News:



  • June 01, 2024, 10:29:19 AM

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: Motor Stoppage  (Read 2971 times)

Offline WhittleN

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 308
Motor Stoppage
« on: April 11, 2012, 08:55:06 AM »
Guys

In an attempt to gauge the magnitude of occurrences for unexplained motor stoppages please post you number of stoppages and your best guess on why this happened.
I will start with 3 stoppages.  
All stoppages have occurred after a high stress (high current demand) maneuver, two wing overs and one square loop.  After the first two I thought I had a bad switch, as the switch was reused in both timers.  I am now thinking that all three incidences the timer reset, as if the ESC’s (Castle) BEC voltage dropped below the timer input voltage.  In all three stoppages the motor cleanly cut and the brake activated.  Another thing that leads me to come around to this point of thinking is Frank Williams recent stoppage it clearly shows the timer output going to shut-down.

Norm Whittle
Equipment added per Howard's request:

First incidence - AXi 2826/12, CC ICE Lite 50, Hubin FM-9 timer, ThunderPower 5S2650 batteries.

Second incidence - Scorpion SII 3026-710,CC Phoenix 60, Hubin FM-9 timer, ThunderPower 5S2700 batteries

Third incidence - Plettenberg 20-16, CC ICE Lite 100, Hubin FM-9 timer, ThunderPower 5S2700 batteries


« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 07:38:08 AM by WhittleN »

Offline frank williams

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 835
Re: Motor Stoppage
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2012, 10:16:46 AM »
As Norm noted, I've had one that was a clear shutoff. 
It was a hard pullup into a wingover while testing a larger than normal prop.  The log did show that the throttle command was the first to go down. 

My other problems have been burning up ESC's where I don't get a sudden shutoff but a BURRUPPURRUP.

Offline schuang

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Ensign
  • **
  • Posts: 43
Re: Motor Stoppage
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2012, 12:02:42 PM »
FYI—

For the past 8 months, I've encountered 4 motor stoppages/problems but they are all explainable.

Encounter #1: motor stopped due to the default ESC cutoff voltage setting.  Fixed it by lowering the cutoff voltage.

Encounter #2: motor go out of the governor mode due to the battery voltage sagging.  Governor mode can only work on certain % of the throttle range.  The other words, when battery is sagging during the hard maneuver or toward the end of the flight, ESC can run out of the throttle range.  Fixed by adjusting the gear ratio.

Encounter #3: motor stopped due to messing around with the timer.  Fixed it by “dry run” on the ground every time when setup has been changed.

Encounter #4: won’t run governor mode due to a faulty ESC.



Regards,

Sean

Offline Wynn Robins

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1684
Re: Motor Stoppage
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2012, 02:40:07 PM »
I have had 2 -

one - factory solder joint on battery pack let go - cutting all power

two - solder joint on timer BEC wire let go - stopping input to ESC

Neither caused any damage or loss - which was fortunate

In the battle of airplane versus ground, the ground is yet to lose

Offline Howard Rush

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 7818
Re: Motor Stoppage
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2012, 04:29:50 PM »
Folks, it would help if you list the specific equipment involved: brands, sizes, versions.  Thanks.
The Jive Combat Team
Making combat and stunt great again

Offline Ron Hook

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Ensign
  • **
  • Posts: 41
Re: Motor Stoppage
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2012, 05:11:15 PM »
I have had 1 occasion when motor stopped at the top of an inside loop. Landed safely.  Flew next day after examining all equipment with flat flight, everything OK. Landed and changed batteries. Pushed start button and prop wiggled back and forth 3 or 4 times and that was all. Took equipment home and checked logging data with Norm Whittle's help and the conclusion at this point in time was an over heated ESC. Working on redesigning front end to get more air flow over ESC. Hope to fly next week.

Equipment: AXi 2826/10, CC ICE Lite 50, Hubin 9 timer, Flight Power 14.2V batteries.
Ron Hook
Goodyear, AZ

Offline Andrew Borgogna

  • Andy
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1188
Re: Motor Stoppage
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2012, 09:07:52 AM »
I have had three.
1.  Hacker AX 30 10XL, KR timer, ZTW ESC, Turnigy 3300mha battery.  The battery went bad half way through the flight.  It overheated and lost voltage, the timer detected the low voltage and shut down the motor.  The battery was very warm but not puffy.  After several minutes the temperature did not drop so I  discarted it.  For what it's worth this was the most expensive battery I ever bought ($99) and it lasted the least amount of time.

2.  Hobby People motor, KR timer, Hobby King ESC, Hobby People 2200mha battery.  The On/Off switch on the timer came off during outside loops, this tells the timer to shut down.  This problem only happened on the short plug on switch, I have never had any problem with the longer remote switch.   KR has now beefed up the connection to the short plug on switch and no further problems.

3.  Aerrowind motor, CC ESC, KR timer, Hobby People 1200mha battery.  Grabbed a previously used battery, after a couple of laps the timer detected low voltage and shut down the system.  This problem was resolved by buying a Hyperion EOS Sentry battery tester and checking the battery before and after every flight.
Andrew B. Borgogna

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12823
Re: Motor Stoppage
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2012, 09:31:52 AM »
As Norm noted, I've had one that was a clear shutoff. 
It was a hard pullup into a wingover while testing a larger than normal prop.  The log did show that the throttle command was the first to go down.

When the ESC (not the timer) shuts the thing down for low battery, does it report the low battery event in its log, or does it just report the throttle command going to zero?

Part of my living is writing software for embedded devices like this, I could easily see an unusual event like a low-battery shutdown being mislogged if the software team was inattentive or didn't place high value on the logging feature.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12823
Re: Motor Stoppage
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2012, 09:37:37 AM »
the timer detected the low voltage and shut down the motor.

How?  The timer gets regulated power from the ESC/BEC, and a Hubin timer at least doesn't monitor battery voltage at all -- was it a KR timer?  Does Kieth's timer monitor battery voltage?  Why would Kieth shut power off from the timer, when in a CL application it's much better to decrease power or "burp" the motor as a warning, then let you destroy the battery pack to save the airplane?

The ESC does monitor battery voltage, and if it's in 'RC airplane' mode then a sagging battery will make the ESC shut the motor off.  Most ESCs will reset if you go to idle and back to full power, which generally gives you just enough battery to land (and isn't good on your battery pack) -- obviously this won't happen in a system with a timer, unless Kieth's system is too clever for its own good and does the full-idle-full cycle when it sees the RPM drop.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Andrew Borgogna

  • Andy
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1188
Re: Motor Stoppage
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2012, 12:33:20 PM »
Tim
The KR timer has a feedback wire attached to any one of the three power wires to the motor from the ESC.  It monitors the back EMF from the motor and from that it can determine RPM and battery voltage.  The KR timer uses this information to regulate the RPM (governor), check for stalled motor, and monitor battery voltage.  As far as I know it is the only timer that does this.
Andy
Andrew B. Borgogna

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12823
Re: Motor Stoppage
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2012, 12:45:37 PM »
Thanks Andrew.  I can see how all that information is available in that wire -- it's interesting that Kieth chooses to shut things down completely instead of giving you enough clear warning to get onto the ground (or at least level flight) safely.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline WhittleN

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 308
Re: Motor Stoppage
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2012, 01:18:54 PM »
Tim
The timer can shut the ESC down if the timer looses power.  I suspect that happened on all three of mine.  I know it’s a matter of semantics does the timer or the ESC shut the motor down.  Bottom line is the motor stops.  All three of my batteries were at 19+ VDC during my shut-down but I’m not too sure that the BEC voltage was above 2.5VDC required to keep the timer timing.  You can clearly see Frank’s voltage is above 19VDC in the shutdown.

Norm

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12823
Re: Motor Stoppage
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2012, 01:45:38 PM »
Tim
The timer can shut the ESC down if the timer looses power.  I suspect that happened on all three of mine.  I know it’s a matter of semantics does the timer or the ESC shut the motor down.  Bottom line is the motor stops.  All three of my batteries were at 19+ VDC during my shut-down but I’m not too sure that the BEC voltage was above 2.5VDC required to keep the timer timing.  You can clearly see Frank’s voltage is above 19VDC in the shutdown.

Well, it's not just a matter of semantics if you're pondering which part is faulty and needs modification or replacement.  Certainly the motor stops in either case and you've got an upset pilot and possibly a crashed plane.

I'm having a hard time believing that a competent circuit designer would make a BEC that couldn't maintain a dead steady 5V even after the battery input dropped well below 19V -- if this happened regularly, the RC guys would howl, and Things Would Be Changed.  I wouldn't be surprised at any fault from a cheap Chinese controller, but I'd be pretty darn startled at one from a Castle Creations rig.

I'm wondering if there isn't some circumstance -- whether it's glitches on the 5V line that a regular RC receiver isn't sensitive to but the Hubin timer is, or loose connections to the timer power line, or what -- that induce the timer to drop the speed command back to an idle. 

I learned recently in a conversation that the Hubin timer doesn't have a bypass capacitor on the processor -- this is something that any experienced circuit designer will quail at, because chips without bypass caps just do weird things sometimes.  There should be a 100nF cap connected between the processor power pins and as close as can be reasonably mounted on the board, and given that the thing is flapping in the breeze on the end of a 6 inch wire there should probably be a 1uF to 10uF board-level bypass cap to boot.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline WhittleN

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 308
Re: Motor Stoppage
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2012, 02:12:06 PM »
Tim
The RC guys wouldn't howl - they would only see it as a glitch some would never notice - whereas our timers reset and shut the motor off.  You may want to talk to some of the RC Electric pattern guys about BEC’s.

I'm not blaming Will's timers; he has been most cooperative in instituting upgrades to his timers.   I have been in conversation with him to increase the input capacitor to 100mF (his calculation) vs. the .1mF presently.

Norm

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12823
Re: Motor Stoppage
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2012, 03:03:21 PM »
Tim
The RC guys wouldn't howl - they would only see it as a glitch some would never notice - whereas our timers reset and shut the motor off.  You may want to talk to some of the RC Electric pattern guys about BEC’s.

I'm not blaming Will's timers; he has been most cooperative in instituting upgrades to his timers.   I have been in conversation with him to increase the input capacitor to 100mF (his calculation) vs. the .1mF presently.


The story I heard was that there was no bypass cap at all: Thanks for the correction.  The current 100nF cap should be sufficient; if you put on a bigger cap without a pass diode, then if the BEC did glitch it'd just empty out the cap on the timer and the lights would go out anyway.

If this were happening in the RC world the 3D RC guys would have airplanes dropping out of the sky; they would care deeply and make noises of a volume commensurate with their depth of feeling.  If your motor cuts out when you're hovering ten or twenty feet off the ground, there's just about enough time for the plane to flip nose-down and impact the dirt (or pavement, if you're unlucky), but not enough time to realize what's happening, pull the stick to idle, push it back to full throttle, and fly out of whatever tight spot you're in.  I fly RC, too, and fly most of my CL flights at my RC club's field -- we almost never see "motor out" incidents with electrics, while they are not uncommon with glow power.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline WhittleN

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 308
Re: Motor Stoppage
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2012, 05:04:03 PM »
Tim
You are missing my point the RC motor will not stop if you have a low BEC voltage spike or glitch.  In C/L it will.  I believe Will is testing at what voltage level and duration of the low voltage the timer will reset itself.

This thread is about experiences folks have had with motor stoppages. So let's get back to it.  I know I'm the one who drifted.
Norm

Offline Howard Rush

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 7818
Re: Motor Stoppage
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2012, 07:28:14 PM »
This thread is about experiences folks have had with motor stoppages.

Tim may have determined why.  

Hey, Tim, if one adds a 1uF to 10uF condenser to the board, should one also have a resistor upstream to increase the time constant?

Sorry, I should have started a new thread.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 07:55:16 PM by Howard Rush »
The Jive Combat Team
Making combat and stunt great again

Offline schuang

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Ensign
  • **
  • Posts: 43
Re: Motor Stoppage
« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2012, 08:46:52 PM »
Tim may have determined why.  

Hey, Tim, if one adds a 1uF to 10uF condenser to the board, should one also have a resistor upstream to increase the time constant?

Sorry, I should have started a new thread.


Howard,

Normally power supply filtering cannot be done this way.  Voltage drop across the resister (due to the current spikes) will make the voltage ripple worse.  Low ESR cap(s) with thick power supply copper trace is the way to go for the power supply decoupling.

Regards,

Sean

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12823
Re: Motor Stoppage
« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2012, 10:48:45 PM »
Tim may have determined why.  

Hey, Tim, if one adds a 1uF to 10uF condenser to the board, should one also have a resistor upstream to increase the time constant?

Sorry, I should have started a new thread.

That depends.  Usually the answer is:

Normally power supply filtering cannot be done this way.  Voltage drop across the resister (due to the current spikes) will make the voltage ripple worse.  Low ESR cap(s) with thick power supply copper trace is the way to go for the power supply decoupling.

But sometimes (as, for instance, when you're powering some sensitive analog circuit, but nearly almost never when you're powering digital) you'd use a resistor to decouple the power supply.  Doing it in this case would be odd, for sure.

I think that a series diode and a cap would solve the problem, if the problem really is that the BEC is dropping out.  But I'd be kinda surprised if that was the case.  At it's simplest, a BEC is a 78x05 regulator chip, and those things just don't drop out.  Even if the BEC were a little switching regulator, there's still little reason for it to drop out unless the main battery power to the ESC were cutting in and out -- and if that were happening, I'd expect the ESC processor to reset, too.

Dang -- I wish I had an ICE xxx in my hands so I could dissect it and figure out what the BEC schematic was.  Much that is murky would become clear.

We really should get off this thread.  Maybe the next time someone starts a thread like this they should title it "Motor Stoppage Cases", and they should immediately start another one called "Motor Stoppage Theories", to suck all the brainstorming away from the hard data.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Keith Renecle

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 893
Re: Motor Stoppage
« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2012, 10:50:41 PM »
Thanks Andrew.  I can see how all that information is available in that wire -- it's interesting that Kieth chooses to shut things down completely instead of giving you enough clear warning to get onto the ground (or at least level flight) safely.
Tim, I actually use a low rpm trigger point to shut down the motor when the prop gets snagged. I burnt out my last Jeti Spin when the prop got snagged in some slightly long grass on take-off. My system was originally targeted at newcomers to e-power or beginners to C/L, so this was the priority. The second benefit was shutting down if the rpm dropped due to a low battery in case the esc's low voltage thing did not work. I have tried making this trigger a lower rpm first and then shutting down but then I lose the quick shut down when the prop snags. I feel that the prop snag thing is more important. It would be nice to have both…..if I could figure it out. Kinda like having your cake….. etc. Of course, my system and the esc's low battery detection will always choose that hard corner into a vertical climb to shut down. It's not Murphy's Law (for once!), it's because this sudden load on a dying battery is enough to pull the voltage down to the trigger point.

Just by the way, I don’t actually measure the voltage. I could do that but then it would be one more wire to confuse the customers a little more and the esc already does this reasonably well. I do use the 0.1uF cap across the chip's power lines on my boards. These processor chips can do some funny things without any logical explanation. I remember practicing at the 2008 world champs in France. After a couple of minutes the timer shut the motor down on one of Igor's basic timers. I was about to put the handle down and check the plane when it started up and flew again. Every 30 seconds or so it did the same thing and flew until the battery died after 9 minutes. I reset it and it did not do this again. The low rpm that it kept going to had nothing to do with any of the settings in the timer, so what sort of loop was it getting stuck in?? Maybe they do have some sort of artificial intelligence after all.

Keith R



Keith R

Offline Igor Burger

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 2166
Re: Motor Stoppage
« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2012, 01:35:50 AM »
I think it was that old timer with programming by main switch ... you probably got it to programming mode :-))))) ... something similar happened to Jiri and he did whole flight in programming mode ... and so he had the only overrun with electric power in official flight I have ever seen :-))))) ... this can happen only to Jiri ... in any case it was reason why I stopped to make them :-)))))

but I do not think that those pics does what they want, I did not have any problems with them yet, did you get any malfunction iny our applications? .. they always did what I programmed or nothig (if they were dead) ... I do not say that I always programmed it well, but in any case, they did what I wrote them to do  ;D

Offline Keith Renecle

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 893
Re: Motor Stoppage
« Reply #21 on: April 13, 2012, 06:42:21 AM »
You could be right Igor, but it was strange. Here's another one that most could benefit from with shut-downs or funnies that happen. I'm trying to write some code to read the low count rpm pulses from the Plettenberg motors, and every now and then the motor goes flat out or does something else that I did not ask it to (don’t think so!!). I can reset it with the slide switch, but it did not make sense. It was so irregular as well. Yesterday I sat with it on my scope and switched it on and off a lot. Suddenly it went flat out again and I saw that the throttle pulse width was it it's maximum of 2.0 ms. I reset it and it would not give any problems again. This morning I managed to get it go wrong by bumping the boards so I thought "Ha.......bad solder joint on the pc board".....it wasn't! The new version of my timer is made completely by machine except for the connectors and LED. The only section of my code that now has full power in it, is the startup sequence if you switch the slide switch on and then connect the battery. This is to calibrate the esc throttle range without need an R/C system. I wrote a bit of code to light up the LED when it’s in this loop. When the thing glitched and ran flat out, then the LED did indeed light up, so this is the section that it was going back to.

I tried a few more boards and occasionally the same thing would occur so I changed the esc to another bunch that I have. All worked fine so I realized that it was something to do with the esc. Eventually I found that the 3-pin connector on the cheap esc no-name esc was the problem. I pulled the connector socket pins out and the earth pin (black wire) was really loose. So the bad connection in the plug was causing the power to glitch and that short interval managed to get my program into a section of the code that made it go flat out or do the other funny things occasionally. This is a very unusual set of conditions but it shows that “funnies” can happen and you need to be careful. I can put some code in this loop to stop this, but it should not really happen. It reminds me of the “funnies’ with engines when the silencer pressure tube or fuel pipe comes off in flight. They should not happen either, so nothing is perfect!

Keith R
Keith R

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12823
Re: Motor Stoppage
« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2012, 09:07:48 AM »
Eventually I found that the 3-pin connector on the cheap esc no-name esc was the problem. I pulled the connector socket pins out and the earth pin (black wire) was really loose. So the bad connection in the plug was causing the power to glitch and that short interval managed to get my program into a section of the code that made it go flat out or do the other funny things occasionally.
I'm not sure whose processor you're using, but the reset circuit should be catching that event and resetting the processor entirely.

This is a case that (with most processors) would be significantly alleviated by having a board-level 10uF or 100uF cap -- either the power supply would get held up well enough by the bigger cap that the loss wouldn't affect the microprocessor, or the whole event would be slowed down enough that the reset circuit would do it's job correctly.  Of course, this would still leave you in the air with a reset processor, but at least the plane would only be doing semi-odd things.

Close study of the data sheet, and inquiries among folks who have experience with that processor, are generally necessary to figure out just how well you can expect it's built-in reset circuit to perform under what circumstances.

On the airplane-owner side: one should probably always check one's ESC-to-timer connector carefully.  Even a name brand controller can have problems with age, rough usage, or plain bad luck.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Keith Renecle

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 893
Re: Motor Stoppage
« Reply #23 on: April 13, 2012, 11:24:20 AM »
Thanks Tim, I appreciate the advice. I'm using PIC chips but I'm still learning all the tricks to prevent things. There is always a trade-off because you can't really cater for everything that could go wrong.  The pc board is as small as possible and there's no more space for electrolytic caps, but I take the point. So far the system has been pretty bullet proof and works with most of the better low cost esc's but I would recommend staying away from the real "El-Cheapo's" out there.

For the governor to work well the esc must provide a smooth throttle response with a fine resolution. One of the better low cost esc's is the ZTW. The Hobbywing's are also o.k. Many of the Turnigy esc's are made by Hobbywing. I also recomend getting the programming card or box if available, especially to set the low voltage trigger point. It's also nice to set the brake function to ON as well as this makes landing a lot easier. In FAI this is essential.

Keith R
Keith R

Offline Tom Strom

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 68
Re: Motor Stoppage
« Reply #24 on: April 13, 2012, 10:15:47 PM »
Tim, where do you live?  I have one I can send you to look at, should you want to.  You can PM me if you wish. 

Tom

Offline Will Hubin

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 151
Re: Motor Stoppage
« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2012, 09:33:16 AM »
There are at last three easy ways to kill a timer: The 5V and ground pins can be switched if the connection to the ESC is offset by one pin; if using the FM-9 system, by connecting the programmer incorrectly; and through static electricity. In addition, there may well be some cases of natural deaths (aka “infant mortality”). Until the advent of the Castle Creations’ ICE ESC and its use of a switching power supply (replacing the Phoenix’s linear regulator) for the BEC’s five volts (which you can program to more than 5 volts as another timer killer). But the important fact is that these acts all render the timer unable to even initialize an ESC, let alone turn it on. Unfortunately, a dead timer tells no tales, so autopsies are of little or no value.

The coming of the ICE seemed to change that; a number of failures appeared, relatively close together. At first, suspicion fell on the possibility of voltage spikes on the BEC’s 5-volt supply to the timer. In response, I added two passive components to the FM-9 timer. Then I received a couple of timers that weren’t quite dead (although they still didn’t initialize or run the motor); they had a damaged output driver on the pin that supplies the throttle signal to the ESC. The embedded program was still running the program properly but the output voltage was too low to be recognized by the ESC as a legitimate logic signal. In response, I added two more passive components to the FM-9 timer, as well as making firmware changes. These changes appeared to make the timer more robust, although most flyers (who don’t fly anywhere as much as Norm!) have had none of these problems.

But now Norm and others feel that we have a much more serious problem, one in which the ESC causes the timer to reset (to motor off) during a high-g maneuver, presumably because of a momentary drop-out of the BEC voltage. Apparently, this doesn’t damage the timer or the ESC but it can and has been disastrous for the health of the model! Ironically, there have been suggestions that the data recording that the ICE provides, thereby storing clues to problems, also makes it more likely to produce anomalies on its BEC output…

(I have speculated that a connection problem between the timer and the ESC could be involved, too. The male pins on the timer are gold coated and should be long-lived, but the ESC provides spring-loaded female contacts that may be subject to wear.)

If the BEC from the ICE is the source of the problem, obtaining the 5-volts directly from the battery with our own linear regulator on the timer board should solve it. The FM-9R, FM-9VR, and FM-9Rretract timers already do this; they were developed for the Schulze F2B ESC (no BEC) and the Phoenix (with 4S or 5S LiPo batteries). A linear regulator like the 7805 provides a very stable 5-volts but it is inefficient when working with a high voltage because it dissipates power equal to the voltage drop times the current. The FM-9 requires only about 0.7 mA, so this means that the power dissipated in the 7805, even with a 5S battery, is only (0.7 mA) x [(5 x 3.7V) – 5.0 V] = 9.45 mW, which the 7805 can easily do, even without heat-sinking. However, we did find that it couldn’t provide more than the current for one wheel retraction without overheating and shutting down when Paul Walker tried using it; switching to CC’s external BEC solved that problem.

Note that when using a timer with its own BEC generator on board along with an ESC that provides a BEC, it is vitally important to disable the ESC’s BEC so that there is no fighting over any small voltage difference, with one trying to charge the other. As CC advises, this disabling is accomplished by temporarily cutting the middle (+5V) wire in the 3-wire cable between the ESC and the timer; this disabling must be temporary, as Norm reminds me, because you will probably want to be able to re-program the ESC if you are using a Phoenix or an ICE ESC. Also, the on-board regulator has to have its own connection to the ESC’s battery leads; this can be accomplished by opening up a gap in the leads and soldering in the connections or by using E-Power’s E-Tap (which I also can provide).

I’ve just made some relevant measurements on and with my timers. For one thing, I measured the supply current with a 5-volt supply: 0.5 to 0.7 mA, meaning a maximum power dissipation of 3.5 mW (0.0035 W). Compare this with the 5A and 25W capability of the ICE’s BEC! I’ve also found that this FM-9 timer would continue to generate a pulse over its entire rated supply voltage range of 2.0 to 5.5 volts, as well as even lower. But the pulse width did increase from the proper 1.004 ms (throttle-off) at 2.5 volts to 1.046 ma at 2.0 volts, and 1.64 ms at 1.75 volts.

Then I connected this timer to a Turnigy Super Brain ESC-60A ESC that was powering an E-Flite Power 25 motor. To my surprise, the motor continued to run at flight power down to a supply voltage of 2.0 volts! Below that voltage the ESC and motor made painful noises and I terminated the experiment. Next, I substituted a CC ICE Lite 50 ESC for the Turnigy – and found the same, unexpected result. This suggests that, if a BEC dropout is responsible, the voltage must be dropping, quickly, below about 2.5 volts, at least momentarily. But surely the battery voltage can’t be dropping below the 8 volts or so needed by the 7805 and so an on-board 7805 should provide a steady voltage to the timer.

Another possible solution to a BEC problem is to add a large (memory back-up) capacitor on the timer board. I am designing a new circuit board to test this idea. A third approach, also suggested by hard-working Norm, is to use a separate coin-type battery on the timer board, but this is the hardest to implement.


Offline Tim Wescott

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12823
Re: Motor Stoppage
« Reply #26 on: April 16, 2012, 10:39:09 AM »
I'm going to invoke my 20 years of professional circuit design experience again, to say that Will is doing all the right stuff to track down the problem.

The only other thing that I can add to this is that you might want to look at your BEC output voltage with an oscilloscope, if you have one.  Small inexpensive switching supplies don't like to be run with less than some critical load (which load varies depending on the details).  Good small inexpensive switching supply chips deal with this fact gracefully.  But with not-so-good ones, when you run one at very low current, the supply voltage averages out to the right value, but it can tend to do so by "hiccuping".  Meters wouldn't tell the tale here -- a decent O-scope will.

If the designers of the supply anticipated needing to have correct operation down to 0.5mA then they will have made sure to use a switching regulator chip that deals with low currents gracefully -- but this is a tiny detail to a busy circuit designer, and is the kind of thing that can be overlooked, particularly if you have a "big planes, big current" mindset.

If -- and only if -- this turns out to be happening, the cure is as simple as putting a load resistor in parallel with the timer, sized by experiment to calm down the supply voltage variation.  (and -- if and only if it's happening -- a comment to Castle would be nice, too).
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Darkstar1

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 326
Re: Motor Stoppage
« Reply #27 on: April 16, 2012, 10:56:25 AM »
An idea about disabling the 5v wire, Instead just remove the female wire from the connector and just tape off to the side. When the wire is needed later just slip it back in place. I hate cutting anything if I don't have to.
Later,
Evolve or get left behind!

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12823
Re: Motor Stoppage
« Reply #28 on: April 16, 2012, 11:09:59 AM »
An idea about disabling the 5v wire, Instead just remove the female wire from the connector and just tape off to the side. When the wire is needed later just slip it back in place. I hate cutting anything if I don't have to.
If you're careful with the connector, and if the termination is crimped correctly, you can do that over and over without messing up the housing.

And, if you do mess up the housing you can get more from Maxx Products and others.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Paul Walker

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1629
Re: Motor Stoppage
« Reply #29 on: April 16, 2012, 05:59:11 PM »
I have had a few shutdowns:
1) I used a previously discharged battery and had to wait for the low voltage cutoff on the ESC to turn it off.
2) I failed to strap down a battery well enough and it fell out in the .
middle of a square eight.
3) I had a shutdown unexpectedly near the hourglass. I traced it to an overheat of the ESC.  That was with a Plettenberg 25-12 and Shultze F2B with a TP 5S 2P2600
4) Another unexpected shutoff at the bottom of an inside square. Problem was I didn't fully engage the safety plug fully and the high "g" corner dislodged it (to the ground).

I have had zero stoppages due to any timer malfunctions in flight.


Offline Howard Rush

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 7818
Re: Motor Stoppage
« Reply #30 on: April 16, 2012, 06:56:52 PM »
I failed to strap down a battery well enough and it fell out in the .
middle of a square eight.

With a disappointing lack of fire and smoke.
The Jive Combat Team
Making combat and stunt great again

Offline Paul Walker

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1629
Re: Motor Stoppage
« Reply #31 on: April 19, 2012, 05:24:07 PM »
A few days after filling in the data above
I had an interesting experience. I was trying to
download the data from a Castle ESC. However,
it failed to connect to the computer. I had done
this many times before, but this time the link would not
connect to the ESC. I tried to disconnect and reconnect
but no luck. Finally, I sprayed the
connection pins with
 contact cleaner, and everything worked perfectly.

I regularly spray all the contacts in the system
 with this cleaner, but had failed to do any this year so far.

This got me to thinking. Is it possible that the in flight shutdowns
that have occurred been caused by a bad connection?

Offline WhittleN

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 308
Re: Motor Stoppage
« Reply #32 on: April 20, 2012, 01:06:35 PM »
Good point Paul
I will start cleaning al my connectors on a regular basis.  Maybe you cleanliness is keeping you in the air safely.
Norm

Offline Ron Hook

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Ensign
  • **
  • Posts: 41
Re: Motor Stoppage
« Reply #33 on: April 20, 2012, 05:12:30 PM »
Hello Paul,

Could you please tell us what you use for contacts cleaner?

Ron Hook
Ron Hook
Goodyear, AZ

Offline Paul Walker

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1629
Re: Motor Stoppage
« Reply #34 on: April 21, 2012, 11:17:30 AM »
I use CRC (electrical grade) QD contact Cleaner.


Are you counting the hours yet Norm???

Offline WhittleN

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 308
Re: Motor Stoppage
« Reply #35 on: April 21, 2012, 12:48:21 PM »


Three workdays and a jolly jump-up to retirement.

Norm

Offline Bill Little

  • 2017
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12671
  • Second in COMMAND
Re: Motor Stoppage
« Reply #36 on: April 21, 2012, 04:32:37 PM »

Three workdays and a jolly jump-up to retirement.

Norm

Congratulations on the retirement, Norm!  Now your work load will really become huge! LOL!!

Bill
Big Bear <><

Aberdeen, NC

James Hylton Motorsports/NASCAR/ARCA

AMA 95351 (got one of my old numbers back! ;D )

Trying to get by

Offline WhittleN

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 308
Re: Motor Stoppage
« Reply #37 on: April 22, 2012, 05:05:43 PM »
Thanks Bill
I'm sure it will take much longer to do things in retirement then when working.
Norm

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12823
Re: Motor Stoppage
« Reply #38 on: April 25, 2012, 11:27:16 AM »
The last time there was a "motor stoppage" thread, someone mentioned concern about the switch.  Has anyone seen problems that might be traced back to the switch actuating inadvertently with maneuvers and/or vibration since then?  Or has anyone had problems with switches not actuating when they or their helper push the "go" button?
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline keith varley

  • AMA Member
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 154
Re: Motor Stoppage
« Reply #39 on: April 25, 2012, 07:53:06 PM »
I had an occasion a couple of weeks ago , that when I pushed the start button , there was nothing,Then my helper had noticed, that , because I was so familiar with the process, I had rushed and pushed "go" a bit too soon , completely by accident and impatience.I tried again , carefully giving it time to finish the "beep song" and it was fine.Then again last weekend it happened again and of course I diagnosed the fault immediately , and on repeating the process it was fine. No way was it a fault of the equipment, just my impatient brain, wanting to rush.  Keith


Advertise Here
Tags:
 


Advertise Here