Author Topic: motor ,controller,and battery combos (Read 4093 times)

Gordon Tarbell · « **on:** October 24, 2006, 08:40:26 PM »

Can someone list some powertrain combos that would be suitable for let say a .40 size stunter up to 620 area wing and maybe somthing that would haul a 700 inch .60+ stunter around . Approximate $ investment for said combo would be helpful also. I have seen people using the AXI 2826 motor ,is that the universal motor to start with ?

Ron King · « **Reply #1 on:** October 25, 2006, 09:09:22 AM »

Gordon,

The AXI 2826/10 with a Castle Phoenix-45 amp ESC and 14.4 volt 4200 mah Li-Po batteries has flown my profile Cardinal (579 squares) and my profile Roadrunner (610 squares) very well.

Then I built a bigger plane, 640 squares and tried the same combination but was not satisfied with the result. The plane is safely hanging on my wall until I find a better (i.e. stronger) power train.

I feel the AXI 2826/10 is a solid motor and develops the same power as a good 40 glow engine. I have not found anything yet that can replace my big RO-Jett or PA 61, 65, and/or bigger stunt engines - which is the main reason I still fly big glow engines.

Hope this helps,

Gordon Tarbell · « **Reply #2 on:** October 25, 2006, 06:17:02 PM »

That helps a ton. I will stick to 610 inches or less and be very weight conscious. Thanks. Now how about info on decifering the code that tells what the performance of the motor and what battery pack is needed . I just got a catalog (promo size) from Tower . How do I know which motor to purchase or are the ones sold there not suitable for controline? Bottom line some of us need lots of schooling on this stuff so we don't break the bank buying the wrong stuff.

Dean Pappas · « **Reply #3 on:** October 30, 2006, 11:55:30 AM »

Hi Gordon,
The answer I give you is going to be somewhat sketchy ... for a while at least.
A complete equipment selection method will take pages. It's coming!
You need 125 Watts per lb to fly the Pattern, and you really want 150 Watts per lb.
If you are looking at a 64 oz airplane, that means 550 to 600W.
Let's assume you want to use a 4-cell battery. They have a voltage, under load, of about 14.4V.
To get 600W, the average current (in the air) will need to be (600/14.4 or ) 42 Amps.
I'll round to 40 Amps. We fly for 6 minutes (1/10 hour) so this will consume 4 Amp-Hours of battey capacity.
Since you never want to run the battery below 80% of charge, this means that you need a 5 A-H battery.
There are high-rate discharge 4.6 A-H batteries that will also suffice.
Now you need to pick a motor. First, they are rated by wattage.
For purposes of weight reduction, you want to push the motor fairly close to its limits.
The AXI 2826/10 is already at its limits at 450W, so you need to look for a bigger one.
Sometimes you need to look at the data sheet and do a calculation based on the max current and the voltage figure out the rated wattage.
Then you look at the Kv and voltage and get a predicted maximum RPM. (Kv X V)
You will end up running at about 70% to 80% of that max imum possible RPM, under load.
Then you need to figure the pitch to get the needed speed (about 55 MPH or 80 feet per second).
The timer would then be set to give a control pulse width to set the governor in your Castle Phoenix 45 to the desired RPM.
Then you change RPM for lap time and prop diameter (starting small) until you consume 4 A-H.
The big thing is the governor circuit in the Phoenix. You can get constant lap times throughout the flight.
For planes around 60+ ounces, you might look at Kim Dougherty's setup, that he flew at the Worlds in Valladolid.
I don't know the details, but I hear it worked just great for that size ship.

later,
Dean

Kim Doherty · « **Reply #4 on:** October 30, 2006, 07:51:45 PM »

Gordon,

Everything Dean has told you is quite accurate and is a good basis to start making some decisions on. My one caveat is that I would not try to re-engine an existing airframe but rather take the time to build one just for this purpose.

I do indeed have a setup for a larger plane. My plane "SHOCKWAVE" weighs 70 ounces ready for take-off, (based on a 63 ounce dry weight plane with 7 ounces of fuel) has 710 square inches of wing area and is purpose built from the word go.

The actual powertrain is as follows:

Motor: Plettenburg Orbit 30-14
Battery: Thunderpower Pro Lite 5S2PB 4200
ESC: Schulze 18.46k
Timer / Processor: proprietary design and construction
Prop: 13 X 6.3

There is no lack of power with this setup. If you want to go to the moon, just turn the wick up and hold on. The plane by most reports flys very well and is quite competitive.

As to cost, this is not a setup for the faint of heart.

To go from zero to ready to practice and compete will cost you an easy $3,000 for all of the above plus all of the testing, monitoring, charging and balancing equipment.

Hope this helps!

Kim.

Gordon Tarbell · « **Reply #5 on:** October 30, 2006, 08:18:12 PM »

I think I will start with the 40 size first. I am still in the IC engine group but want to try the elec. I was looking at some of the 3D elec kits and Arf in the LHS with the Idea of converting to CL a kit that was designed for elec. Thanks again for the info.

Richard Grogan · « **Reply #6 on:** October 30, 2006, 08:48:20 PM »

Quote from: gordon tarbell on October 25, 2006, 06:17:02 PM

That helps a ton. I will stick to 610 inches or less and be very weight conscious. Thanks. Now how about info on decifering the code that tells what the performance of the motor and what battery pack is needed . I just got a catalog (promo size) from Tower . How do I know which motor to purchase or are the ones sold there not suitable for controline? Bottom line some of us need lots of schooling on this stuff so we don't break the bank buying the wrong stuff.

Bob Hunt was in the chat room the other night. He allowed as a general rule,that if you take your engine displacement, say a 40, and add a zero to it , will give you the approximate wattage rating for the motor you need ...400W(within the ball park). Based on the wing area and aircraft weight just as in selecting engine displacement.I beleive he said he has been working with Dean on his electric project.

I think that was the first thing I've ever heard on the subject that made sense. A good rule of thumb!!Since then, I've been giving the notion some consideration for future E-flite. Thanks for the breakdown Dean!

Dean Pappas · « **Reply #7 on:** October 31, 2006, 11:03:30 AM »

Hi and thanks Kim,
Looking over your setup, and after a few minutes with the Aveox freebie testbench simulator, I feel like my need to build a 60+ ounce testbed is gone. So the total of your motor, battery, and ESC weighs just how much? 27 or 28 ounces? Yup, 710 squares and 42 ounces finished is both respectable and do-able.
How do you like the Schulze governor? Does it have any adjustment features that make it stand out?

best to All,
Dean

Richard Grogan · « **Reply #8 on:** October 31, 2006, 02:19:09 PM »

Quote from: Kim Doherty on October 30, 2006, 07:51:45 PM

To go from zero to ready to practice and compete will cost you an easy $3,000 for all of the above plus all of the testing, monitoring, charging and balancing equipment.

Hope this helps!

Kim.

This airframe you built, "Shockwave", looks remarkably similar to the TF Score, which is 677 sq. in@ 56.5 in WS. I wonder if that would be a good candidate for a first time testbed into the 60 size electric arena? It is already lightened up substantially, and still has more wood that could be removed if needed..How hot do the Li Po batteries get during a flight?

The Shockwave sounds like the "hot" setup. Curiously, what time do you program on the timer to do a PAMPA pattern? This electric stuff is getting more interesting!

Kim Doherty · « **Reply #9 on:** October 31, 2006, 04:04:46 PM »

Dean,

The empty weight of my plane finished without any power train components is 38oz.
(1075gm) The weight with every thing except battery is 54.3oz.(1538gm). Total weight is 70.5 ounces.(1995gm) SHOCKWAVE is a full take-apart (two piece wing, stab and elevator, rudder and tail cone, cowl and engine) model. The fuselage is of molded balsa construction and all flying surfaces are built up and fully tapered (including the trailing edges).

Target weight was based on a 63oz plane with 7oz of fuel. Motor weight is10.7oz
(305gm) the Schulze ESC weighs 1.5oz.(45gm) The battery weighs 16.7oz.(473gm) The processor board weighs .75oz.(20gm)

The Schulze ESC is one of the best rated helicopter and pattern ESC's out there. Governor mode is dead consistent. The only settings available on a stock 18.46k ESC are via DIP switches. One of the reasons we picked it was that it had an enormous heat sink. In the 45 degree C temperatures of Spain, I was glad to have it although we have never had a problem with heat in any of the components.

I am currently working with Schulze to produce a proper C/L ESC.

Thks,

Kim.

Kim Doherty · « **Reply #10 on:** October 31, 2006, 08:48:38 PM »

Richard,

As I stated in one of my earlier responses I do not think it wise to try to re-engine an IC powered plane. There are significant differences in the necessary structure and the CofG.

Lipos should not get much hotter than body temperature in our application. Nor should they get much cooler. Around 40 degrees C would be a good temp.

I am not sure if SHOCKWAVE is the "HOT SETUP" but it certainly can get the job done.

My timer processor is set for a default flight time of six minutes and twenty seconds.

Thks,

Kim.

Richard Grogan · « **Reply #11 on:** October 31, 2006, 09:37:05 PM »

Quote from: Kim Doherty on October 31, 2006, 08:48:38 PM

I am not sure if SHOCKWAVE is the "HOT SETUP" but it certainly can get the job done.

/quote]
Kim,
I was only implying that its a world class competition airplane thats ready to duel on electric power(with the setup as described) at the able hands of a skilled pilot! Thats Hot!!! Point and click!It looks like its ready to win if you are!

I was thinking that the Score would be a lesser investment for someone that already flys 60 size aircraft to break into electric and learn things about it(electric power).

Someday, electric PA will be the primary mode of competition, I'm predicting....Thanks for the info, and have fun!
Richard

Kim Doherty · « **Reply #12 on:** November 01, 2006, 07:55:25 AM »

Richard,

Quote

I was thinking that the Score would be a lesser investment for someone that already flys 60 size aircraft to break into electric and learn things about it(electric power).

Someday, electric PA will be the primary mode of competition, I'm predicting....

I fully support your desire to fly a large electric plane. If I were starting over I would start at the same point and build a large plane. SHOCKWAVE is actually more like a .90 size stunter than a .60. I purposely did not put an electric motor in an existing airframe because I did not think it would be competitive. The SCORE is certainly a big enough plane but there are other issues that need to be addressed first.

It is not the cost of the airplane itself that will make or break the deal. There is a lot of support equipment that must be acquired to be able to monitor and diagnose what is going on. Batteries cost about $225 U.S. each and you wil need at least four. (eight would be more realistic) A computer driven charger and balancer are absolute musts and these also do not come cheap.

I have seen the SCORE fly and it looks pretty good to me. Take a look at the empty weight of the SCORE then add thirty two ounces to that. That will be the weight of your plane at take-off. Now take a look at the physical size of the battery I run (you will need to do some homework) and realize that it must be mounted partially inside the wing. Can you do this in the SCORE? How will you gain access to the battery to install and remove it? How will you retain it in the fuselage? (it weighs a pound!) What if they change the physical size of the battery you choose, will you still be able to fit it in and balance the plane? Where will you install the speed controll? How will you provide proper air flow around these heat sensitive components? How will you cowl the engine? Will the stock cowl fit the length of the motor? etc, etc.

It took 1400 hours to design and build SHOCKWAVE. I had a team of helpers that included two electrical engineers, two world class F3A pattern pilots(who fly large electric models), extensive building and machine shop services.

I say none of this to discourage your interest but rather to point out at least for the immediate future that this is not an easy or foolproof path to success.

I encourage you to do A LOT!!! of research prior to jumping on this bandwagon. I and anyone else following this path would welcome the company and will support your efforts.

As to whether electric will become the primary mode of competition someday, I think "someday" is a lot closer than some may think!

Now get busy and build an electric plane!

Kim.

linheart smith · « **Reply #13 on:** November 01, 2006, 09:58:36 AM »

I am very happy with my converted Bearcat.

Richard Grogan · « **Reply #14 on:** November 01, 2006, 10:08:53 AM »

Quote from: Kim Doherty on November 01, 2006, 07:55:25 AM

Richard,
Now get busy and build an electric plane!

Kim.

Thanks for the thoughtful insight, Kim! I think I'll back up and punt. Maybe look at the .40 size modifications to a kit-built Vector 40. I think it could be done right from a building standpoint knowing it is going to be electric. I think building a purpose built plane is the right way to go.

Like they say about Giant Scale aircraft " Big Plane, Big Bucks, and Big Headaches!!" The 60-90 size route is a bit out of my league right now;heck, I'd need a sponsor!!

I think I'll invest in a 450W or so powertrain system and acquire the experience I need to advance.Im looking forward to seeing what Dean, Bob H., and you are coming up with!Thanks again for the advice!
Richard

LARRY RICE · « **Reply #15 on:** November 08, 2006, 02:25:40 AM »

I found thie thread very interesting as over the last two years I have been working on adding an electric plane to my company (Black Hawk Models). In the beginning I asked the same question "What electric is equal to which engine?" I have long ago discovered that is not a question you can get a straight answer on.
I have a vast amount of knowledge at my fingertips with Dick Sarpolus working with me, a test pilot who is also into flying electrics and a couple of world class designers. When I asked for a simple, low cost, trainer you would have thought I had asked for the gold in Fort Knox. With a crew of a half dozen technitions and designers I could not get this simple idea across. I would say trainer and, like an Abbot and Costello routeen, they would wind up talking about the stunt pattern.
Electric control line will never be the primary force in the control line field until someone sits down and finds away to make it simple. When you ask "What gas engine do I need on this plane" the answer comes back in a simple one word statment ".40" and that is what electric needs to do; they need to be able to answer "40 package" or something like that.
Working with a company in the UK my trainer should be out late this month. The problem now is that it is to quiet. There has always been a problem that people walk into control line circles with a large noisey gas engine roaring in there ears but now with electric they do not hear or see it until it is to late.

Larry

Richard Grogan · « **Reply #16 on:** November 08, 2006, 03:41:52 PM »

Quote from: LARRY RICE on November 08, 2006, 02:25:40 AM

The problem now is that it is to quiet. There has always been a problem that people walk into control line circles with a large noisey gas engine roaring in there ears but now with electric they do not hear or see it until it is to late.
Larry

Maybe someone could come up with a minature, hi output piezo buzzer to hook to the power system supply. or maybe some type of "membrane" speaker that installs into the wings covering?hmmm

If all else fails, how about a playing card in the prop, like we did as kids with our bicycle spokes!!!WWWRRRRRRR!!!

Dean Pappas · « **Reply #17 on:** November 09, 2006, 10:00:31 AM »

Hello Larry,
I am intrigued! It sounds like a "gotta have it".
best of luck,
Dean

Walter Hicks · « **Reply #18 on:** December 13, 2006, 04:31:34 PM »

Picture of my set up that will go into Brodak P-40 Axi ,420014.8v,45ampesc,Zigras timer

Vincent Corwell · « **Reply #19 on:** December 14, 2006, 02:11:25 AM »

Hi Walter

thanks for the photo

what battery is that please?
looks like single pack 4200 x 14.8V
who sells this one please

Vincent

Walter Hicks · « **Reply #20 on:** December 14, 2006, 05:40:36 PM »

Hi Vincent,

The Battery is a Hyperion, 14.8 v 4200 mah. One pack.

Walter Hicks · « **Reply #21 on:** December 14, 2006, 05:42:07 PM »

woops - Hyperion Batter is a 4 cell

Author Topic: motor ,controller,and battery combos (Read 4093 times)

Kim Doherty

Kim Doherty

Kim Doherty

Kim Doherty

Walter Hicks

Walter Hicks

Walter Hicks