Author Topic: Launching your Electric Plane??? (Read 2893 times)

Gary Anderson · « **on:** July 22, 2010, 08:28:35 PM »

Hi guys, I have a question about launching my electric plane. The plane has a timer on it that delays for thirty seconds. My partner comes to the circle with me and holds on to the plane until I get to my handle and then I wave good bye to my helper. I have control of the plane once the engine starts. I have been told bye some that the helper has to hold on to the plane until the engine starts!!!!!! I was looking through the rule book and didn't see where this is stated?

? I want my helper to leave for two reasons, there no reason for him to be there, cause I have control of the plane. Second reason, why have the helper in harms way when he isn't needed?

I thought as long as someone had control of the plane this was all that is needed?

I would appreciate any input, cause it looks cool when the electric engine starts and ya get that slow roll just like the real thing baby!!!!!! Gary

Wynn Robins · « **Reply #1 on:** July 22, 2010, 08:45:14 PM »

simple - because not everything is guaranteed to work 100% of the time - if there is any glitch for any reason - you will have an uncontrolled airplane quicker than you can think.

nothing is fool proof, nothing is 100% EVER!!!!!!

Gary Anderson · « **Reply #2 on:** July 22, 2010, 11:06:48 PM »

Quote from: Wynn Robins on July 22, 2010, 08:45:14 PM

simple - because not everything is guaranteed to work 100% of the time - if there is any glitch for any reason - you will have an uncontrolled airplane quicker than you can think.

nothing is fool proof, nothing is 100% EVER!!!!!!

Hi how would you have a uncontrolable plane, if the pilot is already holding the handle?

If this is the case you should never let go of a plane?

Rudy Taube · « **Reply #3 on:** July 22, 2010, 11:46:11 PM »

Hi Gary,

I think Wynn misunderstood your post. Wynn is correct if someone is alone and depends only on the timer delay WITHOUT a stooge. Then it is dangerous. Almost every ECL pilot I know of uses a stooge when alone and does NOT depend only on the timer delay. I agree with Wynn, our E systems are extremely reliable, BUT we should never think they are infallible. We should always think safety and have backups.

Regarding your question:

The procedure you outline is PERFECTLY within ALL the CL rules. You are correct in stating there is NO rule stating that your helper has to continue holding your plane after you have the control handle (and safety thong) in your hand AND give them the signal to release. I agree with you, your procedure is safer because it gets your helper out of the circle early ....... and it does look "cool". ;-)

I have been doing EXACTLY what you have outlined at every contest I have flown in. I do it here, even in the extremely conservative southwest without a problem. I have had several protests filed against my "electric" entry, but never for having my helper leave the circle after my signal but before motor start.

When flying in this ultra conservative (if it ain't covered with tissue, poison paint and use a felon fox, then it should be banned! ;-) area, I have learned to ALWAYS have a printed copy of the AMA CL and CLPA rules with me when flying my electric CL planes. They have been a big help, I have won all the protests against my electric planes. Once I had my printed copy of the rules thrown in my face with some very serious curse words when the protester did not agree with the written rules I showed him. I was really surprised at one large contest that the CD (a very nice guy) nor anyone else had a current copy of the rules when a protest came up. I'm very glad I had my copy, the only one at the contest. Yikes!

I am constantly amazed at how many long time CL flyers know very little about the CL rules. They either quote "urban legend rules" or quote rules from the last time they read the rule book, 1976 or??

We should all be very thankful for Roberts excellent forum and the "father" of our modern rules: Keith Thostle, for always being there to help us all understand what the rules REALLY say.

I hope this answers your question.

Regards,

Mark Scarborough · « **Reply #4 on:** July 23, 2010, 12:00:51 AM »

While this may be in the interest of safety or becauase its cool, keep in mind that with a slow windup of power, you could actually end up hurting your takeoff scores. I was recently corrected on my takeoff technique because I was staying on the ground TO LONG. I would be concerned that with the gradual wind up of the electric on soft start, you may end up going farther than the maximime 1/4 lap allowed for ground roll. Something to think about,,,,,

Gary Anderson · « **Reply #5 on:** July 23, 2010, 12:23:19 AM »

Thank you Rudy, you're correct should always have the rule book with ya. Its just interesting what comes up with our toys. When this was brought up to me I was like what?

?? It just didn't make sense to me?

? Its no big deal but I guess that's why we have rules. Ruby I'm having a blast with the electric set up. I have one in my Stiletto and I have one in a Strega and both pull better now than they ever have.

Mark the slow start on my electric motors, I still have to keep tight reins on the plane. The plane is just unbelievable when she starts and takes to the air.

Wynn, I'm sorry you didn't understand my post, you're correct no plane should be left unattended.

I appreciate all input, Thank you Gary (Rudy if ya around Fresno, come fly electric with us)

Wynn Robins · « **Reply #6 on:** July 23, 2010, 02:42:07 AM »

my mistake - skim reading whilst at work doesn't help.......

Lester Nicholson · « **Reply #7 on:** July 23, 2010, 04:07:43 AM »

Wynn - question - I noted that you posted at 0242 am- are you gettin up early or goin down late. Nick

Mike Anderson · « **Reply #8 on:** July 23, 2010, 06:12:25 AM »

Wynn is in New Zealand, so his early is our late. In fact, I think when it's tomorrow there, it's still yesterday here .. or something like that. Plus, their drains all go the wrong way.

Roger Anderson · « **Reply #9 on:** July 23, 2010, 07:41:42 AM »

Hey Rudy,

Good to see you posting again. I am also getting deep into electric with a Pathfinder, a T-Rex and soon a Strega. As Gary said, when you get a chance, come play with us.

Roger Anderson

Rudy Taube · « **Reply #10 on:** July 24, 2010, 04:23:03 AM »

Hi Roger and Gary,

I am very glad to see you guys are doing so well with ECL. I enjoyed our conversations about E power at last years contest. It looks like you both have come a long way with E power since then.
Your gracious hospitality last year was greatly appreciated. It was very nice of you guys to provide us with a wonderful practice site before the contest.

Are you guys still flying at that very nice church? I will definitely see you in Oct. at the GSC, in your backyard. I may take you up on your invite before then. Please send me an email
with your flying site address (so I can Mapquest it) and the days/times you fly. It is only a pleasant 240 mile drive away, it would be fun seeing you guys again and flying with ECL pilots.
I live a few miles from a town of over 10,000,000 people, and there is not one other ECL pilot among them!

It looks like this years GSC will have at least 10 ECL planes entered. The Nat's (AKA the North East Regionals) had only 5 this year. 2011 should have many more.

Regards,

William DeMauro · « **Reply #11 on:** July 24, 2010, 09:04:11 AM »

Gary and others,
I will outline this the way it was explained to me at the pilots meeting at Nats this year.
I was told that someone must be holding my plane until I had the safteythong and handle in my hands and signled them to leave. My motor did not have to be running.
I was also told that it would be acceptable for my helper to push the button to start the plane if I so chose.(I had a 30 sec delay and pushed my own start button.)
So basically once the plane is armed and the button pushed, its live and someone(pilot or helper) or something(stooge) should have control of the plane at all times. The plane is NEVER to be left armed and unrestrained or uncontrolled for even a second!!!!

Gary Anderson · « **Reply #12 on:** July 24, 2010, 11:06:15 AM »

Quote from: William DeMauro on July 24, 2010, 09:04:11 AM

Gary and others,
I will outline this the way it was explained to me at the pilots meeting at Nats this year.
I was told that someone must be holding my plane until I had the safteythong and handle in my hands and signled them to leave. My motor did not have to be running.
I was also told that it would be acceptable for my helper to push the button to start the plane if I so chose.(I had a 30 sec delay and pushed my own start button.)
So basically once the plane is armed and the button pushed, its live and someone(pilot or helper) or something(stooge) should have control of the plane at all times. The plane is NEVER to be left armed and unrestrained or uncontrolled for even a second!!!!

Thank you William, this is the way we see it. As long as someone has control of the plane that is all that is needed. The motor doesn't need to be running, once the pilot is ready (Handle in hand and safety thong on) there is no need for someone to hold the plane for the motor to start running. Great!! thanks again, Gary

Gary Anderson · « **Reply #13 on:** July 24, 2010, 11:21:11 AM »

Quote from: Rudy Taube on July 24, 2010, 04:23:03 AM

Hi Roger and Gary,

I am very glad to see you guys are doing so well with ECL. I enjoyed our conversations about E power at last years contest. It looks like you both have come a long way with E power since then.
Your gracious hospitality last year was greatly appreciated. It was very nice of you guys to provide us with a wonderful practice site before the contest.

Are you guys still flying at that very nice church? I will definitely see you in Oct. at the GSC, in your backyard. I may take you up on your invite before then. Please send me an email
with your flying site address (so I can Mapquest it) and the days/times you fly. It is only a pleasant 240 mile drive away, it would be fun seeing you guys again and flying with ECL pilots.
I live a few miles from a town of over 10,000,000 people, and there is not one other ECL pilot among them!

It looks like this years GSC will have at least 10 ECL planes entered. The Nat's (AKA the North East Regionals) had only 5 this year. 2011 should have many more.

Regards,

Hi Rudy, thank you for the help on the electric items. Roger is a old electrical engineer and is pretty sharp on this stuff (he's old, ha ha) I don't know anything about the set ups, they're all Roger's but he has got them flying very well. I had a gentlemen launch my plane yesterday and he was the same way, wouldn't let go of the plane until the motor came up to rpm's. I don't believe its really good to bench run the electric motors. We would enjoy your company at or off the field, we are a chartered club, PC Flyers. Address is 7172 N. Cedar Fresno Ca. We fly mostly on Sunday afternoon around two till dark and different days during the week. Some fly on Tuesday morning, some on Thursday morning some of Friday afternoon. If anyone wants to come play, call me at 559-299-1976 and I'm sure there would be a couple of guys that would love to play also. Thank you Gary

Walter Hicks · « **Reply #14 on:** August 01, 2010, 01:19:13 AM »

Gary,

I am one of the ones saying it is unsafe. I have witnessed a plane smoking and then crashed. It is not a safe practice to do this as many things can go wrong . We need to be extremely careful due to insurance reasons as well
as follow common safety practices. It only takes one incidence to loose fields injure people etc. If we are ever to error it should ALWAYS BE ON THE SAFETY SIDE. Walter Hicks

Rudy Taube · « **Reply #15 on:** August 01, 2010, 02:43:18 AM »

Hi Walter,

After reading my reply #3 do you still think it's unsafe? If the pilot has the handle and the safety thong attached properly AND gives the RELEASE signal, then were is the safety problem?

I don't understand where the "unsafe" part lives? I would be interested in hearing your explanation.

If our method is unsafe that means you are saying that we should never fly CL with a stooge? Yikes, that would be a bummer, I fly a lot with a stooge in a nearby park, I like it.

We have been safely doing it this way for thousands of trouble free flights. If there is a safety problem I would be interested in working on a solution. We have enough people shooting at ECL, If there is a problem I don't want to be feeding them any more ammunition! ;-)

Regards,

Walter Hicks · « **Reply #16 on:** August 01, 2010, 12:00:39 PM »

What I am saying is:

#1. In (my opinion )If I am going to error I will always error on the SAFETY side, read EXTRA careful.

#2. Having lost flying fields in the past , it is not fun

#3. There are common practices used in CL Stunt. I will choose to use those again to err on the side of safety.

#4. If others choose not to use the common safety practices in CL stunt then that is their business.

5. I have previously not made any comments as to this practice as I was not asked about it. When it was brought up in this forum I gave my views on the subject.

6. My opinion is based on flying CL Stunt in competitions since 1984.

7. So all that being said , WHY NOT BE EXTRA CAREFUL as it is very difficult to get and keep flying fields

? This hobby /sport has the potential for injuries /safety hazards(electric power included).

That is all I am going to say again people are very much entitled to do whatever they want to do. Opinion are just that what someone thinks .

Rudy Taube · « **Reply #17 on:** August 01, 2010, 05:41:33 PM »

Hi Walter,

I think we all agree with everything you said about safety being very important.

But I still don't understand what is "unsafe" about our procedure in launching our E planes? Or using a stooge to launch our ECL or Wet powered planes?

Please tell us the specific step that is less safe than you think it should be. If there is an improvement to be made in safety I am sure we all would like to make it. Please help us by pointing out our mistake.

You do understand that everyone on this thread has agreed that it is unsafe to just depend on the timer delay before launch, that we need to use a human stooge or a mechanical stooge until the pilot has full and safe control of the plane in the center of the circle. No one has advocated leaving the plane unattended while walking out to the center of the circle. Technically this can be done, but we have all agreed that it is not the safest way to launch.

I think everyone using E power is very safety conscious. If there are any problems our emergency shutoffs are much faster, easier and safer than any Wet system shutoff. Almost all of us are using at least two, sometimes three, backup ways to safely shut down our systems. Almost everyone now uses a very positive "safety plug" to insure there is ZERO chance of an unscheduled start before or after the flight. (one of my goals is to get this "safety plug" use up to 100% ;-)

I think it was Gary who wisely pointed out that having the helper back way away from the plane AFTER the pilot has the handle and thong and gives the launch signal, is a much SAFER method than having the helper stay with the plane until the motor starts running then lets go. It only takes 5 seconds until that plane comes around again. That is a 4 pound pointy object traveling at 55+ MPH at head hight. I have seen many times when the helper is gathering up the glo igniter, starter, prime bottle, etc. then barley gets out of the way in time, especially when the pilot does not back up adequately. This is much less safe than the way we do it.

You are a very experienced and knowledgeable modeler, I have read many of your informative posts and would like to learn from you. Please help us by explaining specifically where we can improve our safety. TIA :-)

Regards,

Darkstar1 · « **Reply #18 on:** August 02, 2010, 05:45:03 PM »

Here's my 2 cent's worth on the subject. I think that no matter how It's powered or how Its launched some form of control should be exercised at all times. Don't rely on that delay to work 100% of the time or how that short burst works after pushing the start button would react. I was flying one morning with a converted Saturn with the RSM system.
Unlike what I'm using now the 2 second burst from the Hacker motor moves the airplane mighty quick. I happend to forget to hook up the stooge and after pushing the start button the model ran into my leg. I was able 2 stop the model & disarm the battery only because the delay worked.The prop chewed my pants pretty good but didn't cut my leg at all

Roger Anderson · « **Reply #19 on:** August 02, 2010, 09:53:38 PM »

I think some folks are losing the point here. Everyone agrees that we should launch in as safe a manner as possible. The issue here is who's control does the plane have to be in. I will give and example, there are a couple of folks at our field the believe the electric plane must be held by an individual until the motor reaches full RPM and only then can that plane be released. Others of us believe that once the pilot has the handle in his hand and the safety thong on it is OK for the pilot to signal the person holding the airplane to release it even if it is not yet running. Some of us believe that it is actually saver for the launch person to release the plane before it reaches full RPM. My opinion is that it is always safer for an individual to move away from a prop and aircraft before it begins moving as long as the pilot has gained full control of that craft. If you take the other opinion of holding on to the craft until full RPM is reached, it seems to follow that those folks would object to the use of a mechanical stooge for any aircraft. I think that everyone wants to be safe but there is a differance of opinion on which method is safer. Frankly, I think we should pay attention to the procedures allowed at the Nationals this year as described previously and follow the established procedures as our guideline.

I hope no one takes offense to my opinion here. I value everyone's view point and I believe that some debate is healthy for our sport.

Best wishes and good safe flying,

Roger Anderson

Howard Rush · « **Reply #20 on:** August 03, 2010, 02:31:43 PM »

It takes awhile to convert our minds. We all (except maybe Igor) agree that the airplane should be held at at least one end of the lines before takeoff. The reason usually cited is that a person could fall down or forget where he's going on his way to the handle. Another reason is that a microcontroller-controlled electric motor can start unpredictably. One should assume that a computer can jump to any place in its program at any time. When an IC engine prop stops, that engine won't start again. Not so with an electric motor. The airplane should be restrained after the flight as well as before the flight. If nobody's available to retrieve the airplane and pull the plug before the pilot releases the handle, he should anchor the thong to the ground while he walks to the airplane.

Roger Anderson · « **Reply #21 on:** August 03, 2010, 04:54:06 PM »

Good point Howard, you are the first one to address the end of the flight.

Roger Anderson

Rudy Taube · « **Reply #22 on:** August 03, 2010, 07:53:44 PM »

Hi Howard,

I'm with Roger, I'm glad you brought this up.

The photo in the next post shows my "Handle Stooge". I wrote about it a few years ago, with photos, in the E-Stunt section of SN, and here on SH.

I wanted a unit that worked on both pavement (the two nice paved CL sites in our little town) and on the grass of my local park. It had to serve two functions:

1. The important one you mentioned. Securing at least one end of the handle at all times. It does this one very well. It has two layers of heavy 12" x 12" tile epoxied to the bottom of a square piece of wooden shelf. This also has a rubber bottom to help on the pavement. It would prevent a TO even at full power. I also place the down line on top when attaching the handle.

2. It works perfectly as a "Handle Stooge" replacing the Human Stooge that usually holds the handle after the flight so the pilot can walk the plane back to the pit while holding the lines taught and high above the grass/weeds, or those pesky little line bending attached stones on pavement. The photo shows my prototype, it worked so well I never got around to making a cleaner looking unit. (Plus I am very lazy! ;-)

Howard, you were the inspiration for this unit. Three years ago I saw your "way cool" wind sock fishing pole. That got me thinking, so I made a telescoping windsock using the above base. It worked well, you saw it at last years GSC. I then made the above stooge off the same base. .... Thanks

BTW: This unit is fully take-apart and fits in a small carrying case.

Rudy Taube · « **Reply #23 on:** August 03, 2010, 08:46:14 PM »

"Handle Stooge"

Igor Burger · « **Reply #24 on:** August 04, 2010, 01:08:54 AM »

Quote from: Howard Rush on August 03, 2010, 02:31:43 PM

We all (except maybe Igor) agree that the airplane should be held at at least one end of the lines before takeoff.

:-) ... I did not want jump to this thread, but I see my name here so I see I must write something. I fully agree that someone should keep it all the time, but since I practice alone, and since I do my software myself and since I know what is happening inside, I can well live with system as I do it myself. And I am not going co convince anyone to do it my way. R/C pilots also do not have helper keeping model before start and if the trottle fails, then all other fails and they cannot land "when it starts alone".

But anyway, during last WC I saw 2 incidents related to electric powertrain.

1/ A flyyer hit the grass by prop, model looked it will make big hole in the ground, so he decided to put handle on ground and try to catch the model to save regulator from overheating, or battery to blow up or something like that. That was clear mistake of human mind of hlepers, flyer etc.

2/ pilot having helper keeping model went to handle, but he had too short time to start. But we now newly use safety straps and so he did not get handle fully attached, motor started, and heleper released the model ... another crash. Clear error os helper.

So in my eyes, the system of timer, regulator and all its safety routines inside is far safer than any helper or stooge. Additinally, I rememeber many many bad starts from grass while I flew IC engines, but almost nill with slowly starting electric. So I decide not to allow helper keep my model during start.

So MY menaing is to start on timer, which has delay long enough to walk to handle, and in emergency also back (means very close to 1min) and to have helper to stand close to solve troubles like prop in ground or keep it BEFORE start in strong wind. And clear - it is armer weapon, never poit it to public, alwas start to free place, do not leave it on ground connected to battery atc. It needs experience, there are 1000 details which can improve safety, and until you have that experience, it is necessary to have helper and not to kill someone or damage something.

Howard Rush · « **Reply #25 on:** August 04, 2010, 03:16:22 PM »

But whom can you blame when you do a bad takeoff?

Igor Burger · « **Reply #26 on:** August 04, 2010, 11:17:13 PM »

Grasshoppers

Rudy Taube · « **Reply #27 on:** August 04, 2010, 11:59:58 PM »

Howard, you may have met your match! ...... Well done Igor, Perfect!

The Jive team may have to be expanded to three?

Paul Walker · « **Reply #28 on:** August 09, 2010, 01:23:23 PM »

So in my eyes, the system of timer, regulator and all its safety routines inside is far safer than any helper or stooge. Additinally, I rememeber many many bad starts from grass while I flew IC engines, but almost nill with slowly starting electric. So I decide not to allow helper keep my model during start.

So MY menaing is to start on timer, which has delay long enough to walk to handle, and in emergency also back (means very close to 1min) and to have helper to stand close to solve troubles like prop in ground or keep it BEFORE start in strong wind. And clear - it is armer weapon, never poit it to public, alwas start to free place, do not leave it on ground connected to battery atc. It needs experience, there are 1000 details which can improve safety, and until you have that experience, it is necessary to have helper and not to kill someone or damage something.
[/quote]

In the US, the rules governing this are about to change. This year before our Nationals, the AMA issued a safety ruling specifically not allowing what you are describing. I suspect the FAI will follow soon. I understand what you say, however, we need not risk the safety of other people on the field if "something unexpected" happens. As long as someone holds your plane until you reach the handle, then once you grasp the handle they can then walk away from the plane, and you can takeoff as described.

Paul Walker

Igor Burger · « **Reply #29 on:** August 09, 2010, 02:06:19 PM »

1/ I agree, that is why I wrote someone should be close

( even whole R/C world does it without keeper and noone things it is danger.)

2/ And I am NOT advocate of such starting.

I wrote something else in that post - there are many much more danger things happening regularly and noone care about it for exaple - never let people to be in prop disc area, but who takes care of that? ... even on top contest like WC flown on bad grass where we saw several broken props on models starting just front of judges face and carbon blades flying in the air ... just compare how many times electric model started earlier and how many broken props we had

It just seems to me that we are trying solve something what we do not understand because it is new (once again, it is good to keep unknow as safe as possible - I completaly agree), just to feel that we do something good and safe, exactly like battle with spinner radius which must be 120degreed 5mm round while 90 degrees is already danger (I also agree but I know that it does not make real difference), but we have really danger things unsolved just beacause we learnt to live with them. And I will completaly and this time wery happy agree also with solution of them :-)

Larry Wong · « **Reply #30 on:** August 09, 2010, 02:33:49 PM »

OK try this out, if the pilot has the handle and ready for flight, 1. electric plane is on timer mode, but not running.
2. IC plane pilot has controls and ready for flight,the only diffrent is RPM then what is the right time to let go of the plane ?

Rudy Taube · « **Reply #31 on:** August 09, 2010, 03:22:32 PM »

Hi Paul,

Thank you for the safety update. I assume that the safety ruling still allows us to use a mechanical stooge in place of the human stooge? I hope they worded it so that this is clear. I'm worried that an innocent use of the word "person" or "someone" will cause confusion? ...... I'm glad the AMA took this action.

Paul Walker · « **Reply #32 on:** August 09, 2010, 05:58:13 PM »

Quote from: Larry Wong on August 09, 2010, 02:33:49 PM

OK try this out, if the pilot has the handle and ready for flight, 1. electric plane is on timer mode, but not running.
2. IC plane pilot has controls and ready for flight,the only diffrent is RPM then what is the right time to let go of the plane ?

Either time is acceptable, as long as the pilot has their hand in the handle. It is then safe.

However, this discussion is about the time when neither the pilot nor the helper has control of the aircraft, with the timer engaged. That is the real danger time, as we know the motor WILL start running regardless what the pilot does, or doesn't do.

And as Howard points out, any time the battery is in the aircraft and the connections are in place between the battery and the ESC, then there is danger.

Paul Walker

Igor Burger · « **Reply #33 on:** August 10, 2010, 01:33:21 AM »

Quote from: Paul Walker on August 09, 2010, 05:58:13 PM

any time the battery is in the aircraft and the connections are in place between the battery and the ESC, then there is danger.

also if ESC switch is off