Author Topic: Electrics in cold temp.. (Read 10750 times)

Joe Yau · « **on:** January 03, 2015, 03:13:12 PM »

Just wondering if Electrics are really that bad in the cold? like around 0 Celsius +/- 3 degrees. as I notice there were absolutely no Electrics were flown at the local Polar Bear FunFly event. and could a slightly bigger bettery be used to compensate this type of condition?

Joe Yau · « **Reply #1 on:** January 03, 2015, 10:13:04 PM »

I guess not many flys Electrics in the cold here..?

Crist Rigotti · « **Reply #2 on:** January 03, 2015, 11:04:06 PM »

Joe,
A simple search will show that Lipo batteries don't do well when cold. Keep them warm install them and fly them right away.

Joe Yau · « **Reply #3 on:** January 04, 2015, 04:56:35 AM »

Quote from: Crist Rigotti on January 03, 2015, 11:04:06 PM

Joe,
A simple search will show that Lipo batteries don't do well when cold. Keep them warm install them and fly them right away.

Well, that doesn't exactly answer my question. It's quite obvious that the temperature does effects it... and keeping it warm is a no brainer. but by how much in percent at what temp? (At what temp it starts to loose the performance and by how much? what's the discharge curve like?) For example: temp at 10 degree C = 5.5 mins flight time (normal), 5 degree C = 5.1 mins flight time (might start to slow on the clover), and 0 degree C = 4.8 mins flight time etc. etc.(starts to slow on the OH-8) That's with new batt with less then 30 cycles. and would a larger batt help.. (like from a 2700 mah to 3300mah etc or different C rating) of course there will be some weight penalty.

Crist Rigotti · « **Reply #4 on:** January 04, 2015, 05:05:03 AM »

Quote from: Joe Yau on January 04, 2015, 04:56:35 AM

Well, that doesn't exactly answer my question. It's quite obvious that the temperature does effects it... and keeping it warm is a no brainer. but by how much in percent at what temp? (At what temp it starts to loose the performance and by how much? what's the discharge curve like?) For example: temp at 10 degree C = 5.5 mins flight time (normal), 5 degree C = 5.1 mins flight time (might start to slow on the clover), and 0 degree C = 4.8 mins flight time etc. etc.(starts to slow on the OH-8) That's with new batt with less then 30 cycles. and would a larger batt help.. (like from a 2700 mah to 3300mah etc or different C rating) of course there will be some weight penalty.

Joe,
You could do some testing and report back? Then we will all know for sure the answers to your questions.

Joe Yau · « **Reply #5 on:** January 04, 2015, 09:36:59 AM »

Quote from: Crist Rigotti on January 04, 2015, 05:05:03 AM

Joe,
You could do some testing and report back? Then we will all know for sure the answers to your questions.

no one knows huh?

Chris Cox · « **Reply #6 on:** January 04, 2015, 10:24:57 AM »

Hello Joe

The reason Alan and I did not fly on New Years, was because we don't work so good in the cold, it had nothing to do with the fact that we fly electric. Yes, it requires a little more power from the the battery in colder weather, possibly 200 to 300 more mAh than compared to the summer. I can use the same batteries as I use I in the summer to fly in the colder weather. For some reason ,Alan's airplane uses a bit more energy than my airplane to complete a pattern, so in colder weather, Alan may be closer to using more than the recommended 80% mAh available to him, in which case, a larger battery may be required.

All that said, don't forget that the airplane actually flies much better (efficiently) in cold air. Much more lift is available. So the answer is, electrics will fly every bit as well as IC in cold weather.

As mentioned above though, some pilots don't do cold weather as well as other!

Joe Yau · « **Reply #7 on:** January 04, 2015, 02:58:35 PM »

Quote from: Chris_Cox on January 04, 2015, 10:24:57 AM

Hello Joe

The reason Alan and I did not fly on New Years, was because we don't work so good in the cold, it had nothing to do with the fact that we fly electric. Yes, it requires a little more power from the the battery in colder weather, possibly 200 to 300 more mAh than compared to the summer. I can use the same batteries as I use I in the summer to fly in the colder weather. For some reason ,Alan's airplane uses a bit more energy than my airplane to complete a pattern, so in colder weather, Alan may be closer to using more than the recommended 80% mAh available to him, in which case, a larger battery may be required.

All that said, don't forget that the airplane actually flies much better (efficiently) in cold air. Much more lift is available. So the answer is, electrics will fly every bit as well as IC in cold weather.

As mentioned above though, some pilots don't do cold weather as well as other!

Hi Chris,

Thanks for the insight.. I guess I'm one of the few that likes flying in the cold. less bugs, less wind, and the cool air gives better lift performance (as you've mentioned ). It sure makes my porky plane flys like much less porky..

But I also like to be able to fly my Electric in the cold. I could always pick up another set of batt with higher mah and re-adjust the CG. it just good to know how much bigger to go.. and hopefully the extra lift from the cold air will compensate the added weight.

David Hoover · « **Reply #8 on:** January 04, 2015, 06:03:36 PM »

Here's a graph I found online. Use at your own risk.

Joe Yau · « **Reply #9 on:** January 04, 2015, 08:01:27 PM »

Quote from: David Hoover on January 04, 2015, 06:03:36 PM

Here's a graph I found online. Use at your own risk.

Thanks David. excellent find!

Joe

Horby · « **Reply #10 on:** January 04, 2015, 11:59:27 PM »

Joe,
Like Chris said, don't worry about the cold. If you are that concerned, wrap the battery in reflective bubble wrap as you install the battery. It weighs nothing and will keep the batery warm until you start using it then it will trap the heat. The motor will love the cooler Temps and the plane will fly better. Not only that electrics are easier to start. Just fly.

Warren

Vincent Corwell · « **Reply #11 on:** January 05, 2015, 12:52:35 AM »

Happy New Year all
My flying buddy , Ivan , and I recently flew similar planes with similar lipos, brought to the field fully charged,
4 batteries each, I had the Hobbyking battery warmer set to 25C, my friend had them in his flight backpack

after each flight both sets showd only 14% left in the lipos , leaving us anxious, although when the lipos
returned to room temp later they had over 20% remaining, still using those lipos with no apparant bad
results, it seems the batteries dont know !

Vincent

Rudy Taube · « **Reply #12 on:** January 05, 2015, 03:41:17 AM »

Hi Joe,

Our ECL systems will work great in any temps you can fly CL in.

   1. The motor likes it REALLY cold, the colder the better for the magnets! It is happy anywhere from a K value cold up to around 135 F (>150 = problems, > 200 = big problem$)

   2. The battery is most happy somewhere between 90 and 120. Very unhappy <70 or > 135 F. Please see below for help on this.

   3. The ESC can run well below 0 C, it will warm itself in ECL. It has an upper limit similar to the motor.

Vincent has the right idea. Here is the link to these "battery warmers".

   http://hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__56256__Turnigy_Programmable_Lipo_Battery_Warmer_Bag_12v_DC_US_Warehouse_.html

I have two of them and they work great. I use them when the temps here in Southern Cal. plunge down to a brutal 53 F in the early AM, in the dead of winter! ..... (I have tested them up in the mountains with temps below freezing, and they work just fine.) They are mostly used by the E car racing guys. They want every Watt of power "instantly", they can't wait for the batteries to warm up by themselves.

There are many other solutions, but this is one of the best. It allows you to safely control the battery temp. with it's multiple setting feature. By hooking it up to any 3S battery for power (I use a 3S 5 Amp) it is very convenient to use anywhere. Be careful with hand warmers and the like, and please don't put them in your pocket with change or keys, better yet, not al all.

I am not a fan of most HobbyKing products, but some of their accessories are great. This and their cool battery full/empty indicators are very good.

Battery Temps below 60F degrees really need a little help (<40 F, a lot of help) before flight and during the flight. If you are going to fly in <50 F temps, you may want to close your cowl flaps (in our case put some tape over your air outlet, cutting it in half to start, then experiment with more)

Good luck with your winter adventure. Please post photos. Those of us who live in a "winter deprived" areas are always curious how you more hardy flyers conquer brutal temps below 45F.

May the power of Tesla be with you.

Joe Yau · « **Reply #13 on:** January 05, 2015, 11:55:58 AM »

Quote from: Horby on January 04, 2015, 11:59:27 PM

Joe,
Like Chris said, don't worry about the cold. If you are that concerned, wrap the battery in reflective bubble wrap as you install the battery. It weighs nothing and will keep the batery warm until you start using it then it will trap the heat. The motor will love the cooler Temps and the plane will fly better. Not only that electrics are easier to start. Just fly.

Warren

Hi Warren,

Well,worry or not.. It is a fact that Lipo batteries does looses a fair amount of reserve capacity as the temp goes down. and is much worst then the lead acid, and gel cell etc we use for sound systems in cars. In the last few years.. I’ve seen other flyer have this same issue as well. ( slowing down on the last few manoeuvres were often seen) and same thing with electrics in r/c helis at the other field I fly at. while my IC stuff works just fine, it actually runs even better in the cold.. especially my 4-stroke. I have thought of wrapping the batt with hand warmer, but not sure if it might get too warm during the flight. The reflective bubble wrap might help I think, will have to give it a try and see if it maintain the temp long enough for the flight.

I actually use that stuff to keep CF props from the summer heat.

Quote from: Vincent Corwell on January 05, 2015, 12:52:35 AM

Happy New Year all
My flying buddy , Ivan , and I recently flew similar planes with similar lipos, brought to the field fully charged,
4 batteries each, I had the Hobbyking battery warmer set to 25C, my friend had them in his flight backpack

after each flight both sets showd only 14% left in the lipos , leaving us anxious, although when the lipos
returned to room temp later they had over 20% remaining, still using those lipos with no apparant bad
results, it seems the batteries dont know !

Vincent

Hi Vincent, Happy new year!

Thanks for the insight on the Hobbyking battery warmer.

Quote from: Rudy Taube on January 05, 2015, 03:41:17 AM

Hi Joe,

Our ECL systems will work great in any temps you can fly CL in.

   1. The motor likes it REALLY cold, the colder the better for the magnets! It is happy anywhere from a K value cold up to around 135 F (>150 = problems, > 200 = big problem$)

   2. The battery is most happy somewhere between 90 and 120. Very unhappy <70 or > 135 F. Please see below for help on this.

   3. The ESC can run well below 0 C, it will warm itself in ECL. It has an upper limit similar to the motor.

Vincent has the right idea. Here is the link to these "battery warmers".

   http://hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__56256__Turnigy_Programmable_Lipo_Battery_Warmer_Bag_12v_DC_US_Warehouse_.html

I have two of them and they work great. I use them when the temps here in Southern Cal. plunge down to a brutal 53 F in the early AM, in the dead of winter! ..... (I have tested them up in the mountains with temps below freezing, and they work just fine.) They are mostly used by the E car racing guys. They want every Watt of power "instantly", they can't wait for the batteries to warm up by themselves.

There are many other solutions, but this is one of the best. It allows you to safely control the battery temp. with it's multiple setting feature. By hooking it up to any 3S battery for power (I use a 3S 5 Amp) it is very convenient to use anywhere. Be careful with hand warmers and the like, and please don't put them in your pocket with change or keys, better yet, not al all.

I am not a fan of most HobbyKing products, but some of their accessories are great. This and their cool battery full/empty indicators are very good.

Battery Temps below 60F degrees really need a little help (<40 F, a lot of help) before flight and during the flight. If you are going to fly in <50 F temps, you may want to close your cowl flaps (in our case put some tape over your air outlet, cutting it in half to start, then experiment with more)

Good luck with your winter adventure. Please post photos. Those of us who live in a "winter deprived" areas are always curious how you more hardy flyers conquer brutal temps below 45F.

May the power of Tesla be with you.

Thanks Rudy. Good stuff!

That's very informative. didn't know it starts to fall off that early (< 70 F), and < 40 F is real bad already

. I will have to pick up one of those battery warmer bags for sure.

Randy Powell · « **Reply #14 on:** January 05, 2015, 02:04:23 PM »

I want a batter warmer that will plug into the 120v jack in the car.

Rudy Taube · « **Reply #15 on:** January 06, 2015, 01:41:10 PM »

Quote from: Randy Powell on January 05, 2015, 02:04:23 PM

I want a batter warmer that will plug into the 120v jack in the car.

Randy, if you have to warm your "bat", I would not plug it into a 120v jack if I were you!

Howard Rush · « **Reply #16 on:** January 06, 2015, 02:13:50 PM »

Quote from: Randy Powell on January 05, 2015, 02:04:23 PM

I want a batter warmer that will plug into the 120v jack in the car.

Stop that, Rudy. Randy clearly said he wanted to warm his batter. I hope that means he's bringing pancakes to the field.

Randy Powell · « **Reply #17 on:** January 06, 2015, 03:07:29 PM »

Yes, a batter warmer. For Howard's blueberry pancakes. And a syrup warmer, too.

Larry Wong · « **Reply #18 on:** January 06, 2015, 07:04:47 PM »

Quote from: Chris_Cox on January 04, 2015, 10:24:57 AM

Hello Joe

The reason Alan and I did not fly on New Years, was because we don't work so good in the cold, it had nothing to do with the fact that we fly electric. Yes, it requires a little more power from the the battery in colder weather, possibly 200 to 300 more mAh than compared to the summer. I can use the same batteries as I use I in the summer to fly in the colder weather. For some reason ,Alan's airplane uses a bit more energy than my airplane to complete a pattern, so in colder weather, Alan may be closer to using more than the recommended 80% mAh available to him, in which case, a larger battery may be required.

All that said, don't forget that the airplane actually flies much better (efficiently) in cold air. Much more lift is available. So the answer is, electrics will fly every bit as well as IC in cold weather.

As mentioned above though, some pilots don't do cold weather as well as other!

I think the difference on Chris & Alan's flight is Alan flys the wrong direction !

Chris Cox · « **Reply #19 on:** January 06, 2015, 07:35:17 PM »

Larry - exactly! I've been telling Alan this for years!

Rudy Taube · « **Reply #20 on:** January 06, 2015, 10:28:45 PM »

Howard,

Thank you for the clarification (or nice save? ;-) ... My humble apologies to Randy, I should have known that a youngster like him would never need a bat warmer!

Rudy Taube · « **Reply #21 on:** January 06, 2015, 11:37:25 PM »

Joe,

Your Quote: ".......... didn't know it starts to fall off that early (< 70 F), and < 40 F is real bad already Shocked . I will have to pick up one of those battery warmer bags for sure."

I did not intend to shock you, just a small jolt ;-) A little below 70 F (21 C) is not a big deal. I just wanted to point out that this issue starts earlier than most people think it does. As shown in the graph posted earlier on this thread, there is only a small degradation of power from the ideal (around 115 F, 46C) down to 70 F (21C). The power loss just below 70 F is small, but begins to drop off rapidly as the temperature slowly drops.

If you have adequate headroom in your battery, you can get away with no heat at temps above 60 F (16C).

Below 60 F your battery may begin to show some signs of weakness toward the end of your flight. Again, this depends on your headroom. Below 60 F, and definitely below 50 F, the cool air coming into our planes inlets begins to do too good of a job and this helps keep the battery temps low. As you see in the graph, the drop off is not linear, it gets bad quickly below 50 F (10C). ..... This is why I suggested modifying your planes cooling system at low temps. Preheating (and the normal warming caused by the battery working hard during the flight) will not be enough to save the day ..... unless you have a lot of headroom, you will need to control the cooling system. ;-)

Please keep us posted with your flight results. I have flown ERC in "wimpy" cold (36 F, 2C), but nothing like your attempting in the real polar regions! ........ Text books and graphs are great, but it would be nice to get real life data on flying ECL in temps below 0 C.

Horby · « **Reply #22 on:** January 10, 2015, 07:24:32 PM »

I fly regularly in 15c, and don't really notice any difference to 25c. When I flew in 4c I noticed a bit of a difference but not much either. This spring will be interesting, I will be using bigger batteries and temps around 5c to 15c, I will be paying close attention to see what happens. But Joe stumbled upon something that really hasn't been investigated.

Dean Pappas · « **Reply #23 on:** January 12, 2015, 12:06:06 PM »

Hi Joe,
Hi All,
I've personally done a bunch of cold weather E-flying and the trick is to keep the batteries at body temp or slightly higher.
For starters, running will heat the batteries from the inside out ... but taking them from dead cold to maybe 100F in one shot is mild abuse.

Lacking any fancy heated car seats, I would show up at the field with batteries charged and warm from home in a small Styrofoam "cooler" with a minimal slot for charging wires.
I would run the motor in my plane for a minute to warm it further, and immediately partially recharge it inside the cooler.
Typically, the battery would be between a comfortable room temp and body temp at this stage. Straight into the plane it goes.

Blocking off part of the airflow into the battery compartment works too, provided you still have a cooling path to the ESC and motor.
My RC buddies flying profile flat foamies use a plastic mailing envelope around the battery to reduce the cooling of the exposed batteries.

Regards,
Dean P.

Darkstar1 · « **Reply #24 on:** January 13, 2015, 05:23:57 AM »

Couldn't resist The temp was below 50 Degs at the time. But the battery (The 12v) wasn't fully charged before I went out. Has anybody else seen this from their Cellpro chargers?

Shug Emery · « **Reply #25 on:** January 13, 2015, 06:40:45 AM »

Been flying my electric RC planes ( I know, I know) down on my lake here in Minnesota and have shorter flight times for sure and a noticable drop off in power after a spell but they do work. Reckon if I was doing stunt...don't have my electric cl planes ready to go yet I think I would be conservative towards the latter half of the pattern.

Shug

Dwayne · « **Reply #26 on:** January 14, 2015, 08:25:10 PM »

Quote from: Joe Yau on January 03, 2015, 03:13:12 PM

Just wondering if Electrics are really that bad in the cold? like around 0 Celsius +/- 3 degrees. as I notice there were absolutely no Electrics were flown at the local Polar Bear FunFly event. and could a slightly bigger bettery be used to compensate this type of condition?

Kingston On. minus 17 with the wind chill, my R/C electric stick .40 is in my car, I fly as much as I can almost every weekend it's not to windy with virtually no issues. I does help we have a club house with a wood stove but plane stays out on the line.

Paul Walker · « **Reply #27 on:** January 15, 2015, 07:36:48 PM »

Quote from: Darkstar1 on January 13, 2015, 05:23:57 AM

Couldn't resist The temp was below 50 Degs at the time. But the battery (The 12v) wasn't fully charged before I went out. Has anybody else seen this from their Cellpro chargers?

Yes I have seen that. I use a Power Lab 8 and if below 60 degrees F it will not fully charge. This is to protect the battery. Simply warm the battery and charger up past 60 degrees and it will fully charge.

Joe Yau · « **Reply #28 on:** November 28, 2015, 06:14:47 PM »

Quote from: Crist Rigotti on January 04, 2015, 05:05:03 AM

Joe,
You could do some testing and report back?

O.k., with my new Electric Legacy.. I've recently flew it in the cold in 3 separate flying sessions with temperature ranging around 3C-5C. and so far so good, not even a hint or noticeable issue like slowing near the end. in fact the plane performs better in the cold. I guess I'll have to try it closer to 0C degree or below and see how that goes.

Horby · « **Reply #29 on:** December 01, 2015, 06:33:07 PM »

Told ya!

Author Topic: Electrics in cold temp.. (Read 10750 times)

Dwayne