59 PM »

I forgot about the limited battery space John.

That's a good analysis of your first flight. You're much more scientific about this than I. Hey---I guess that's why you got saddled with the job, eh?

Are you going to take it to Brodak?

John Paris · « **Reply #70 on:** May 04, 2007, 08:43:11 PM »

Frank,
I don't about the scientific part of things, but I do hope to look at things with the purpose of understanding. We both know that I was saddled with this one because you have a hard time sleeping and looking at yourself in the mirror after assembling an ARF.

I will be taking the E-SC around with me to various contests that I attend to let some people take a drive on it. And of course I will be using it around here on the days between my gas powered flying just to keep things interesting.
John

JimnAZ · « **Reply #71 on:** May 04, 2007, 10:24:28 PM »

After reading this thread and having been flying electric RC Planes and Helicopters for the last couple of years, I decided to get back to UC where I started nearly a half century ago.

I had some issues with the kit(early kit that is) and John was great in addressing them QUICKLY!

I have built a bunch of my own motors and seeing the one in the kit made me wonder about its manufacturer as well as the ESC and the Timer.

For anyone still with me, the ESC is a constant speed design that you cannot vary the speed on. It will only run WOT and you cannot throttle it. The timer is also only working on this ESC so that makes it a proprietary thing. I mean, there is absolutely nothing wrong with this and this approach considering the target group for it.

Question for John or Mike Palko. Can you identify the Manufacturer of the motor and electric controls? Reason I ask is that the motor has a twelve pole stator (29.5mm diameter and 12mm deep) and ten magnets. This makes it a DLRK design for speed. It is also terminated in Delta which makes it a High RPM motor with relatively high amp draw. I have wound a similar size motor to the Brodak one with comparable RPM and less amp draw that I will be testing on the E-SC.

John.....When will the Brodak site be updated with the electric supplies data. I cannot find the motor, ESC and timer or Battery information.

By the way, I am using a ThunderPower Pro-Lite 3S 4000 battery in mine when it is completed. Is the Brodak battery similar in size and performance?

Thanks guys for letting me ramble a bit.

Jim

Alan Hahn · « **Reply #72 on:** May 04, 2007, 11:08:41 PM »

A couple of comments on stuff posted since my last post.

Frank,
I don't think a 4 cell lipo would be much use on this motor---it has a high kV so it would want to spin pretty fast. As it is it probably is turning ~12k rpm with a 9-4.5 prop on the 3 cells. A 4 cell lipo would probably get you to 15k! And at that power, the ESC and/or motor might overheat and self-destruct.

John Paris---the vibration has two possibilities--first the ESC is trying to turn on the motor, but doesn't know which way it is going to go, so it tries to get the motor to turn in order to detect the feedback signals. This is right as the motor turns on. The other possibility is that your nose ring is about ready to let loose--see my review! Actually a third possibility is that you are running through a resonance in the nose of the fuse. Even tho' the vibration level is pretty low, it is still there and can excite the resonance as it sweeps through it.

And for Jim I have a couple of questions as he seems to know something about the stock ESC.
I did try to use the jmp-2 timer on the stock ESC with no luck. I assumed it was because the ESC had some arming sequence that the jmp-2 didn't follow. I assumed that the ESC at least used a pulse width modulated throttle signal like an RC receiver would supply---it is just so common and the connectors were the same. Since the stock timer can blip the ESC signaling the end of the flight---and also slowly ramp up the speed, there must be some type of throttle input. So the question is whether it is really non-standard? It would have been nice to at least be standard and I would have thought it would be cheaper too.

By the way, it would be nice to have a spec sheet on the stock electronics. The reason I mention this is that after you buy the stock system, it would be fun to experiment a bit without having to buy a whole new system. If I had my wish, the system would have the following capabilities:
1) 20 second wait after pushing the start to let you get out to the handle before power was turned on.
2) a throttle of sorts to let one adjust the top end between 80%-100% full power

But like Mike has mentioned, I understand that John Brodak was trying to keep the costs down.

JimnAZ · « **Reply #73 on:** May 05, 2007, 02:21:32 PM »

For Alan,

I also tried the JMP-2 timer on the ESC with no luck. I tried a servo tester I use for running motors also with no luck. Looking at the ESC closely shows there are no multiple FETs and what appears to be a metal heatsink under the shrink wrap. If that is a heatsink, it would probably work better if the airflow could get to it.

I concurr highly with alan's wishlist for a little noger time between pushing the button and the motor starting up. Being ale to lower the top RMP or at least adjust it for a few hundred RPm would certainly be a plus.

Question for you Alan, how do you get your timer/ESC to ramp up gradually? Mine just goes to full throttle.

I also have a Jeti 30 amp ESC and a JMP-2 I plan to try on this Clown.

A little off topic here, but I am drawing up another plane along the moments of the SC for my next project. Tail moment will be a little longer and appearance will be different. I don't really understand why we as a collective group seem to be hung up on building the old designs we grew up with and not really exploring new designs as well as new materials. On another thread someone asked where the new youngsters are. This could be one of the factors if all we want to do is live in the past and re-live old times. Today's kids really think they have be fast,.... fast, and in a hurry to do everything and don't have time for a more sedate QUALITY way of relaxation/hobby.

And another thought. Yes this ESC will work on a 4S(tried it). The motor really is too high a Kv rating for 4S but a milder motor wind could easily spin an 11 inch to 13 inch prop. The stator diameter is a good size to build on.

Anyone know who makes this motor for Brodak?

Jim

Alan Hahn · « **Reply #74 on:** May 05, 2007, 05:02:52 PM »

Jim,
I am going by memory on the stock ramp up--it has been some months since I used it. It certainly isn't full on at one shot. I recall something like a second or so type turn on. Currently I am using a JMP-2 and a Castle Creations Phoenix 35 to play around with the Super Clown. I am using governor mode, and the spool up is really slow compared to the stock setup.

JimnAZ · « **Reply #75 on:** May 05, 2007, 09:32:08 PM »

Hi Alan,

Sorry, my bad. When you said ramp up, I thought you meant like on the JMP-2 timer where You press the button and it runs up gradually to a pre-set RPM and then it will spin up to whatever RPM you had set it to.

The Brodak timer lets you push the button and then after a slight delay, the motor then spins up to WOT without the gradual spin up of the JMP.

It would defintely be a plus if the timer paused for more of length then spins up. Being able to set an RPM of less than 100% would also be nice.

Oh well, I have a JMP-2 and a Zigras timer to play with also. Looking at the Brodak timer/ESC makes me think this would be a great combination for flying a speed(sport?) plane? There are plenty of motors in this size range(30 - 35 amps) that would be great for a speedy plane to fly fast and level just for fun or even a trainer type. This is very achieveable on an inexpensive 2100 3S battery for less weight and fun performance. Anyone up for a double size Goldberg Li'l Wizard?.

Jim

Alan Hahn · « **Reply #76 on:** May 06, 2007, 10:56:58 AM »

Jim,
Rather than hijacking Frank's thread, I was thinking about starting a new thread on Electric Super Clown modifications. It is a little delicate because I don't want to be seen as slamming the original Super Clown hardware, which works as advertised (once the business of the nose ring is handled correctly).

frank carlisle · « **Reply #77 on:** May 06, 2007, 12:45:54 PM »

Alan, I wouldn't consider this thread as being hi-jacked if you use it to talk mods to the Super Clown. We're already here and listening anyway. And I think that it's a good topic. John has gotten far enough into the stock configuration to ascertain that the plane works as promised by Brodak.
It's time to talk enhancements.

Alan Hahn · « **Reply #78 on:** May 06, 2007, 04:16:26 PM »

Here is something which I have just done, and is a modification of the plane.

Here is one ne thing that I have recently noticed in my flying data from the Super Clown. Since I am interested in keeping the power budget down, I am always looking at the current draw for the 2 level laps during the flight. Since I am running governor mode, the CC Phoenix ESC tries to keep the motor rpm constant by adjusting the current. What I have been noticing, I think, is that the average current being drawn in the last laps is higher than the current in the intial laps, yet the rpm is being kept constant. It isn't a big deal, 20 amps compared to 19 amps/

Now the only thing I can think of is for the current to rise while the rpm stays constant is that the back-emf from the motor must be dropping. In other words the permanent magnets are losing a little of their field--I assume due to their heating up during the flight. I don't think it is a permanent loss.

If this is true, then I think it means we need to get more air into the motor. In stock form, there is no inlet for air into the motor--it is blocked by the nose ring, and if you are using it, the fiberglass cowl. Anyway since I am not using the cowl, I was able to dremel out the nose ring (today) to allow some cooling air to enter the front of the motor. I will see if this does any good. This is a little surprising since the plane is a profile and the outer motor bell (with the magnets) is being cooled I think by the normal airflow. Of course in the heat of the summer it might be a bigger deal. But anything to cut down the power use!

Dean Pappas · « **Reply #79 on:** May 06, 2007, 04:48:43 PM »

Hi Alan,
Don't worry ... be happy ... and know that everything is going to be alright!
You don't have a problem: what you see is proper.
Maintaining the same RPM requiers the same Watts.
Since the battery voltage is down, at the end of the flight, the current must be higher!
It's bound to be higher by the ratio of the battery voltage during the initial laps to the voltage during the last laps.
I've had good lresults importing the data-logger files into Excel and doing arithmetic to prove stuff like this.

later,
Dean

Alan Hahn · « **Reply #80 on:** May 06, 2007, 05:41:38 PM »

Dean,
Since I am running in governor mode, the voltage at the motor is being compensated for by the ESC (I am running ~8500rpm at approximately 2/3 throttle or less--estimated--on a 1500 kV motor with a 3s1p battery). If the battery voltage was dropping past the value needed to keep the amps constant , the amps would also drop, as would the rpm. Nothing I can see would make the amps go up (physics is still physics). I am also monitoring the battery voltage, and yes it is dropping, but it is still high enough to keep the amps flowing.

In terms of tracking where the energy is going, a lot is being "wasted" in the ESC right now. What I mean by this is that I could be using a 2s1p lipo and still get the rpm on this 10-7 prop. Of course this is where I am headed in my attempt to reduce weight--lose one cell that isn't needed for this particular low-wind motor.

John Paris · « **Reply #81 on:** May 06, 2007, 07:47:38 PM »

Everyone,
Had problems getting the pics uploaded last night, so they will be put on tonight. The recharge after flight number 1 was about an hour so I assume at the 2A rate I am using about 50% of the battery which I believe is good. I ran a second flight today and another charge with about an hour passing until I get the full charge flash from the Brodak charger. Due to the lack of information with the charger and balancer, I will have to go with the basic calculations and believe that things are fine. At least they are consistent.

Do you guys think it would be worthwhile to suggest some Li-Po use and care tips with respect to charging and discharging to John Brodak to include in either his airplane manual or a sheet with the battery? At $100 a pop I would worry about a new comer getting thrown off by shortened battery life. I know that we have the boards here to ask questions, but Joe Bellcrank may not.

My son had the airplane duties this evening and he commented that it was "spooky" that the airplane could start up and take off on its own.

Back to the motor run performance, I checked over the points that Alan mentioned and can only believe that it is the motor initializing before deciding which way to spin. I have the fiberglass cowl in place and everything seems fairly tight and secure. Also the blip and end of run must have some braking programmed in or some juice flowing to limit the freewheel of the prop. After I landed, I checked to see how free it turned, and it did not. When I turned the switch off it freewheeled fine. I turned the switch back on and hit the start switch and after the prop started, hit the start switch (now the stop switch) and the prop freewheeled to a stop and spun freely. It really is not a performance issue that I can tell, just an observation and I would like to be sure that everything is running as it should.

Frank should be happy as I have managed to avoid the ground with this thing so far.

John

JimnAZ · « **Reply #82 on:** May 06, 2007, 07:59:59 PM »

Hi Alan,

I don't think your comments are hijacking Frank's thread one bit. Please don't take my comments as slamming the Brodak system either.

On cooling of the motor:

86 the cowling until winter when the motor will need to be warm.

The cooling holes in the nose ring are a good idea since the hottest part of the motor is the stator, which is bolted to the motor mounting area of the motor. The rotor is quite cool during operatioin comparatively and is the part to get the least warm during operation if there is air circulating anywhere near it.

During operation, I have discovered that the stator gets to around 60 degrees Celsius or arouind 130 degrees F. If you use the motor mount as a heatsink and get air to flow over it, the temperature during operation will drop noticeably. The ESC also could use some airflow over it so I have cut a small slot on the inboard side of the fuse and attached a very small scoop to it to ram a little air into the ESC cutout and it exits over the ESC to the outside of the flying circle.

Please be aware that if you go to a 2S pack, you need to make sure the battery can deliver the increased amp demand compared to a 3S pack. It might be lighter but the ESC will need more amps for the motor and pack temperature will go higher.

It is all a balncing act.

Jim

frank carlisle · « **Reply #83 on:** May 06, 2007, 08:29:15 PM »

John- I'm very happy that you haven't put it in the dirt. You made me a little nervous when you mentioned letting other people fly it ( I keep remembering the times we let other guys fly our Bi-Slobs) but hey, you be the judge.
Based on my experience with the Smoothie and on what Jim and Alan are saying, it looks like you've got it working right. Now if you would kindly put the decals on it....................

Jim, Alan, Dean---- you guys are doing a great job with this electric stuff. Your input is starting to make sense to me and even though I haven't had anything to do with the Super Clown I'm beginning to get a good grasp of the system. I think once the contest season is over I'm going to take another run at putting an electric stunter together. Except this time I'm going to build a plane instead of using an ARF.

Keep up the good work guys--------I'm learning a lot. And it's cool to be learning in an armchair while you guys go out and do all the work.
Gotta love it!

Decals John--Decals.

John Paris · « **Reply #84 on:** May 07, 2007, 07:30:28 AM »

Glare deck too Frank?
John

frank carlisle · « **Reply #85 on:** May 07, 2007, 07:55:17 AM »

nah, skip the glare deck John.

I hope you can get those verticle maneuvers worked out. Have you tried the other prop yet?

We need to get this other battery to you. Any ideas?

Mike Palko · « **Reply #86 on:** May 07, 2007, 04:27:25 PM »

A full 9" diameter prop should help the vertical. The lines should be 58'-62' x .015. Any longer and performance will suffer. What's the lap speed? Whats the static current draw?

I know some have asked about the motor, ESC and timer. All I can say is the timer/ESC is designed and built by a Chinese manufacturer for Brodak (proprietary). The motor is an off the shelf Chinese motor repackaged for Brodak. The design(s) as mentioned before had to be affordable, it had to work well and be simple to operate. That was the only criteria. It is intended for beginners. The customer does have the choice of buying only the parts you want/need. If you don't like the ESC or timer you don't have to buy it.

An example of the savings: a Thunder Power 4000mah 3S pack is $150, a CC Phoenix-45 is $100, a Astro Flight 109 is $120, a JMP/Zigras timer is $30, misc. connectors $10-20, a AXI motor is $80 and the ARF is about $60, so you can see it is doing it's job quite well. The price is cheap, and the airplane flies well out of the box, but it was never intended to have high efficiency, or compatibility, or even be a leading edge ESC/motor/timer design. It didn't have to be.

A note about the ESC handling a 4S pack. I am not sure if the FETs can handle the voltage (I would assume they can). I have never tested the ESC at this voltage because it was not a requirement. I also don't know what the BEC will do with 14.8 volts. I do know it is rated for 45amps with a 3S pack. I would bench run it first if you choose to run a 4S pack.

I hope this helps answer some questions. I might be able to get more information about the ESC/timer if for some reason people really need to know.

Mike

John Paris · « **Reply #87 on:** May 07, 2007, 07:12:31 PM »

Mike,
Thanks for the replies on this thread. I don't think I answered the question regarding the cowl, but it is glued in place and seems to have made the nose a touch more rigid.

So far I have been impressed with the Brodak package in both cost and performance. It certainly is a good value as you have identified and is fairly straight forward to use. The only quality problem that I have encountered with the set up is the timer selection button on the timer being a bit tricky to work, but I am able to change time settings pretty well now that I have figured out how it likes to be pressed. The start button has worked without issue from day one. The timer and switch placement could have been improved in the instructions, but is fairly stable and functional (the engineers dream).

The only shortcoming that I see with the set up is that there is a lack of practical detail about the system. I do not mean the technical stuff like schematics for the timer or the number of windings on the motor, but information about good practices with Li-Po batteries with respect to charging and discharging, tips for how to determine the amount of charge used when using the Brodak charger, why it is important to charge with a balancer and perhaps some of the potential impacts of changes in this system (prop effect on energy used, run time effect on energy used, etc). I think that this would go a long way for the pilot new to electric control line not to mention for a new pilot.

I will copy this post and send it to John Brodak for his review. Most know that I am not new to CL but this is my first poke at the electric side of things. What I was hoping to do with it (thanks to Frank for the opportunity) was to see what practical and useful information I could get using the entire Brodak set up and try to share that with the masses over here on Stunt Hangar. Still on the upside of the learning curve.

John

ADDED: Does the ESC have a low voltage cut off to protect against over discharge of the battery or is this left to be a function of the pilot?

Mike Palko · « **Reply #88 on:** May 07, 2007, 09:55:37 PM »

Hi John,
The instructions (users manual) have been a problem from day one. The original instructions never made it into the box, but as far as I know the problem has been taken care of. I don't know if enough information is provided even with the correct instructions. I have written an article on lipo's for the next issue of CLW. I realize not every Brodak customer reads CLW, but it is a start for anyone who follows the column. This is an important issue that should be covered if it hasn't already been.

As for the low voltage cutoff (LVC) the ESC should have one built in. The prototype I used had one, but if you plan on testing it I would recommend using NiMH or NiCD cells, don't risk a lipo. So far I have never had a timer fail Brodak or Z-Tron (I haven't used a JMP yet). Because of this, I have never had to rely on a LVC (thankfully).

Mike

Alan Hahn · « **Reply #89 on:** May 12, 2007, 10:38:01 PM »

One idea is to post the instructions on the stock ESC and the electric timer on Brodak's site.

I agree with John and you that when it comes to the electric installation, the instruction manual sort of drops you off in unfamiliar territory. It isn't helped by the production motor and stuff are different from the photo's in the manual. That was my main criticism in my E-Super Clown review.

Of course if you have any RC experience with a brushless system, you have already seen most of the needed info. But if it is the first time, then it is tough!

Anyway, I agree the stock electric stuff is a great bargain, and the plane flies great (once that nose is glued on tight!) with it as is.

John Paris · « **Reply #90 on:** May 19, 2007, 06:52:41 PM »

Everyone,
I installed the 9x4.5 and had a chance to fly it last night after prepping the field for today's activities and found that it flew much better. Quite a bit faster on the flat and level, but managable and just about right in the maneuvers. Certainly the right combination in the wind. I was able to post a victory in OTS during our clinic/challenge today with the airplane. Frank Carlisle even got a chance to give it a flight and I think that he was fairly impressed with it.

I think that recommended 8x4 prop would be a good choice for the beginning pilot that allows enough speed and pull to fly the basic items and the simple upgrade of changing a prop to improve performance certainly makes this a decent package.
John

frank carlisle · « **Reply #91 on:** May 19, 2007, 07:08:59 PM »

John is right-- I was impressed with how the E-SC flew. It looked fast from the outside of the circle but when I flew it, it felt real good. In my opinion in the right hands ( like John's ) it can be compeititve. In my hands it can be a fun sport plane. And in a beginners hands it could be an easy trainer without the mess and fuss of learning how to run a glow engine.
The electric system could easily be mastered by anyone. John Brodak put out a winner here.

John Paris · « **Reply #92 on:** May 29, 2007, 07:56:22 PM »

Everyone,
I have put a few more flights on Frank's airplane using the 6 minute option on the timer and the power appears to be fairly consistent (maybe a little bit faster in the very beginning) right to the end of the run. Battery recharge times with the 2A selection on the charger was about 1.5 hours. I had the battery with 7 previous charges on it actually light up and keep lit the "Fully Charged" light on the charger. Battery #2 with 3 previous charges still had the red and green light bounce action with no steady green.

The airplane flys reasonably well, but seems to stall on the outside maneuvers a little more than the insides. Flaps blanking the tail??? In any case, I will try a little tail weight to see if I can improve the turn a bit without the stall as well as try not to punch the controls so hard.

One of the nice features of this airplane is the stealth. I fly in my back yard and try not to disturb the neighbors by not flying two days in a row. Now with the electric option, those odd days are good for a couple of flights with the E-SC.

John

Mike Palko · « **Reply #93 on:** May 29, 2007, 11:03:04 PM »

Hi John,
You could try reducing the flap movement to help with the stall issue. (If you haven't already.)

Mike

Dennis Adamisin · « **Reply #94 on:** May 30, 2007, 06:21:26 AM »

Mike's suggestion will help, another similar would be to cut off the last 3"-4" or so of the flaps and glue them solid. It will have a similar impact as tailweight - without the weight!

John Paris · « **Reply #95 on:** May 30, 2007, 10:23:25 AM »

Dennis and Mike,
Thanks for the suggestions. I had thought about the F:E ratio change and was saving that for a little further downstream as it will speed up the stock controls quite a bit. I can probably counter this with line spacing. Since this is Frank's airplane, I will stay away from the hardcore modifications for now (cut and paste...)

Actually the plane flys well in the OTS pattern as is, but I wanted to see how it would do in the standard pattern and was not disappointed. Just looking for ways to make it a little better is all.
John

frank carlisle · « **Reply #96 on:** May 30, 2007, 04:00:53 PM »

John,
You do whatever you think needs to be done on that plane. Get hardcore if you want. I would like for you to post pix as you make the changes so I can track them for my own education.And for the benefit of future E-SC buyers.

Dennis Adamisin · « **Reply #97 on:** June 17, 2007, 07:00:17 PM »

Just got back from Brodak's where John let me fly Frank's electric SC - thanks John, uhh I mean thanks Frank - oh you know what I mean! Like John P. I have a big enough backyard for some e-flying so I was really interested in seeing how it worked, would have settled for WATCHING it fly til John said "YOU fly it"!.

Anyhow, I was amazed at how very well this combination works! I was expecting it to be a lot softer power than it was - maybe like a Fox 35, but it behaved more like a hot 35. Plenty of power for a complete pattern. I also stalled it in squares - probably a combination of ham-handed Pilot and 32oz on a SC airframe - there are limits to what that airplane is capable of e-power or "slimer". But the power package motored it right back up to speed. Given the speed/power I think the power system would handle a slightly larger/draggier airframe well too. In fact a complete power system followed us home...

BTW the three e-power stunters in the contest did just fine. Mike P's being the most "purpose built", Linehart's Bearcat being adapted from the old ST46 sized the design and Jerry W(?) using an modified Vector ARF.

Might have to talk Big Art into making aluminum parts for electrics to replace his soon to be dwindling muffler business!

John Paris · « **Reply #98 on:** June 18, 2007, 10:16:33 AM »

Dennis,
It was good meeting you and your brother out at Brodak's. You know that the best way to evaluate anything is to try it out yourself, that is why you got to fly it. Keep us up to date on what you do with the power system you took home so that we can all know what it is capable of.
John

-If I have the plane with me and someone wants to fly it, just let me know.

frank carlisle · « **Reply #99 on:** June 18, 2007, 12:16:27 PM »

Quote from: John Paris on June 18, 2007, 10:16:33 AM

Dennis,
It was good meeting you and your brother out at Brodak's. You know that the best way to evaluate anything is to try it out yourself, that is why you got to fly it. Keep us up to date on what you do with the power system you took home so that we can all know what it is capable of.
John

-If I have the plane with me and someone wants to fly it, just let me know.

Gosh John-------your generosity with my Super Clown almost brings me to tears.
Dennis----------I got to fly it once myself. I'm happy you got the power train, now to see what you and Archie come up with.

John, I hope you know that I'm just being sarcastic about you and the Super Clown. Your second best skill after building is repairing. So have at it with letting guys fly it. Maybe we'll get some recognition for campaigning it for John B.

Author Topic: My electric Super Clown (Read 8221 times)

Alan Hahn

Alan Hahn

Alan Hahn

Alan Hahn

Alan Hahn

Alan Hahn

Alan Hahn

Alan Hahn