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Author Topic: interesting Discovery  (Read 2362 times)

Offline Alan Resinger

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interesting Discovery
« on: April 06, 2015, 08:00:17 AM »
For the upcoming competition season Chris Cox and I built new Bob Hunt Crossfires.  These are the 4th edition for both of us and since the first ones built for the 2012 season we've made some modifications to Bob's original design.  The 2015 version was dubbed the Mk III Crossfire XL and has gone through the most changes with a straight flap hinge line, 30 sq. in. increase in wing area (to accommodate heavier batteries, 6S vs. 5S), longer tail moment, and a decrease in stab/elev. aspect ratio.  All the changes have proven to be beneficial to performance.  We also installed Igor Burger's active timer motor controls.
After getting the ship fairly well trimmed without the active controls turned on, I slowly started to add regulation to the power system.  I quickly discovered that my sensing unit needed to be moved rearward from the point I had originally picked which was just aft of the CG.  Regulation was now starting to become apparent but for some reason mine seems slightly amiss. The regulation while slight at the time, seemed backward.  I talked to Mr. Walker and we went over settings and he made some suggestions.  Further flight testing and slightly increasing the boost showed little improvement.  Chris was starting to add some regulation to his ship now that he had the trim somewhat figured out and all was going well.  His regulated as it should and he was slowly working toward a higher value.  I was out flying by myself last week and increased the regulation even more and pretty much convinced myself that the unit was working backward.  I called Paul again after driving home from the field and pondering the problem.  My first question to him was "do you think that flying clockwise as I do, cause a problem with the sensing unit in Igor's system?".  He said that he wasn't sure how the units were programmed but didn't think it would make any difference.  He did say that my thoughts might have some merit.  I emailed Igor and ask him about the problem thinking maybe I got a unit that had gyros with the incorrect polarity or something.  I told him that I was thinking about putting the unit in upside down.  He answered back quickly with lots of smiley faces saying that yes, I had to install the unit upside down due to my clockwise flight operation.  He said his model would do the exact same thing if he took off, did a half loop and then did a backward pattern, starting from inverted flight.  Reinstalling the unit upside down, and now it performs perfectly.  So for all the hundreds of clockwise flyers out there, disregard Igor's instructions and put the sensor in upside down. :-)))))     

Offline Bob Hudak

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Re: interesting Discovery
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2015, 09:09:06 AM »
That gotta drive people on the other side of the world nuts!! LL~
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: interesting Discovery
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2015, 10:13:06 AM »
If it uses more than one sensor then you need to turn it upside down the correct way.  Wires front just like "regular" (if I remember Igor's pictures correctly -- believe Igor if he says different) and whichever face points out on an ordinary rotation plane should point out on a weirdo reverse direction plane (we should give you negative points for going backwards, Alan -- you could be the first control line stunt pilot to break -590).

If it just uses the accelerometer, then just make the "out" side face out.  If Igor wanted to go to the (probably considerable) trouble, he could stick a big arrow on each one and the directions could just say "make it point out".
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Igor Burger

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Re: interesting Discovery
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2015, 10:33:44 AM »
:- ))))

Alan has landing gears on opposite side of the model :-P

Yes, I described mounting for left flying model, if it flies right, it is like we fly reversed flight, so it has be simply upside down :- ))) ... well looks like I must add it to description.

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: interesting Discovery
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2015, 10:44:06 AM »
He answered back quickly with lots of smiley faces saying that yes, I had to install the unit upside down due to my clockwise flight operation.  He said his model would do the exact same thing if he took off, did a half loop and then did a backward pattern, starting from inverted flight.  Reinstalling the unit upside down, and now it performs perfectly.  So for all the hundreds of clockwise flyers out there, disregard Igor's instructions and put the sensor in upside down. :-)))))      

You need to rotate the sensor package 180 degrees about the X (fuselage) axis from the orientation normal people use.  That makes the Y-axis (spanwise) sensor point in the correct direction relative to the center of the circle.  If you merely turn a normal airplane upside down, the orientation of the Y-axis sensor relative to the center of the circle doesn't change.  Likewise, if there is a Z-axis angular rate sensor (gyro) in Igor's package, you'd need to rotate the package 180 degrees about the X axis to get it to work correctly in your airplane.  A normal airplane will rotate to the left relative to the Z (up-and-down) axis in either upright or inverted flight; yours will rotate to the right.

If the wires from the sensor are in the front, an X-axis sensor will point in the correct direction for either a clockwise or counterclockwise airplane.  

(written before Igor's and Tim's posts, but posted anyhow)
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: interesting Discovery
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2015, 11:12:28 AM »
Yes, I described mounting for left flying model, if it flies right, it is like we fly reversed flight, so it has be simply upside down :- ))) ... well looks like I must add it to description.

I suggest, from my experiences with writing what I thought was perfectly clear user's documentation and then seeing the monstrosities that people have created from my ambiguities, that you make sure that you specify what sort of upside-down it needs to be.

Perhaps Alan could take a picture of his installation, with an arrow pointing to the outside of the circle (or the inside), that you could use to clarify the installation.

BTW: can your regulator be used on a control-line quadcopter?  Stunt is sorely lacking in innovation, in my opinion.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Igor Burger

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Re: interesting Discovery
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2015, 12:31:51 PM »
well I needed 4 years of development just to find out WHAT TO CONTROL at all ... the rest was easy, little mathmat, little physics, little programming etc ... so answer is yes, it can control quadcopter with some change in sofware ... if someone is able to say WHAT it really has to do :- ))))))))))))))))

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: interesting Discovery
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2015, 01:09:20 PM »
well I needed 4 years of development just to find out WHAT TO CONTROL at all ... the rest was easy, little mathmat, little physics, little programming etc ... so answer is yes, it can control quadcopter with some change in sofware ... if someone is able to say WHAT it really has to do :- ))))))))))))))))

Why, after the addition of a bellcrank with a position readout it has to be able to do the pattern under the pilot's command, of course.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: interesting Discovery
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2015, 05:25:41 PM »
Tim, I think you need to follow the example of the Jive Combat Team.  We use our Powers only to do good.
The Jive Combat Team
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: interesting Discovery
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2015, 05:52:43 PM »
Hey, doing stunt with quadcopters might bring more kids into the sport.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: interesting Discovery
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2015, 07:53:36 PM »
Tim,,, Tim ,, Tim,,
that will NOT get you another write up in Stunt news,,
For years the rat race had me going around in circles, Now I do it for fun!
EXILED IN PULLMAN WA
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Offline Bob Hudak

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Re: interesting Discovery
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2015, 05:55:04 AM »
Hey, doing stunt with quadcopters might bring more kids into the sport.

A 3 dollar Ringmaster would have them signing up on the flight sheet. Not!! We tried giving kids a plane to bring them into the hobby, they went back to MineCraft. Sorry for going off topic.
Bob
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