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Author Topic: FMA 10S Charger, % left in tank ???  (Read 1085 times)

Offline Rudy Taube

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FMA 10S Charger, % left in tank ???
« on: September 11, 2008, 09:32:18 PM »
The FMA 10S Charger has many cool features. One of them is giving a % of fuel left in the tank reading before the charge starts. This gives us an indication of how much "fuel" we used during the flight.

A friend of mine shows only 9% left in the the tank after each flight. This means he used 91% of the battery capacity.

My question is: Does anyone know how FMA computes this %? My guess is that they are using some X % above ZERO capacity as their 0 % base. I hope so, if not I have NO explanation as to why my friend with the same system I have uses 3,867 mAh per flight and I use only 3150 mAh for the same flight time. That is a big difference. His plane weighs 8 oz more and he flys on 3' longer lines (about 7 mph faster?). IMHO: These are not enough to make up for the mAh used.

TIA for any help from you FMA 10S users. :-)

BTW: Their manual does not give any useful info on the formula they use. Their Tech dept person is at the Neat Fair for 5 days.

Regards,  H^^
Rudy
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Alan Hahn

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Re: FMA 10S Charger, % left in tank ???
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2008, 07:57:56 AM »
Rudy,
Can't actually shed any light, but the FMA 4s charger has the same feature. It nominally seems to be ok--at least I tend to get the same % left after most flights--depending a little on the wind-  more wind=more left in the battery.

My assumption is that the % is based on the voltage and maybe the internal resistance of the battery. The reason I say this is that I watched Peter Mazur charge his 4s3200 pack after a carrier flight. On my packs a ~15V starting voltage is claimed to be 20% capacity, but his voltage indicated another much lower value (9%).

Obviously these automatic chargers do some interesting math to figure out both this quantity and how many amps equals a 1C charge for an arbitrary pack. I am guessing the charge rate is based on how much resistance the charger detects---a high resistance would indicate a smaller pack.

Also note that as time goes on the capacity of these packs decreases--which I am guessing actually means the internal resistance goes up, so this fuel gauge should be giving the % of the current pack capacity, not the  value as sold. It would be interesting to know what they are doing, but I am guessing that these are proprietary calculations. In this knock-off era, telling people how they do it would simple spawn a host of me-too copy catters.

Alan Hahn

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Re: FMA 10S Charger, % left in tank ???
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2008, 08:02:44 AM »
By the way getting back to your friends setup, I assume that charge is what he is also putting back into the pack on the recharge?

It is hard to say how efficient we fly, but I would run his plane once with your data logger on the motor and see what it is claiming. As I recollect, drag goes as speed2, so 7mph more (out of 55mph lets say) would have 27% more drag than your plane. Plus being heavier means there is more to pull in the vertical. It all adds up. Also maybe his batteries are not in as great a shape as yours.

Offline Mike Anderson

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Re: FMA 10S Charger, % left in tank ???
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2008, 09:04:18 AM »
I have the FMA 4s - my observation (and from what I deduce, based on the various "White Papers" that FMA put out) is that the software bases a lot of its decisions on the slope of the voltage/time line.  The initial "fuel remaining" value is based on very little information, therefore and is not really very accurate.  If you sit and watch the charge rate and the "fuel" figures, it may start at 10% but in the first few minutes it will jump to, say 28%, then back down to 20%.

Also, the 1.0C and 1.4C charge rates are similarly figured out - it starts at a charge rate of perhaps 1/2A and if the voltage is going up too slowly, it will ramp up the charge rate.  In fact I have seen mine go from 1/2 A to 3 A, then back down to 1.5 amp then up to 1.75.  All the changes are at fairly regular intervals (one minute, if I remember) suggesting that the software is collecting data and making decisions based on that data.  It amazes me that it does eventually settle on the closest value - of the programmed in rates - and finishes off the charge at that rate.

I would be surprised if the 10s has much different in its software.

Mike A
Mike@   AMA 10086
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Offline Rudy Taube

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Re: FMA 10S Charger, % left in tank ???
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2008, 04:09:40 PM »
Thanks for the answers guys.

Alan,

I agree with you that the increase in speed will up the drag which will require more fuel. This power use issue is an interesting one. For ex: Will Moore has a similar size/wt. plane (his full fuse Cardinal, around 660? wa, 70 oz) on long lines with the same power system, and he used only around 3,200 mAh from his "fuel cell".  As you pointed out, there are many more variables "afoot" here.  n~  Our batteries get weak eventually, wind changes power use, extra maneuvers after pattern, airfoil shape, etc. etc.

I average about 44.4 mAh for every 5 sec of flight. This seems close to others with the same power package, even in different size planes. This is why I'm questioning my friends 91% use? I know that you and a few others are using much less power with smaller motors and batteries on light Nobler size aircraft. I hope we can get more info. on this mAh use from Igor and his awsome "E" performance at the WC. :-)

My friend is going to use another charger this weekend that will give the actual mAh used readout after charge. This should solve the mystry.  :!

Your right, I don't blame them for not giving out the "how we do it" info. on their formulas. International intellectual property protection is already difficult enough without giving the amoral thieves any help!  HB~>

Mike,

Your post is a reminder to us all that our fuel cells and their chargers are amazing pieces of chemistry/electronics. Like you pointed out, they do not charge in a linear way. I think it is part science, and part magic!  n~

Regards,  H^^
 
Rudy
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Offline Mike Anderson

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Re: FMA 10S Charger, % left in tank ???
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2008, 06:22:14 PM »
....

Your post is a reminder to us all that our fuel cells and their chargers are amazing pieces of chemistry/electronics. Like you pointed out, they do not charge in a linear way. I think it is part science, and part magic!  n~

Regards,  H^^
 

   ... That's why you don't want to let the magic smoke out ...     y1

  Oh - and one of the FMA white papers says that they have determined that charging regularly at 1.4C (as opposed to the widely circulated 1.0C) will NOT harm the cells - that is why the FMA's have the automatic 1.4C programmed in.  That is what I mostly use and I have had no charging issues nor any bad cells due to charge rate or discharge rate nor any packs with depressed capacity.  Everything that I (or we, being my regular flying buddies) use has been going strong all summer with most packs getting at least two flights per week.  The only cells we have managed to damage in this, our first full year of LiPo use, were all damaged physically - by crashing or by "metallic invasion" of the plastic envelope and shorting out the internal plates.

  Mike @

Mike@   AMA 10086
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Offline Dean Pappas

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Re: FMA 10S Charger, % left in tank ???
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2008, 02:04:39 PM »
Hello Rudy,
I sure can believe this difference.
I don't know exactly what fraction of a Stunt pattern's consumption is likely due to weight and what is drag, but some good estimates in pattern suggest that about 2/3 of the energy in the battery is used to gain altitude in an FAI schedule and one-third is used to fight drag.
Better knowledge of the weights of both ships and the actual lap times on both line lengths would allow us to calculate a decent estimate based on the above "split" in power.

I can only guess as to the weights of your two airplanes, but 8 out of 60 is just under 12%.

The drag increase is somewhere in the mid 20-s % as Alan calculates. I don't know about the 55 MPH initial speed.

2/3 *12  + 1/3 * 25 = 16%, while you are seeing about 22%.

How to calculate the split? Take a data-log from a good schedule with both battery voltage and current recorded.
Export the files to Excel, and identify each climb as compared to each dive. You'll need to add up or integrate, the energy used in the upside and the backside of each loop, then the upside and backside of each wingover. The difference in climbing and diving sides of each maneuver is twice the gravity component ... Yes, it was a pain!
 

Dean
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Alan Hahn

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Re: FMA 10S Charger, % left in tank ???
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2008, 02:38:54 PM »
This isn't quite as exhaustive (or exhausting!) as Dean proposes, but if you look at the orange trace (the power in watts) of one of my Nobler flights, the "average" value of the power during the level laps is about 260 watts (I'm looking at the first 4 laps after takeoff. The average power for that entire run was 284 watts (see the value given in the legend near the bottom of the plot) peaking at 425 Watts (looks like when the plane was released, but this is almost what I am seeing as a peak in the wingovers for example). But you can see the maneuvers are bringing the average up to only 284 watts from the level flight's 260 Watts. By the way, this data was from last May. I tend to be flying a bit slower these days with level flight powers in the 240 watt range.

I guess what I am getting at is that in CL Stunt, we are burning a lot if not most of our battery during the "boring" 2 laps between maneuvers. That's why I have been trying to optimize the power use during that period. I think a good prop is the way to go, since optimizing level laps tends to argue for a slower flight speed (for a given airframe). However our maneuvers depend a lot of the initial momentum going into the maneuver plus whatever help you can get from the prop as the airspeed drops. So you don't want level lap speeds too slow.

I think another point is to have an airframe that likes to penetrate. One reason I chose the Nobler (other than I had one available!) was that the airfoil looks "efficient" to me since it is thinner than most airfoils you see on modern stunters with their behemouth glow engines. These huge fat airfoils of modern stunt planes just look really draggy to me. Of course it doesn't matter with a 91 glow engine! However I am no real expert in aerodynamics. Also keeping the weight down also will minimize the need for large angle of attacks to generate the needed lift in those corner maneuvers, so some of the potential disadvantages of a narrower airfoil can be minimized.

In my new Vector ARC, I have left the leading edge as is, which is definitely pointier than the kit leading edge. We will see!


Offline Dean Pappas

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Re: FMA 10S Charger, % left in tank ???
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2008, 06:04:54 PM »
Hi Alan,
That sounds a lot like what Werwage said in the USA1 construction article many years ago!
Yes, we don't need to create wasteful drag to keep the downlines slow, so we can concentrate on making efficient airframes, rather than compensating for the shortcomings of the powertrain.

Stuff the likes of what Igor is working on will further improve the situation.
later,
Dean
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