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Author Topic: Great Landings in Gov. Mode, for AMA CLPA only  (Read 1662 times)

Offline Rudy Taube

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Great Landings in Gov. Mode, for AMA CLPA only
« on: March 29, 2007, 12:14:36 AM »
HI Guys,

This only applies to those of us who fly (or if your like me: attempt to fly ;-) the AMA CLPA event, not FAI.

On the advice of Dean and Mike, I changed to Helli Hi/Gov mode on my CC. At 1st I hated the NO GLIDE, and NO Whipping to a spot landing because of the windmilling prop with NO power. I almost gave up on Gov. mode because of this very unpleasant landing trait.

As a WAG for a solution I changed the shutoff to a very soft, long cut off period (I don't remember the exact CC wording for this?). Now when the motor starts to shut down it takes about 1/2 lap to go from full power to windmilling.  After a few flights you can tell exactly when the shutdown begins. If you immediately start the decent and landing from level 5' flight you can get perfect "low power on" landings every time.
       It works just like full scale flying on landings. If pilots have the extra RWY available we can add a little power during the flair and kiss the RWY much more easily than with power off.

Now, if I can just get my 2 BLIP warning to work in Gov. mode, I will be a happy camper.  #^
« Last Edit: April 20, 2007, 02:35:39 PM by Rudy Taube »
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Alan Hahn

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Re: Great Landings in Gov. Mode, for AMA CLPA only
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2007, 08:20:00 AM »
I think it is interesting that the AMA competitions say nothing about the engine/motor being off for landing, only that the landing be smooth. The flight ends when the plane stops, so I guess the prop can be still turning.
If you have the JMP-2 timer, you could use the final flight speed to turn down the power in a nice linear way, over lets say 10 seconds or so.

Offline NED-088

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Re: Great Landings in Gov. Mode, for AMA CLPA only
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2007, 02:28:53 PM »
OK boys, rub it in some more  :'( ;)
'If you think there's something about my English, you're right. I'm Dutch... '
But I DO play Stunt and I DO fly Bluegrass.

Offline phil c

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Re: Great Landings in Gov. Mode, for AMA CLPA only
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2007, 09:00:43 PM »
So get the F2B guys to be reasonable Ned-088.  Was reading some combat posts via email, and Laird Jackson pointed out that technical stuff like this is supposed to go through the technical committee(which happened for an ill-advised shutoff rule), but that under certain circumstances people can pack the vote if they try.  Maybe that's what happened here.  F2B would be well-advised to ignore the prop, just like AMA.  A more sensible approach might be to require the ground roll after touchdown to be no more than 1/2 lap.  Nobody could do that with the motor still running with any power.
phil Cartier

Alan Hahn

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Re: Great Landings in Gov. Mode, for AMA CLPA only
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2007, 09:28:53 PM »
Phil,
How long do you think it would be that the speed control could be programmed to reverse the prop direction to give reverse thrust! That could stop a plane in a hurry! :!

Offline Dean Pappas

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Re: Great Landings in Gov. Mode, for AMA CLPA only
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2007, 12:31:04 PM »
Hi Rudy,
You've got it. y1 Hunt and i have talked about doing this a million times, but since the "setup" was done for the Worlds last year, we had to leave it wait. Spring is coming and you should expect Bob to be descending under power at the NATs.
The blip works in governor mode. I think I had Bob programmed for a pair of 1/2 second long blips at roughly 1/2 the normal RPM.
It was audible and I'll bet you could finish a maneuver through it, though I think I'd bail out anyway.

All the Best,
Dean Pappas
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Offline Rudy Taube

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Re: Great Landings in Gov. Mode, for AMA CLPA only
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2007, 02:27:44 AM »
Hi Dean,

I can understand why you guys didn't want to change horses in the middle of the stream last year! ;-) ..... I'm sure you will like it when you get to try it this year.

I like Alan's excellent idea to make this even better, using the "final flight speed" mode to ramp down the speed during the final 10 seconds. After our contest on the 14th, I will experiment with my  JMP-2 timer and see if we can get a really nice slow down and landing. Right now my setup is working so well I am hesitant to tweak anything before the contest. Unlike you guys, I need a LOT more practice, and less experiments! ;-)

RE: my 2 blip warning. I can not get it to work. The JMP timer is sending the 2 blips to the controller (Will Moore's test unit shows me this clearly), but I think they are so short in duration, < 1 sec each with aprox. 1 sec between blips, that the Gov. mode is just smoothing them over?? I don't think we are able to change the blip program, it is on or off only.  I like the way the JMP gives this warning aprox.  7 sec before shutdown. Plenty of time to finish a manuver and get level. ........ I hope I can get it to work again? Any ideas out there????

It is a real pain not having any warning. I almost totaled my plane on the 1st Gov. flight with no blip warning, I was spoiled before! ;-) I now time my flights very accuratly, using two stop watches with count down timers with alarms. .... If "Necesity is the Mother of Invention", then "Paranoia is the Mother of Safety"!  HB~>

Bummer about your WX back there, I hope you guys get to fly soon. 
« Last Edit: March 31, 2007, 02:10:27 PM by Rudy Taube »
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Alan Hahn

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Re: Great Landings in Gov. Mode, for AMA CLPA only
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2007, 03:01:58 PM »
Rudy,
I bought a "Talking TImer" from a RC web site (Model Aviation advertiser) just so I could keep track of time---primarily I was training an RC beginner and was getting tired of making dead stick landings on his "beginner" P-51 (but that is another story). The timer is actually pretty neat. You can set a max time and it counts down. Anything less than 10 minutes gets an announcement every minute on the minute. At less than 1 minute, every 10 seconds gets an announcement, and then a 10-9-8-7.... countdown.
One thing I found interesting was how that first minute after signaling the judges flies by. That's why I plan on setting my JMP-2 timer to wait 30 seconds for the runup. No use wasting watts (what?) on the ground.
Anyhow knowing the time really helps with anticipating the electrics. On my SuperClown with the stock timer, the warning blip lasts long enough that I almost get to make a touch and go before it repowers up for the last lap! Knowing when it is coming is a big help!

Offline Rudy Taube

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Re: Great Landings in Gov. Mode, for AMA CLPA only
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2007, 01:59:02 PM »
Rudy,
I bought a "Talking TImer" from a RC web site (Model Aviation advertiser) just so I could keep track of time---primarily I was training an RC beginner and was getting tired of making dead stick landings on his "beginner" P-51 (but that is another story). The timer is actually pretty neat. You can set a max time and it counts down. Anything less than 10 minutes gets an announcement every minute on the minute. At less than 1 minute, every 10 seconds gets an announcement, and then a 10-9-8-7.... countdown.
One thing I found interesting was how that first minute after signaling the judges flies by. That's why I plan on setting my JMP-2 timer to wait 30 seconds for the runup. No use wasting watts (what?) on the ground.
Anyhow knowing the time really helps with anticipating the electrics. On my SuperClown with the stock timer, the warning blip lasts long enough that I almost get to make a touch and go before it repowers up for the last lap! Knowing when it is coming is a big help!

Hi Alan,

Thanks for the good suggestion. Can I get one with Nicole Kidman's voice?  #^ I know what you mean about R/C training, it is very easy to lose track of time. If I didn't have the automatic timer on my TX I'm sure I would have lost a few planes. ;-) Do you have the name of your "Talking timer" so I can order one? TIA

That is one of the things I like about the JMP timer. I always use a stooge, and find that setting the idle time for 30 sec. is about all you need to casually walk out to the handle and get ready for TO.  Your right, it saves some valuable power (about 9%) that is otherwise wasted. 

I'm glad your Electric Clown is working well. My hats off to Brodak for offering a package CL electric. :-)
Rudy
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Alan Hahn

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Re: Great Landings in Gov. Mode, for AMA CLPA only
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2007, 02:42:40 PM »
Rudy,
Just Google "Talking Timer". I couldn't remember where I bought mine, but the ones that come up look identical to the one I have (only the "Brand" name at the top seems to fluctuate. Anyway the cost I see from Amazon.com (Tel Timer) is listed at $12.95. Pretty sure I paid more than that!

I have been trying to adapt the JMP-2 timer and a Castle Creations Phoenix 35 on the Super Clown. First tried the JMP on the Brodak ESC, but it didn't manage to do anything. Not sure whether the Brodak stock timer/ESC is not using the RC pulse width system (it uses the same rc servo type connector) or whether the arming sequence on the Brodak ESC is special. I am guessing the latter. The Brodak really could use a pot to change the motor speed. Otherwise the only adjustment for flying speed is the prop choice. The Graupner 9-4 isn't a bad choice, but I would like to play around a little more.

Anyway I feel your pain on trying to use the JMP timer with the Phoenix ESC in governor mode. I was trying to program the prop rpm, but trying to keep track of "blips" is hard enough already (while holding onto the plane!) with the JMP-2 without having the ESC average the blip basically out. I guess I'll go back to using a servo to set the throttle %, then back to the plane to see if I am happy with the rpm. I would like to use a higher pitch prop than a 9-4, turning at a slower rpm, but with the plane flying at the same speed. Maybe that will be more efficient than an "egg-beater" spinning at 14krpm and I can get the power draw down. Really would like to use a smaller battery to save some weight with the SuperClown. I think it would help its flying. But basically I am just having fun fooling around.

Offline bob branch

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Re: Great Landings in Gov. Mode, for AMA CLPA only
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2007, 09:17:30 PM »
You guys really know how to kill a good self image, ya know that? I bought Frank Carlisle's electric smoothie. Converted it from 3 cell to 4 cell lipos, and programed in govenor mode. I waited after my first pattern for the 2 beeps... and waited. They never came. I was waiting for the plane to drop from the sky as I had read would happen. It didn't. The motor obviously started to wind down and I landed. One of the prettiest landings I ever did! Ditto the next 2 flights. I went home feeling so good about how well I was able to tame this beast of a problem of the free wheeling prop. Now you guys just shoot me down! Just when I was starting to feel good about myself.

 HB~> Bob Branch


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