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Author Topic: MP Max Bee  (Read 3160 times)

Offline Matt Piatkowski

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MP Max Bee
« on: December 20, 2017, 03:54:47 PM »
Hello,
I have spent the last three years building and modifying glow and electric planes, flying, destroying, building something else, flying again, destroying again and so on.

It was time consuming, expensive and frustrating but I have learned a lot.

Now, I fly the pattern well enough to build something that will fly well enough to allow me to improve the corners, the hourglass and whatever is there to improve.

I got the set of Max Bee ribs from Patrick MacKenzie (thanks Patrick!) and partially finished the wing for this plane (please see the attachment).

Details: I am building the Max Bee wing in one piece but it will be removable. This what you see weights 128 grams ( 4.5 oz. ). The fixture cost is $11.50 CAD - three pieces of the drywall mount "C" shape steel beams from Home Depot supporting the L.E and the T.E.- Tom Morris style.

I hope all of you will see how this very simple and light fixture helps in building a very straight balsa wing.
Please contact me directly at matt.piatkowski@gmail.com if you need clarification.

Happy Holidays (Merry Christmas for me)

Matt



Offline Vincent Judd

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Re: MP Max Bee
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2017, 07:08:05 PM »
Great start Matt, looking good.   I hope to build one myself in the near future.

Wondering if you have chosen the power system (motor/battery/esc/prop) for your Bee yet.

Vince

Offline Joe Yau

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Re: MP Max Bee
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2017, 08:41:54 PM »

I got the set of Max Bee ribs from Patrick MacKenzie (thanks Patrick!) 


Cool.. didn't know Patrick or anyone else has the Max Bee ribs.  :) 

Offline Daniel_Munro

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Re: MP Max Bee
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2017, 12:53:46 AM »
Looks fantastic. I recently acquired a Max Bee and itís a wonderful plane. Trimming it is challenging my limited experience buts I am getting there slowly.

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: MP Max Bee
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2017, 05:21:29 AM »
Max Bee.

Absolutely a great looking model.

Good start Matt!  H^^

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Offline Matt Piatkowski

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Re: MP Max Bee
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2018, 04:16:41 PM »
Hello,
I was busy with logistics of my trip to EU in May, June and July 2018 and made some progress only recently. Please see the attachments.

70-75% of the foam from the horizontal stabilizer will be removed after I finish shaping it, leaving only 1/4" wide foam ribs, spaced 2.25". Then, I will skin the stabilizer with 1/16" 6.8 lbs./cu. inch balsa. The elevator is made using two slightly curved shells, made using 1/16" 6.5 lbs./cu. inch balsa (only one is shown). The aluminum tubes, that will be glued with epoxy between both shells, are for the elevator's horn. The horns type and geometry are from Igor's plans but there is a slot in the elevator's horn. By moving a slider that can be locked in this slot, the throw of the elevator can be adjusted very precisely.

When the entire horizontal tail assembly is ready, I will spray paint it directly on bare balsa. Then, I will sand the painted balsa surfaces with #300-400 sand paper, spray paint again, sand again and paint for the third time. Then, I will cover everything with Doculam. This method was used on my eParrot and the results were very encouraging. Three very thin coats of some acrylic paint in electric / candy colors are normally enough to have the balsa surface reasonably smooth and ready for the transparent shrinkable covering.

Cobra 3515/18 with Pol-Prop 11.5 x 6" and 5S 2800 mAh. Thunder Power battery is shown. This motor can be used also with Igor's carbon composite propellers and 6S 2800 mAh. Thunder Power. I am planning to try two combinations of ESC and timers, including Igor's active timer.

The grass gear with grass wheels having 2.5" diameter is shown. Smaller wheels (2 " dia.) are for the hard surface. Weight difference of 5 grams is negligible but larger wheels handle better the grassy and sometimes a bit bumpy terrain.

The plane will be take-apart with the entire wing as one piece, the tail assembly as two pieces and fuselage as another piece. Everything will go into the box 63" x 12" x 15" for air transport.

Regards,
M

   


Offline Lauri Malila

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Re: MP Max Bee
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2018, 07:43:10 PM »
Doesnít Igor have something to say about that reversed bellcrank..?

Lauri

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: MP Max Bee
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2018, 11:10:49 PM »
Everything will go into the box 63" x 12" x 15" for air transport.

What airline will take that size box now?
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: MP Max Bee
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2018, 11:13:04 PM »
Doesnít Igor have something to say about that reversed bellcrank..?

Note sign change from the flap device.
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Offline Matt Piatkowski

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Re: MP Max Bee
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2018, 11:19:27 AM »
Lauri,
B-crank has to be mounted this way for the original Igor's logarithmic control system. Howard used the term "sign change", you used and I use the term reversed b-crank.

Howard,
Polish Airlines (PLL Lot) will take such box as the additional checked baggage. I have it in writing from them. I am flying PLL Lot from Toronto, Canada to Warsaw, Poland and back. The cost: $254 CAD one way. By the way: hard shell containers for snowboards have dimensions similar to my box. I was considering such container but finally decided to order a plywood box that is better tailored to the model's dimensions, including the foam padding.

Regards,
M

Offline Matt Piatkowski

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Re: MP Max Bee
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2018, 06:43:39 AM »
Hello,

More work has been done on elevator. Please see the attachments.

After consulting Igor, I have added short spars to the elevator. In Igor's original design, these spars are machined using the PCB material.
I have decided to use the 1/16" plywood, reinforced in the critical area by CA. I called the critical areas "forks" and it is easy to see where they are.

Because Max Bee II elevator is thin (1/4") and large, these forks help to transfer the forces to larger area of the elevator's 1/16" balsa shells.
At this moment, both halves of the elevator are together for ease of gluing the shells together. I will separate and shape the elevator's halves later.

This what you see on the photos weights 68 grams. I expect to shave about 10 grams forming the horizontal stabilizer and add about 20 grams skinning it.

M

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: MP Max Bee
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2018, 10:22:09 AM »
Polish Airlines (PLL Lot) will take such box as the additional checked baggage. I have it in writing from them. I am flying PLL Lot from Toronto, Canada to Warsaw, Poland and back. The cost: $254 CAD one way.

Good to know that option is available, if pricey.  I flew LOT from Chicago to Warsaw with a 62"-total-dimension box free in 2014.  Wings are removable from my dog individually.  The wing takeapart hardware was designed by a Boeing stress man and made by a Boeing machinist, so you know it's good.   
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Offline TDM

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Re: MP Max Bee
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2018, 01:34:29 PM »
Howard if I was making those parts they would be even better :)
Matt what is the purpose of the aluminium tubes? And what is the purpose of the vertical ply pieces I am a litle lost.

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Offline Matt Piatkowski

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Re: MP Max Bee
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2018, 03:35:05 PM »
Hi Traian,
The horn (3/32" steel wire) goes into these tubes and I will not glue it with epoxy.
I have learned the hard way that over-restraining such connection by gluing leads to increased resistance of the angular movement of the elevator (and flaps too).

The AL tubes are held in place by the ply pieces that act as short spars. Because nobody knows the maximum value of the aerodynamic forces that are developed on the elevator in corners, I decided to play it safe and add these spars for strength. The Max Bee II elevator is very thin and there is not enough material to carry the transverse shear from the horn without such spars. The Igor's Max Bee II has these spars CNCed using the PCB material but he has a lot of parts made by CNC. I do not have such luxury, ply is simply easier to deal with using the hand tools and glues well using the epoxy resin.

Regards,
M



Offline Igor Burger

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Re: MP Max Bee
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2018, 01:25:37 AM »
The AL tubes are held in place by the ply pieces that act as short spars. Because nobody knows the maximum value of the aerodynamic forces that are developed on the elevator in corners, I decided to play it safe and add these spars for strength. The Max Bee II elevator is very thin and there is not enough material to carry the transverse shear from the horn without such spars. The Igor's Max Bee II has these spars CNCed using the PCB material but he has a lot of parts made by CNC. I do not have such luxury, ply is simply easier to deal with using the hand tools and glues well using the epoxy resin.

just for record:

1/ those mine machined composite parts are used only on take apart version which I had in Perth and those forks are there to be joined from side with elevator horn. One piece versie have elevator made from 6mm balsa and horns are glued in holes. If you do all hinges and horn bearings coaxial, there is not need to worry about additional friction if horn is glued, also in case that horn "legs" are not perfectly perpendicular.

2/ Forces are low (compared with flaps) mine Max has calculated elevator push rod force less that 5N, so the rest you can calculate yourself. Just to compare - the flap pushrod force is over 30N and MAX 60 (classic controlls without second bellcrank like used by Richie K. ) has over 50N - means 10x more than elevator.

Offline Igor Burger

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Re: MP Max Bee
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2018, 01:49:16 AM »


Mat here I see little bit problem, those 2 forks will carry all the torque from horn, so you must connect them, but I think it is not enough to connect them only by elevator skin, they hould be conneced by some closed structure, I have small block of balsa betveen them, here I will suggest minimally closing ribs on both sides of those forks, so it will make closed box between them.

Offline Matt Piatkowski

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Re: MP Max Bee
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2018, 06:53:21 AM »
Hi Igor,
I agree with your suggestion.
Please note the black dashed lines. I will cut roughly along these dashed lines and will fill the spaces around AL tubes with balsa.
Then, I will cap the left and right elevator's halves inside edges with light ply.

At this moment, the elevator is in one piece as it helped to glue it straight.

The weight of the assembly as photographed : 59 grams. The stabilizer is almost shaped but still needs some delicate sanding.

After the foam "windows" are cut open (you can see the ghost images of the holes through the top foam layer) and I add 1/16" skins and tips, the estimated weight, with hinges, horn and before painting and covering with Silkspan and Doculam, should be around 80 grams.

Because I am building the take apart tail the weight of it will unfortunately creep up. How much? I do not know at this moment as this is the first take-apart plane I am building. We will see.

Regards,
M


Offline TDM

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Re: MP Max Bee
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2018, 07:09:31 AM »
I get it now that is the elevator part not the horizontal stab side.
A tip for you: You only need to constrain the tip of the steel rod last 1/4in or so and the rest of the rod needs clearance (more clearance will be better). So a 1/4 long aluminum tube is enough. It will give you a much smoother movement and it will be more forgiving in alignment.
If the elevator is thin then add some unidirectional carbon on top and bottom before you sheet the stab. 
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Offline Matt Piatkowski

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Re: MP Max Bee
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2018, 05:40:42 PM »
Traian,
Please note that the tubes are already glued and they are 1.5" long.
The tubes having this length react the load coming from the horn better than short (1/4") tubes. Please imagine the load path. Both spars react the load as transverse shear that acts on the ply to balsa epoxy. Epoxy allowable shear is ~2.5 times higher than medium balsa allowable shear, therefore I had to increase the perimeter of shear acting on balsa. This is the reason why there are additional flat balsa pieces (doublers) in the center of the elevator.

Like I wrote responding to Igor, the elevator will sliced in halves, the central portion of it will be discarded and the ply spars area will be filled with balsa and capped for strength.

Thanks,
M

Offline Igor Burger

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Re: MP Max Bee
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2018, 03:31:58 AM »
The tubes having this length react the load coming from the horn better than short (1/4") tubes.

Right, the horn must transfer TORQUE, not simple force, that is why I have two of those forks, not only one (eqivalent of one short tube). However if you want transfer that torque to elevator by those forks, you must fix them together, now you have fixed them only by thin skin, so I would add closing rib also on the other side of forks, not only on place of tube.

Offline Matt Piatkowski

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Re: MP Max Bee
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2018, 05:42:21 AM »
Hi Igor,
I see your point and will add short ribs on the other side of the forks.

My flaps (attachment, please) need a bit more torsional stiffness.

I have started another thread regarding this (https://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/flaps-design/) and of course people have many different ideas, some not really practical in my case and now. My flaps (1/4" thick, rectangular c-section, balsa: 8.5-9 lbs./ft ^3 density ) weight at this moment: 31 grams the outside and 27 grams the inside. I could not make them using the C grain contest balsa as I could not find straight material of this kind in Toronto (!). All C grain contest balsa planks I saw were slightly bent or twisted, I bought some and after half a year in my basement, that is warm and dry, they all curved and twisted more. This means that either they were not true C grain or they were not properly dried before cutting or both. By the way: Paul Walker uses 1/4" C grain but it is probably true C grain contest, dry as dust, balsa.

I have decided to increase the number of hinges to five of six per flap what will support better the flaps LE but how to limit the twist?
The Doculam covering will stiffen the flaps torsionally but it may be not enough. Perhaps I should add the graphite laminate beam (3 x 0.8 mm. ) along the TE and then cover with Doculam?

Perhaps I should order more C grain contest balsa from one of the US warehouses hoping that they deliver true C grain and re-make the flaps? Perhaps I should make them using 5/16" instead 1/4"?

More questions than answers....
 
Thanks,
M









 

Offline Lauri Malila

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Re: MP Max Bee
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2018, 07:09:06 AM »
Matt,

Why donít you just cover the flaps with glassfiber, about 40..50g/m^2, with +/-45 fiber orientation?
As you are not hoing to make them tapered towards t.e, itís easy to make them dead straight by compressing the laminate between glass plates or with vacuum.
Instead of glass cloth, there are also really nice thin ud carbons available, both pre-hardened and as cloth. But I feel that in your case glass will do fine.
Forget the Dokulam.
P

Offline Matt Piatkowski

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Re: MP Max Bee
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2018, 09:12:36 AM »
Hi Lauri,
The solutions you are suggesting are feasible for me. I am simply waiting to collect more opinions.

Lets do some math: my single flap has the surface area about 0.035 m^2 per side so the total fiberglass weight is: 2x0.035x45 g/m^2=3.15 grams.
This assumes average 45 grams/m^2 fiberglass that is not available in my local hobby stores.

I have to find it somewhere, order it and wait for shipment. Say, I will find it in the US, they will ship tomorrow and the material will arrive in about two weeks. No problem - I can wait two weeks.

I have, however, a very thin carbon veil but it is non-directional. It is so light that I could not even weight the piece of it having 1.0 m. x 0.5m. dimensions using my electronic scale that reacts to more than 1 gram.

Do you know how much weight will be added if I dilute the 30 minutes epoxy with Acetone using the mixture of 1 part of epoxy for 3 parts of acetone and use this watery thin "glue" to attach the fiberglass or carbon veil.

The acetone will evaporate but what will be the net weight gain because of epoxy added on 0.070 m^2 of one flap?

Are we talking 5 grams/flap or 15 or more?

Thanks,
M


Offline Lauri Malila

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Re: MP Max Bee
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2018, 09:36:57 AM »
Hi Matt,

Also, I recommend to forget the carbon veil. It really adds nothing to torsional stiffness.
Lightweight glass cloth should be easy to find. I donít recommend using the very lightest as they just tend to be more coarse weave.

Offline Lauri Malila

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Re: MP Max Bee
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2018, 09:44:20 AM »
Also, I donít recommend thinning the epoxy. Instead, give the balsa a light coat or 2 of dope and light sanding, before glass & epoxy. That way the balsa will absorb less.


Offline Matt Piatkowski

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Re: MP Max Bee
« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2018, 11:45:35 AM »
Hi again Lauri,
Thanks for the tips.

Will you compete somewhere in the EU this coming spring and summer?
I will be in Hradec Kralove, Zarnovica and two main F2B events in Poland.
Regards,
M

Offline Lauri Malila

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Re: MP Max Bee
« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2018, 01:37:28 PM »
Happy to help Matt.

At least in World Champs. Other than that, I prefer free flight contests. L

Offline Will Moore

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Re: MP Max Bee
« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2018, 06:30:57 PM »
Does anyone know where plans can be had for the Max Bee.? Igorís website lists it, but I think he told me via email that The plans  are out of stock right now. Is there another source ?
Things take longer to happen than you think they will,

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Offline pmackenzie

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Re: MP Max Bee
« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2018, 08:48:00 PM »
Hi Matt,

    If you want to find light glass locally ( Toronto) try Composites Canada. They are just west of the airport, so close to you.

     https://shop.compositescanada.com/#/catalogue/category/fabrics/Fiberglass?page=1

Also should be able to get proper laminating epoxy there.  West system is not bad: 105 resin, 205(fast) or 206(slow) hardener.

Pat MacKenzie
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Offline TDM

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Re: MP Max Bee
« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2018, 09:52:20 AM »
There is a technique in how to apply a thin layer of epoxy to anything.

You use a small 2in foam roller put a small amount of epoxy (thin epoxy laminating stuff) in a paper plate and just like you paint with it wet the roller. you cant test if roller is too wet by trying on a piece of paper. If you have a hard time weting the paper you are good to go. Long story short is, if the roller is dryish the epoxy will not soak through and the part will be light.
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Offline Matt Piatkowski

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Re: MP Max Bee
« Reply #30 on: February 22, 2018, 01:51:34 PM »
TDM, Pat,
Thanks for more tips and tricks.
Happy Flying,
M

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: MP Max Bee
« Reply #31 on: February 22, 2018, 03:11:24 PM »
Where will you be flying in Poland?
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Offline Matt Piatkowski

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Re: MP Max Bee
« Reply #32 on: February 23, 2018, 05:18:20 AM »
Hi Howard,
I will be training close to Zyrardow ( about 40 miles SW from Warsaw) and will compete in Wloclawek (Polish F2B Championship) and Wierzawice (F2B WC).
Regards,
M

Offline Vincent Judd

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Re: MP Max Bee
« Reply #33 on: February 23, 2018, 06:58:01 PM »
Does anyone know where plans can be had for the Max Bee.? Igorís website lists it, but I think he told me via email that The plans  are out of stock right now. Is there another source ?

Will, the Max Bee plans are available from PAMPA.

Vince

Offline Matt Piatkowski

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Re: MP Max Bee
« Reply #34 on: February 24, 2018, 01:40:16 PM »
More on MP Max Bee:
See the attachment please. Shaped horizontal stabilizer foam core before sheeting, shaped elevator with 1/32" ply caps, 4 Du-Bro hinges and 2 x 10" x 3mm x 0.8 mm carbon composite partial spars glued with epoxy to the hor. stab balsa spar: total 59 grams (2.08 oz. ).

Carbon composite spars were added to the hor. stab. because of "Fear Factor". The shaped elevator is so thin that it is the hor. stab. that must support it.
The sheeting of the hor. stab. with 1/16" balsa will stiffen it up but the entire hor. tail area is so large...

Flaps: I have sliced one of my bent 1/4" contest balsa pieces longitudinally. Then, I have flipped one piece and glued BOTH on one end. Then, I put the pieces, one curving UP and the other DOWN on the flat surface and weighted them down. Then, I have glued the pieces longitudinally using 1.5 grams of CA. The resulting 1/4" plank was flat yesterday and is flat today. Then, I cut the inside flap. 18 grams is not bad, I suppose, but 1/4" is too thin to provide the secure mount for the 1/8" steel wire of the flaps horn without some form of reinforcement like in my previous flaps.

This reinforcement weighted 5 grams with the AL 40 mm. tube, two ply forks and epoxy.

18+5=23 grams and the old inside flap ready to cover weights 25 grams. Hmm...

Greets from MP Stunt Academy,

M

 



 


Offline Matt Piatkowski

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Re: MP Max Bee
« Reply #35 on: March 02, 2018, 01:25:59 PM »
I have found another slightly bent 1/4" thick contest balsa piece that was very light (below 5 lbs./ft.^3), made it flat and straight using the method of "longitudinal slicing" and cut the new set of flaps for MP Max Bee. Please see https://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/flaps-design for details.

The horizontal stabilizer has been skinned with 1/16" balsa after removing some more foam: weight as shown in the attachment: 54 grams.
I have used the "lines of CA" method to save some weight. Medium density foam safe CA was used to glue balsa and foam.

The elevator as shown weights 30 grams. The elevator's horn weights as shown 11 grams but will shed 4 grams after bending and cutting the wire.

The stabilizer and the elevator still need precise sanding.

Next step: flaps hinges slots and flaps LE sanding.

Matt










Offline Matt Piatkowski

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Re: MP Max Bee
« Reply #36 on: March 15, 2018, 02:49:26 PM »
Wing on March 15, 2018 before final sheeting weights 298 grams (10.5 oz.)
Carbon tape has been spot attached with thin CA to both spars. After sheeting, more CA will be added along spars to completely saturate the connection.

Please see https://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/glue-for-carbon-tape/ for more data.

Spring Greetings from MP Stunt Academy in Toronto,
M

 

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: MP Max Bee
« Reply #37 on: March 15, 2018, 04:29:05 PM »
... and will compete in Wloclawek (Polish F2B Championship)...

Check out Tapas on the town square. Best potatoes anywhere.
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Offline Matt Piatkowski

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Re: MP Max Bee
« Reply #38 on: March 17, 2018, 09:11:23 AM »
Hi Howard,
Traditional Polish cuisine is fattening and unhealthy but I love it.
I simply exercise a bit more after eating pierogis, deep fried potato patties with sour cream, bigos and golonka with beer and I am ok.
Cheers,
M

Offline Matt Piatkowski

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Re: MP Max Bee
« Reply #39 on: March 19, 2018, 04:24:28 PM »
More about MP Max Bee II wing:

I have started sheeting it with 1/16",  6.75 Lbs./ft ^3 balsa and noticed the local collapse of this sheeting between existing ribs spaced 2.75".
After one side of the wing was sheeted, I have added the three half ribs per side to support this sheeting. Please see the attached.

The added half ribs pushed the already glued sheeting outside and the geometry of the sheeting is close to ideal.

Total six half ribs glued with CA = 4 grams. I feel it is acceptable, having in mind much better smoothness of the sheeting curvature.

Happy Easter Holidays!

MP Stunt Academy Toronto


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