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Author Topic: Motor sag after take-off???  (Read 1572 times)

Online Dennis Toth

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Motor sag after take-off???
« on: July 24, 2008, 07:42:54 AM »
Guy's,

I went out this morning to do a quick test flight with the Excitation after doing a flap tweak and had an unusual experience. After release of the stooge the ship moved off and brushed the grass which slowed the motor momenterally but then it picked up and off we went. Once in the air as I did an inside loop the motor slowed then came back on the down side of the loop and remained solid for the rest of the short test flight (level flight). Since the flap tweak was still not quite there I gave them another tweak and went for a second flight. This time I flattened the grass under the stooge board so it didn't drop the ship off the end so steep. Ship took off normal but at the end of the first lap the motor slowed momentarily and the picked up I did a loop with no problem (flap tweak still off a little). After a third tweak on the flaps I took off again an again after first lap (about 5 secs into flight) the motor slowed then picked up, finally it really slowed and the ship landed with the motor just barely turning, I walked over and shut off the main power switch. Once I got home I did a quick check on the battery voltage and it measured 9.2V at the battery terminals (I though Dean once indicated we lose a volt through the ESC?).

Question - I'm not sure if I fully charged this battery after the weekend flying session so I might have been down to start with. It seems to me that it was hitting the low voltage limit (I set this at 2.8 volts which for the 3s2p A123 would be 8.4V at the ESC) if the pack was low and it did hit the low voltage limit is this the signal that the CC45 would give? Second - if I had started with a full charge could the prop strike have cause that big of a current spike that it would discharge most of the battery thus leading to the low voltage warning? Last could this have been an over current situation? I don't think this is the case since this is the same setup I used for a similar size & weight test ship and had no problems with it - any thoughts?

Best,      Dennis

Alan Hahn

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Re: Motor sag after take-off???
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2008, 08:35:58 AM »
On my CC ESC setup, when the ESC detects the LVC, it "stutters" (best word I can think of), and then slowly ramps down the throttle, trying to keep the battery voltage above LVC.

Now I am flying on "Lipo Autodetect", and you may not be due to your A123's, so it is possible that the ESC behaves differently for the other battery chemistries.

Also if you look at some battery discharges (mainly Lipo's that I have seen), you can actually see a slight dip in voltage early in the discharge cycle, and then the voltage slightly increases (and then the decrease begins again). I think it is due to the battery actually being slightly more efficient (less resistance) at a moderate temperature (the battery begins to warm up after takeoff). If your battery was low in charge to start with, and slightly cold, it is possible that it could hit LVC soon after the first takeoff and then recover slightly above LVC when the battery warmed up and you were in level flight--which isn't as big a load as takeoff. But on the next flights you are already too low (I am assuming you didn't recharge between the test flights).

Anyway it is just a guess, and probably need to always make sure the batteries are charged!

Online Dennis Toth

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Re: Motor sag after take-off???
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2008, 09:18:45 AM »
Alan,

Thanks for the input, it sounds like that's what happened I will check the CC45 setting tonight. On the last flight it slowed just as you discribed. Thanks again.

Best,   Dennis

Offline Larry Wong

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Re: Motor sag after take-off???
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2008, 04:46:17 PM »
Alan  while we are trouble shooting.
 I have been flying my ECL plane now for more than 25 times with great results, but the last two times I had trouble making a second flight, the ESC and Timer beeps like it normally does, but now it just shutters and no start. I checked all the connections and the only thing I found was one of the 3 motor leads was spinning the male part, it still had a good solder joint on wire to connector, but the end spins.  the connectors are gold tub type plugs. after all the checking, I try again and everything is cooled it works fine again ! HB~> HB~> HB~> HB~>
Larry

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Alan Hahn

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Re: Motor sag after take-off???
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2008, 07:06:31 PM »
Larry,
Some of the male gold bullet connectors do spin around so that is "normal"--these are the ones that have the expansion "springs" that make the contacts to the inside of the female connector.

Is your second flight right after the first. I'm wondering if the ESC is too warm---I sort of doubt that though. Are you using a Castle Creations Phoenix?? (I think I remember you were). Could you give us an equipment rundown?

If it is heat, then you need to get the ESC into the breeze.

Offline Larry Wong

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Re: Motor sag after take-off???
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2008, 07:46:44 PM »
Alan I thought of heat also but I had a lot of flights with the same set up.

I'm using a CC 45  in controline / high Gov. mode with a Will Hubin timer, 4000mah 14.8 V  Axi 2826/10  and the motor is in a radial cowl with CC/45 velcro inside and the bottom is open, after landing I never had a hot motor or battery.
Larry

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Alan Hahn

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Re: Motor sag after take-off???
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2008, 08:00:55 PM »
well that is a puzzle. Maybe someone else has an idea. It does sound like heat if it starts up after a short wait, but a Phoenix 45 should have plenty of capability.

Also nice looking plane!


Online Dennis Toth

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Re: Motor sag after take-off???
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2008, 09:30:49 AM »
Alan,

Looks like you were correct on the low voltage limit. I charged up last night, the 3s2p A123 pack starting voltage was down to 9.226V, it took 3850mah to charge to 10.95V. This morning I put up a test flight (I love this electric setup, I can fly in a suit, change shoes and then go to work it's great!!!!!) with the timer now set for 3mins. At the start the ship took off smooth with no sag at all. Did some climbs and divers, wingover, inside loops, inverted, horizontal eights and all was fine. It seemed like it was longer than 3mins but I was flying along and started a climb and once I nosed over the motor slowed then picked up, this continued for a while then it just went into the shut down mode and the ship landed with the motor just ticking over so I walked over and cut the power switch. Either I flew for a lot longer than I thought I had the timer set for (I did not time the flight separately, didn't think about that) or I have a weak cell. I plan to call MEC and see what they recommend.

Best,          Dennis

Alan Hahn

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Re: Motor sag after take-off???
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2008, 03:15:14 PM »
I guess I didn't catch that you were using the same battery for the second flight.

Since my battery is "just enough" for one pattern flight, I don't intentionally (at least!  n1) fly it twice. Even a short 3 minute flight would be too long to do twice (my flying time is 5min, 10 s, leaving me with 20% nominal charge left in the pack). Maybe I have flown two 2 minute flights when I was tuning things up. But I have 4 batteries and that seemed easier to support the initial efforts.

Actually now I have put two packs into storage (=charged to the 50% level and put in the fridge). I want to run the other two at max use to see how long they last under my abuse. This has been a tough summer--even though we have our club field at work (I know everyone sympathizes) the weather has been pretty crummy this summer. However this week I have been able to fly 2 flights a day over 4 days--had to mow the field on Wednesday! Usually 2 flights a day maxes me out--I get demonstrably worse on the 3rd flight and downright dangerous on the fourth. That's why I don't fly a practice flight at a contest. I hate to admit it, but my ability runs downhill (a very short hill to start with!) very fast. It is nice with electric that I don't need a "needle" flight!


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