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Author Topic: Matching rpm of motor kV to battery  (Read 1974 times)

Online Dennis Toth

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Matching rpm of motor kV to battery
« on: August 25, 2008, 10:12:19 PM »
Guys,

I have been flying the new ship for several weeks and am very close on mah capacity with the AXI2820/8 (1500kV) and the 4600mah 3s2p A123 battery (about 9.9 V). I have moved the rpm around a little started with 8800 in the test ship and after loading the new firmware for the CC45 wound up at 8600 and adjusted the pitch to give the 5.0 lap (64.5' lines). Depending on the temperature I make the pattern or get the 3 blip in the last loop of the clover (very exciting). Now looking at some of the other set ups it seems that I am running at about 24% throttle to hold the 8600rpm in governor mode with 30% spare rpm at full throttle. With the current set up I pull out about 4050mah which has a voltage of about 9.12V. This is well within the range of the A123 pack but sometimes it hits the low voltage cut off just as it starts to shut down.

Would I save some amps if I dropped the pitch down to say 4.5" (currently at 6") and moved the rpm up to the 10K range putting the motor at say 75% throttle (need to test to see exactly were this would be) to hold the 10K?   

Best,       Dennis

Alan Hahn

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Re: Matching rpm of motor kV to battery
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2008, 07:47:29 AM »
Dennis,
It seems the both of us are on a similar quest to match our motors/rpm to our battery packs. Here are a few of my "givens".  ("given" simply means that I believe the principle is correct, but can't completely quantify the exact value)


1) A large diameter low-rpm prop is more efficient than a smaller lower diameter prop running at a higher rpm in providing the same thrust--or you need less power to make the same amount of thrust. Thrust is what your plane cares about. Also I believe a larger prop increases its thrust faster as airspeed drops (at constant motor rpm) which works out better in the overheads.
2) Running at a low throttle setting is punishing to your battery, and to some extent to your ESC. Basically we measure the average current the battery is putting out. If you are flying at half throttle (lets say), then the instantaneous amps are twice what you measure, with the net result that the heating in the battery (taking into account the current is flowing only 1/2 the time) is twice what you would have with the same current if the ESC was running at full throttle. This means that you are leaving watts in the battery that you could have been sending to the ESC. Of course we always have to run at less than full throttle to have the extra "oompf" when we pull the nose up.

So what you are suggesting is beating "given" 1 against "given" 2. The better, but more costly solution is to buy a motor with a lower kV (I am guessing that 1100 would be about right for you). However it is worth trying what you suggest, simply because I am not sure where your optimum spot is for your current motor/battery.

Online Dennis Toth

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Re: Matching rpm of motor kV to battery
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2008, 10:26:37 AM »
Alan,

I agree with the change in motor and will likely move to that once I get a little better feel for what does what. I have a whole draw full of props to play with from my 4stroke days and a pretty good data base on how they ran. The thing that got me looking at this was your success with the 12x6 on the Nobler with the 4s1p 2100mah pack pull out only 1900mah (ish) with the lower kV motor. It seems that if I have 2300mah and go to a 5sp1 pack I should be able to use similar amps if I let the motor run up higher on the rpm range. I hope to do some testing soon starting with just moving the rpm up with the lower pitch (same diameter). I hope to get to <49 static amps @ about 10K with a 4" pitch on the APCE 12x6 cut to 11 1/2 diameter. The ship really like anything 11 1/2 and larger diameter.

Best,          Dennis

Alan Hahn

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Re: Matching rpm of motor kV to battery
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2008, 12:25:40 PM »
Dennis,
Actually the last few flights have been pulling out ~1600mAHr! However those electrons are being pushed by ~14-15V and so have more power than those coming out of your 10V setup. In the end it is the Watt-Minutes that matter (Watt-Minutes are more relevant than watt-hours in our application, but being FPL guy, I know you already know that!

Alan Hahn

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Re: Matching rpm of motor kV to battery
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2008, 07:47:53 AM »
I don't actually have the numbers digested yet, but with a test flight using a motor with a kV of 725 (this is so low that I fall off the governor going into the overhead 8--bad for the pattern, but good for testing near open throttle), I must say that the efficiency increase is NOT overwhelming compared to flying with my normal 880 kV (or even 1080 kV) motors.

So I need to let this new data percolate a little in my head to understand a bit more.

I plan to put the 880kV motor (one I have been flying with this year) back into the Nobler today.

Also the jury is still out on the pusher vs tractor prop. It probably takes me about a 1/2 week or so to change rpms to get me where I feel comfortable with flying. I am surprised how much softer (less pull) the pusher prop is than the tractor--I am guessing the pitch is a little less. In yesterday's test I flew the 725 kV motor with both props at the same rpm (~7950)  and definitely prefer the performance of the tractor. But it also pulls more power too. The true test would be to increase the rpms a bit for the pusher, but like I said, this takes a couple of tries --=days of flyable weather.

Offline Larry Wong

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Re: Matching rpm of motor kV to battery
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2008, 09:58:19 PM »
Alan   I think that if you thought about it when using a pusher prop, the air effect on you rudder would also make it turn right, beside having the torque effect also..... humm   y1  :!
Larry

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Online Dennis Toth

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Re: Matching rpm of motor kV to battery
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2008, 10:26:28 PM »
Alan,

When I look at the useage of your system and look at mine it sure looks like the motor kV has a significant impact on mah use for a 5 min flight. Since amp x volts = watts if you are at 19 amps x 15V = 285W, now if I aim for the same Watts at 10V I need 28.5 amps. Ok but my motor at a 1500kV rating draws like 54 amps. The battery technology doesn't matter but the motor seems to be the variable that can make a big difference.

You are using a 3020/10 @ 880kV and I am using a 2820/8 @ 1500kV. Both motors are very close in physical size so there should be no significant torque difference from the mechanical size. The big difference is the windings. The 880 kV seems to need significantly less amps to turn the 12x6 at 8100rpm. With the A123 pack that I have I could easily make it into a 6s1p 19.8V, 2300 mah (like Igor's) by flipping three cells around in the holder or do 5 cells with a dummy for 16.5V @ 2300mah. Question is will this make the 5min 20sec run time and what kV rating would work best at these voltage levels?

Best,         Dennis

Alan Hahn

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Re: Matching rpm of motor kV to battery
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2008, 08:02:30 AM »
Dennis,
I do agree that you want to match the kV, but my only comment is that close enough is good enough. I've been obsessing a bit too much about my 880kV motor, thinking that if it were 800kV or 775kV that my battery would be happier. I am just a bit surprised that it doesn't seem to matter as much as I thought it would.

Now your 1500kV is pretty high, and maybe it would make a difference.

Another thing to think about is your plane. I chose the TF ARF Nobler because 1) I had one!, 2) they are pretty darn light (experience from my Brodak 40 powered one), and 3) they have a relatively thin airfoil compared to today's stunt behemoths! I was hoping the thinner airfoil would translate into a good cruising efficiency.

If you go to my old motor test thread http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=9256.0 , you can see that I tested (in the garage) the efficiency of my 3020-12 Stock motor (kV~1080) and my 3020-16 Hand wound motor (kV=880). The 880 kV was more efficient (~10%?) than the 1080 on a 4s pack at max power. Now this test does not account for the battery in the equation (I was only comparing how many average watts it took to run the ESC and motor at a fixed rpm with the same props. Taking the battery also into the equation should tilt the efficiency more towards the lower kV motor, but I haven't actually figured out how to do that--except by flying the plane. However you would need to fly in exactly the same weather to make a comparison (another way of saying that the differences are not gigantic). Maybe another way would be to run a test over a fixed period of time. Need to think about that one a bit.

By the way, the 775kV motor was just the 3014-16 mentioned in the above thread, but I re-terminated the windings from the original "Delta" configuration (which gave a kV=1250) to a "Wye" (or "Star") termination which gave a kV of 725. Too bad that was just a little too low a kV for the 4s battery. Because otherwise, it would have been a nice motor for the Nobler (and an ounce less weight than the 3020's!).


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