Author Topic: LETS TALK ELECTRIC (Read 4150 times)

Kerry Ewart · « **on:** July 24, 2006, 09:01:37 PM »

I have seen a lot of comments about the costs ect,But all that aside for a minute and talk shop.Costs are going to be higher initally i know.

If i was going to set up an electric say 630+ sqin and 55-60 oz bracket ,Is there a good base setup to start with and is there stuff to stay clear of.
I have seen this motor advertised "Brushless Outrunner XM3520-7" the claim out put to power a 40 to a light 60 size plane???.
Everyone will have different ideas so lets here them.

frank carlisle · « **Reply #1 on:** July 24, 2006, 09:54:12 PM »

i wish i could give you a responsible answer. I [put together an electric ARF Smoothie but have no other experience with electrics. Guys will post but if you aren't an electric genious it'll whiz right overhead. I have a dvd of the GSCB electric seminar. it features bob hunt extoling the virtues of electrics. Mike Palko does pretty much the same and Dean Pappas says stuff and draws charts, all of which I found very confusing.
If you want it- you can have it.

Kerry Ewart · « **Reply #2 on:** July 25, 2006, 01:24:27 AM »

Thanks frank i would not mind a copy.But i am in aussi.

Dennis Moritz · « **Reply #3 on:** July 25, 2006, 05:19:40 AM »

There are formulas that Mike Palko uses for calculating motor/battery/speed controller set up based on weight of the model. He's referred to these formulas and laid them out on one of the forums. I didn't follow the math either, even tho the math doesn't appear that complicated. Tuning is usually necessary, as I've observed. The speed controlled needs to be matched with the motor, there are software issues. Final adjustment with prop and speed controller is also necessary. Perhaps Mike will look in here. Although a lot of different combos work, different components need to be matched up and coordinated. Not a straight ahead buy this and that situation. Also the technology seems to be evolving quickly. A further complication. Mike, for instance, had a P40 Arf he wired up before Brodak, an Arf he didn't have time to test out before the contest. There turned out to be an incompatibility in the electronics. Couldn't get the motor to run longer than four and a half minutes.

Ron King · « **Reply #4 on:** July 25, 2006, 02:47:44 PM »

Kerry,

Most of those advertising claims are based on RC performance of course.

The specs you set out are basically the same size as Bob Hunt's Genesis Extreme (620 squares, 56 ounces RTF). Bob powers his ships with an AXI 2826/10, which is the same motor Frank Carlisle used in his Smoothie and is the same motor I use in my electric ships. This motor puts out the same power as a strong 40 glow engine and it works great in planes like my profile Cardinal and Roadrunner. You can Google this motor and get the specs to compare with stuff available down under. We are all running Castle 45 AMP controllers and 3700 - 4200 mah batteries.

BUT - it looks like I may have finally reached the edge of the envelope for that motor with my latest project. I'm not happy to spend six months building something and discover it's not working properly, but that's what I've done and that's where I am right now.

Like they say, "Life happens." or better yet, "Life is what happens while we are busy making other plans."

I've attached a picture of the latest. It's pretty (650 square inches and 61 ounces) and is currently hanging on my workshop wall. I think I'll find a decent enough motor and battery combo for it eventually.

Take care,

frank carlisle · « **Reply #5 on:** July 25, 2006, 05:48:44 PM »

Ron,
was it the weight that killed it?

RandySmith · « **Reply #6 on:** July 25, 2006, 07:20:16 PM »

Quote from: Ron King on July 25, 2006, 02:47:44 PM

Kerry,

Most of those advertising claims are based on RC performance of course.

The specs you set out are basically the same size as Bob Hunt's Genesis Extreme (620 squares, 56 ounces RTF). Bob powers his ships with an AXI 2826/10, which is the same motor Frank Carlisle used in his Smoothie and is the same motor I use in my electric ships. This motor puts out the same power as a strong 40 glow engine and it works great in planes like my profile Cardinal and Roadrunner. You can Google this motor and get the specs to compare with stuff available down under. We are all running Castle 45 AMP controllers and 3700 - 4200 mah batteries.

BUT - it looks like I may have finally reached the edge of the envelope for that motor with my latest project. I'm not happy to spend six months building something and discover it's not working properly, but that's what I've done and that's where I am right now. Like they say, "Life happens." or better yet, "Life is what happens while we are busy making other plans."

I've attached a picture of the latest. It's pretty (650 square inches and 61 ounces) and is currently hanging on my workshop wall. I think I'll find a decent enough motor and battery combo for it eventually.

Take care,

Hi Ron

I have all these motors here and sell them, test them etc. and Actually The AXI does not put out near the power of a strong 40, It is the same power as a 28 to 32 engine, so you really should plan to use it in an airplane of 600 or under sq. inches and not over 50 ounces for optimum performance. A PA 40 for example has NO problem pulling a 65 ounce 700 SQ in IMPACT or SV-11.
You have to remember that your running the AXI full tilt boogie , not loafing like a IC 40 So you will be much happier if you stick to a smaller-lighter design that is easy to pull

Regards
Randy

frank carlisle · « **Reply #7 on:** July 25, 2006, 08:19:00 PM »

John Paris and I both built ARF Smoothies. Mine with an AXI his with a Fox. John's flies better. The power plant made the difference. We took turns flying each others planes. So we could see the differance.

Ron King · « **Reply #8 on:** July 26, 2006, 05:59:39 AM »

Quote from: RandySmith on July 25, 2006, 07:20:16 PM

I have all these motors here and sell them, test them etc. and Actually The AXI does not put out near the power of a strong 40, It is the same power as a 28 to 32 engine, so you really should plan to use it in an airplane of 600 or under sq. inches and not over 50 ounces for optimum performance. A PA 40 for example has NO problem pulling a 65 ounce 700 SQ in IMPACT or SV-11.
You have to remember that your running the AXI full tilt boogie , not loafing like a IC 40 So you will be much happier if you stick to a smaller-lighter design that is easy to pull

Regards
Randy

Randy,

Thanks for the info. I won't quibble about the power output. I should have said "an unpiped 40". My AXI motors fly the profile Cardinal and profile Roadrunner at 75 to 80 percent power and do a great job, which is how I calculated my answer. I developed my own timer/controller and it's programmed to gradually increase the power to the motor as the batteries drain.

These airframes are in the 580 - 600 square inch range and my flying weights are at 50 ounces. At this size and weight, the AXI works very well. You and I are in violent agreement here.

However - my whole reason for trying this has been to see if we can replace the IC engines in our "full size" stunt ships. To do that, I had to spend the time and effort to build a bigger plane and see how it worked. The new Alouette-E flies very well in "stunt heaven" conditions, but it does not have enough extra grunt to pull through heavier weather.

I'm sure there are better motors on the market, but I don't have the time or resources to experiment right now. The Alouette-E looks good hanging on the wall and I'll pull it back down this winter when I'm looking for something to do. My calculations tell me it will take a 5 cell Li-Po pack to pull a 64 ounce SV-11 size bird with the proper motor.

PS - I am currently building one of my regular Alouettes for your 75.

Thanks,

Ron

Ron King · « **Reply #9 on:** July 26, 2006, 06:12:50 AM »

Quote from: frank carlisle on July 25, 2006, 05:48:44 PM

Ron,
was it the weight that killed it?

Frank,

Weight (wing loading and power loading), plus drag (all forms).

The plane flies fine in nice calm conditions, but has no margin for error.

It also behaves differently power-wise. It drains more power at the start of the flight, then seems to settle down. I will have to reprogram my computer chip to account for this characteristic and just haven't had the time.

I'll burn some new chips later this year and see how it works.

Ron

EDIT - clarification

frank carlisle · « **Reply #10 on:** July 26, 2006, 11:18:38 AM »

I'm in a holding pattern over here Ron- electrically speaking. I'm waiting for some one to make new developments. I can't. Don't know enough.
My Smoothie is a great sport plane but I can't make headway with it at contests.
I'm planning on building something this winter and so far I figure I need a bit more wing, less drag and no more weight.

I'm stumped.

If anyone can sort this out I'm sure you can.

Ron King · « **Reply #11 on:** July 26, 2006, 03:40:06 PM »

Quote from: frank carlisle on July 26, 2006, 11:18:38 AM

I'm in a holding pattern over here Ron- electrically speaking. I'm waiting for some one to make new developments. I can't. Don't know enough.
My Smoothie is a great sport plane but I can't make headway with it at contests.
I'm planning on building something this winter and so far I figure I need a bit more wing, less drag and no more weight.

I'm stumped.

If anyone can sort this out I'm sure you can.

I appreciate the kind words. I'm holding at the present because I just don't have time to create more control programs. I'm busy at work with my latest research project and don't have as much time for fun.

I think the Alouette-E will fly okay - eventually. I am not pushing that AXI too hard right now (currently running at 77 - 81 percent), so I still have some "wiggle" room and think I may be able to make it work. I have a dozen flights on it and the level lap speeds are okay, but I seem to be draining too much energy in maneuvers. The plane is heavier and will need a little more grunt from my battery pack. That is a "simple" matter of reprogramming the controller, but that's also the most work.

I remember it took me about thirty programs before I got the Cardinal to run right and I don't have the time or energy to deal with that sort of test regimen right now. It's too hot.

Speaking of heat - the early flights showed that I got the cooling slots and vents set up just right. In 100 degree weather, the batteries sit at 120 degrees and the aft end of the motor was 130. Both temps are well within spec.

I'll do more work later, but I agree with you about the fun with big IC ships. My .76 pipe ships are almost impervious to weather. If I can stand up in it, they can fly in it.

Take care,

Ron

Walter Hicks · « **Reply #12 on:** July 27, 2006, 10:39:25 PM »

Ron ,

I have an E Flite 46 that is supposed to work with 14.8V 4200 lipo. However it needs a 60 amp ESC which I also have. You are welcome to test it out in you plane as
it is going to be a good long while before I get around to installing it. i would really like for someone who knew what they were doing to test the set up out.
Again you are more than welcome to test out the E Flite with the Castle Creations ESC. It is supposed to be equivalnet to a glow 46. Are you interested?
It is supposed to

frank carlisle · « **Reply #13 on:** July 29, 2006, 04:04:57 AM »

walter too bad you are so far from detroit. i'd take the electric stuff out of my Smoothie and lend you the plane.

Ron King · « **Reply #14 on:** July 29, 2006, 02:29:50 PM »

Quote from: Walter Hicks on July 27, 2006, 10:39:25 PM

Ron ,

I have an E Flite 46 that is supposed to work with 14.8V 4200 lipo. However it needs a 60 amp ESC which I also have. You are welcome to test it out in you plane as
it is going to be a good long while before I get around to installing it. i would really like for someone who knew what they were doing to test the set up out.
Again you are more than welcome to test out the E Flite with the Castle Creations ESC. It is supposed to be equivalnet to a glow 46. Are you interested?

Walter,

Thanks for the offer. I am currently working on something in that power range and have been doing some testing with a Castle 60 amp ESC.

It will probably be around Thanksgiving before I get serious with this.

Ron

Dean Pappas · « **Reply #15 on:** August 09, 2006, 02:53:55 PM »

Hi Gang,
Hello Ron.
For your 60+ ounce ship, you're going to want to run m ore power. I'd say something in the mid 500-Watt neighborhood will do. The motor will weigh at leat 8 ounces rather than the 6 1/4 of the AXI 2826. I would look at the Plettenberg Orbit 25-10 and 25-12 first.
You will be pulling right at 40 Amps in flight from a 4-cell battery, and while your existing Casstle Phoenix 45 will do this easily (Castle overbuild their stuff bya bunch) you will need a 5-plus amp-hour battery, like the Thunder-Power 5300. I'm pretty sure it'll weigh 16 ounces.
Depending on whether you use the 10-turn (Kv=930) or the 12-turn version of the motor (770) you'll be looking at a 12-6 or 12-7 and governed back a bit for lap time using the helicopter governor setting, probably on the HI RPM range.
While the AXIs are inexpensive and good, there is a gap in their product line and the next size up from your existing motor is an 11-ounce 4120 series. Oh well.

best regards,
Dean Pappas

Larry Wong · « **Reply #16 on:** August 11, 2006, 08:05:41 PM »

Hay any one know how to program a Castle 45? I tryed an can't get to work.
I down load the link program from Castle and did what the instructions said and all I get is that it's not finding the esc . I sent it back they checked it out and sent it back saying it's OK ..... I plug link to esc and USB to P C , no program comes up , Do I have to also plug motor and Batt. pack before it will work?

Ron King · « **Reply #17 on:** August 12, 2006, 04:59:08 AM »

Quote from: Larry Wong on August 11, 2006, 08:05:41 PM

Hay any one know how to program a Castle 45? I tryed an can't get to work.
I down load the link program from Castle and did what the instructions said and all I get is that it's not finding the esc . I sent it back they checked it out and sent it back saying it's OK ..... I plug link to esc and USB to P C , no program comes up , Do I have to also plug motor and Batt. pack before it will work?

It depends on which Castle 45 ESC you have. If it's the Phoenix 45, it should work fine.

If it's the Phoenix 45 HV (High Voltage) ESC, you need to add a battery pack. The HV series do not have a BEC and require separate receiver batteries. I do not recommend the HV for CL work; it's not necessary.

Hope this helps,

Ron

Larry Wong · « **Reply #18 on:** August 13, 2006, 06:57:46 AM »

Thanks Ron
I looked at the Pheonix 45 and notice that it said no BEC on it . this is all new to me .

Thanks

Ron King · « **Reply #19 on:** August 14, 2006, 04:48:55 PM »

Quote from: Larry Wong on August 13, 2006, 06:57:46 AM

Thanks Ron
I looked at the Pheonix 45 and notice that it said no BEC on it . this is all new to me . Thanks

You must have the HV (High Voltage) version. It does not have a BEC (Battery Elimination Circuit) and this forces you to run a regular receiver battery in your plane. The HV versions were developed for those R/C folks who really want to pull some power and Castle decided they should keep a separate receiver battery in their aircraft for safety.

In order to program and/or fly with this ESC, you will have to get a small 4.8 volt receiver battery. Plug it directly into the three wire plug on the ESC and you should be able to program it just fine. For flight, you will have to cut this battery into the plus and minus leads between the timer and the ESC.

It's easier done than written.

Hope this helps.

Ron