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Author Topic: MEC cells  (Read 1516 times)

Offline phil c

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MEC cells
« on: April 03, 2007, 07:50:39 AM »
I've seen a couple short articles on these in Flying Models and a couple of other places, but not too much real info.  Apparently DeWalt is using them for their high tech power packs.  Each cell is a sealed metal can.  It apparently uses different chemistry than the LiPo, which is safer and less likely to catch fire/explode, but has a similar energy density.  You can find the DeWalt packs on sale and get 2300 mah cells out of them for $10 apiece, which is a pretty good price.

Actually, these are lithium ion cells from A123 Systems.  http://www.modelelectronicscorp.com/products/SPTs/loose-cells.php
http://www.a123systems.com/html/company.html
« Last Edit: April 03, 2007, 08:10:49 AM by phil c »
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Offline Igor Burger

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Re: MEC cells
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2007, 09:51:08 AM »
I already twice asked if anyone tried them in stunt, but it looks no answer yet. I have already 6cell pack on desk. They are heavy, but unlike Lipo they can be used almost till last piece of capacity because the volage does not drop lile Lipo.

http://elektromodely.com/modely/images/aku/a123_big.jpg

http://elektromodely.com/modely/images/aku/a123d_big.gif

Offline Mike Palko

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Re: MEC cells
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2007, 10:16:57 PM »
The A123 cells have great potential. I don't think they will catch on in PA models just yet because they have a lower energy density than Lipo's (we look for any advantage we can get). They are however a good lower cost (about $90 for 10 cells) and safer (aluminum case rather than foil bag) alternative to Lipo's. There is no reason they can't be used in lower skill level events or sport flying. To give you an idea of performance, they are better than NiMH, but not as good as Lipo's.   

One drawback is the need for a separate charger. A Lipo charger will not charge A123 cells because of the voltage difference, 3.6 volts for the A123 cell and 4.2 volts for a Lipo cell. For this reason we will also need different pack configurations. A123 cells have a capacity of 2300mah ONLY and a weight of ~2.5oz ONLY. Lipo's on the other hand have MANY capacities and weights to choose from.

If you feel up to the task you can modify your Astro Flight 109 charger to charge A123 cells (thanks to Pat Mackenzie). The mods are very simple and only require a capacitor, wire and a spdt on/on switch (oh yea, and the risk of voiding your warranty or ruining your charger). Once you are able to charge them they can be charged at greater than 1C  ;D, so flight to flight turn around will no longer be ~ 1 hour like Lipo's. 


I think A123 cells have a bright future (or new batteries that are developed from their technology). I would like to use A123 cells and see what the highest attainable performance is and stay on a tight budget. I have thought about using NiMH cells again at some point, just to see what can be done for cheap. ;D At any rate I am keeping an eye on them.     

Emoli cells are another alternative not talked about.  S?P

Offline Igor Burger

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Re: MEC cells
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2007, 01:42:42 AM »
A123 ARE heavier, but not as much as it looks for first look. The reason is that they keep voltage to the end of capacity so it is possible to use almost all its available capacity. YOu can easily compare capacity which you can get from Kokam 3200 3,2Ah and A123 2,3Ah ... especially after 50 cycles.

The weight is 7x70g=490g and you can get 3.3x7x2.3=~53Wh, while kokam 3200pack will give you 6x70g=420g an you can get at best 0.8x3.2x3,7x6=~57Wh and you can count with longer life time (more cycles) at A123

Regarding chargers - If you make 7 cell A123pack, you can use charger for 6 lipo cells. The only problem is, that chargers giving 10A are not so cheap (yes A123 could be charged at 10A, so it it usually eanough to have one pack as a 15min break is OK). And if you have 7 cell battery, the capacity is far enough for whole flight.

BTW A123 can be charged with any charger which allows manual voltage limitation for example robbe maxamp or another way is for example 4 cell pack can be charged on Pb program of usual charger (14,4V)

Offline Dean Pappas

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Re: MEC cells
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2007, 10:04:02 AM »
Hi Igor,
The running voltage is lower, though. On the other hand, they don't vent with flame!
For competition RC annd CL the weight/voltage penalty is a bummer, but for Sport flying, this safety factor makes it hard to justify any other battery.
Then again, they can be charged in 20 minutes!
later,
Dean
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Offline fernando torres

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Re: MEC cells
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2007, 04:16:15 PM »
If these are the same cells used in cordless drills( Dewalt, Ridgid, etc.), most of of us have them. We can use the drill charger. Right?
FET

Offline Dean Pappas

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Re: MEC cells
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2007, 05:09:17 PM »
Yes Fernando,
And it's a fast charger too!
If you go to A123 batteries website they have a line of product for RC under the name A123 Racing.
The balancing charger they offer can do very fast charge cycles.
Dean
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Offline phil c

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Re: MEC cells
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2007, 11:45:21 AM »
According to the figures, the A123 cells can be used at upwards of 70 amps- 30C.  I plug in the numbers for a 3S2P pack, weighing around 420 gr. and get a peak output of at least 590 watts and a capacity of 45wh.  Since LiPos are generally only being used to 75% capacity, there really doesn't look like much difference in overall performance.  These cells do seem to be more oriented to high dishcharge rates though, which is more in line with NiCd type handling.

Igor, you really need to try your pack as a 6s1p, at around 20 amps.
phil Cartier

Offline Dean Pappas

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Re: MEC cells
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2007, 12:02:48 PM »
Hi Gang,
Here's a data sheet for the cell.
Dean
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Offline Igor Burger

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Re: MEC cells
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2007, 04:16:40 PM »
Yes, the cell itself can give 70A, but I must note that connecting pads are made from thin Nickel, so its resistance is relatively high

I measured those pads and I got resistance battery-battery 0,7mohm it is usefull for 20A used in DeWalt tools - the thermal heating is only 0,3W, but at peak power in our model, say 50A on ground or in vertical parts of maneuvers it makes 1.75W and that is already lot of energy (on every connection between batteries) and at 70A it gives 3,5W what is enough for disconnecting.

So those 70A is number valid for CELL ONLY, not for standard connecting nickel pads, they must be removed and replaced by thick copper leads or cells can be soldered directly cell to cell

Offline fernando torres

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Re: MEC cells
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2007, 04:45:08 PM »
Thanks Dean et al:
 I found this forum  discussion on 123 batteries http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_4667844/tm.htm might be useful.  It's onR/C Universe.
Haven't gotten into it yet.
Fet
FET

Offline fernando torres

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Re: MEC cells
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2007, 04:54:59 PM »
For The Moderator or Sparky:
If you notice on the above link(here it is again) http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_4667844/tm.htm  the discussion was started by members of the 123 company. Maybe you can ask them to link to, or get into our forum too, so that we can ask them questions related to C/L. Thanks.
FET
FET

Offline Igor Burger

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Re: MEC cells
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2007, 03:36:56 PM »
So I did it after all:

Battery 6s1p A123
Motor PJS 1900 ... kv=1038rpm/v, 33mohm, 140g (5oz)
folding prop aeronaut 11x6
model weight 54oz span 55"
TO rpm 10000
lap time on 60ft lines 5,2s
needs 2100mah for 5 minutes

the motor was very hot, it is too small for such a power, so I used spinner with cooling vent, but epoxy smell was clear after every flights. (the producer says no problem while magnets are under boiling point).
I had problems with CG so I did not want to use heavier one.

The weight handicap was clear, the battery weight is 15oz. But I was able to charge it in 15 minutes (charging current is 10A), it allows next flight after 20 minutes break, what allows to use only one battery pack. I did flights as often as possible and found that the battery is coldest part of the whole powertrain.

So my conclusion is that A123 IS usefull, but need really light model which will not feel that extra weight.

The model is old IC type (for FP .40) reworked for lectric. Cells are moved as back as possible. But it needed 2oz tailweight anyway.




Offline Dean Pappas

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Re: MEC cells
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2007, 12:58:33 PM »
Looks interesting Igor!
Maybe I'll have to play with a 3S2P battery and higher Kv (~1200) motor in a 45-ounce (1275 g) model.
I wonder how low of a Kv I can manage in this sort of package. The excellent tolerance of the A123 cell to high peak currents could play well with a very low resistance motor in that Kv range.
until later,
Dean P.
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Offline Igor Burger

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Re: MEC cells
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2007, 01:10:38 PM »
hmmmm ... yes, may be the 3s2p will work better with actualy available motors, but problem is with chargers, 3s2p will take twice the charging time at the same charging current. Most of available chargers are limited to 10A. I have ballancing charger FMA Balancepro HD 6s and also Pulsar2 - boths are alimited to 10A but can make enough voltage for charging.

Also ESC for 1s is smaller, this setup will work well with Jeti Spin44.


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