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Author Topic: Flying in the wind...  (Read 1517 times)

Alan Hahn

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Flying in the wind...
« on: July 07, 2008, 07:54:00 PM »
We had our "Firecracker" contest yesterday, and the wind was blowing >10-15mph.

I was a little surprised by my power use during the windy flight. For a "normal" pattern, I used 1.39 mAHr from my 4s2100mAHr pack in the wind, whereas the day before, in almost perfect calm, the same exact battery pack was drawn 1.59 mAHr for a pattern. This was the same ESC and timer/throttle setup!

So it looks like the wind is actually putting power into the flight. I am guessing this is during the maneuvers downwind. Since I have heard of "wind flying" with no power at all, it sort of sounds plausible to be.

Should put a windmill-generator on the plane and I could let it run the motor  ;).



Offline John Cralley

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Re: Flying in the wind...
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2008, 08:34:09 PM »
Yep Alan,

Last April, at the Brotherhood of the Ring Roundup in Houston, I (and many others) watched Dee Rice do about a half dozen lazy figure eights downwind with his Ringmaster after his engine (not an electric) stopped. He was able to whip it through those eights and I think the wind was acting on the RM much like a kite. The wind by the way was quite brisk and I, myself, re-kitted my electric Ringmaster when I lost line tension. Dee is quite an impressive flier but Joe Gilbert edged him out in the expert pattern competition.

Anyway, you may be right in thinking that the wind, when downwind, is giving an assist and thus some extra power.
John Cralley
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Offline Archie Adamisin

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Re: Flying in the wind...
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2008, 10:06:26 AM »
Alan,

I am very excited to hear about your results.  Was this using the new program with the Castle controller?

I have seen the same pattern of power usage when flying the Electric Oriental.  At Brodak, it was absolutely dead air and I used over 2800 maH when I was only using 2600 here.  In the wind I have used as little as 2400.  I have flown the E-Oriental in some fairly windy conditions.  (Love that Muncie air) LL~ LL~ 

From past glow experience, we used to open the needle valve as the wind blew harder.  We would also put a flatter pitched prop for windy conditions & higher pitch props for the calm.

Archie Adamisin
Muncie, Indiana
Archie Adamisin
Burlington, KY

Alan Hahn

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Re: Flying in the wind...
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2008, 10:42:32 AM »
Archie,
I have not yet uploaded the new firmware. Still plan to but haven't gotten around to it yet.

Offline jim gilmore

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Re: Flying in the wind...
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2008, 10:44:55 PM »
I think there are 2 things going on, but over the reduction in power usage is akin to a real aircraft having a tail wind. When going into the wind the blades are moved easier as air is pushed into the blades likes a wind mill. As it goes down wind the plane itself is getting a free ride as the wind carries it down wind. On calm days the prop has to drag the plane all the way around the circle.

Alan Hahn

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Re: Flying in the wind...
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2008, 08:42:13 AM »
Jim,
Actually the power usage goes up going downwind, and eases off going upwind! The reason is as the plane turns into the downwind leg, its airspeed begins to drop. Yes the wind does try (via drag) to speed it up, but the main thing that happens is that the prop sees a heavier load---after all the rpm is being kept constant, but the airspeed has dropped, so the load goes up.
After it turns into the upwind leg, just the opposite happens, the airspeed increases, so the prop load decreases.

I was amazed by this when I was looking at the first few plots from my data recorder and was puzzled by how the battery current oscillated every lap, then even more surprised when I noticed when the highest current occurred--90 degrees before the downwind location we do the maneuvers, just when the plane has the highest tailwind.

So you can argue that some of the power savings comes from the fact that the higher power period is shorter (the groundspeed is highest) than the low power period (since the groundspeed is lowest). But I also think the peak power in the maneuvers is reduced since we are getting some energy for the climbs from the wind. I haven't run the data recorder recently to see if the peak power levels are reduced on a windy day, so this is a guess on my part--motivated by the people who can fly maneuvers with no power in the wind. Certainly can't do that (easily at least--I suppose you could whip) on a calm day!

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Flying in the wind...
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2009, 09:05:58 AM »
Guys,

This is an old thread that came up in a search for ground speed and I thought might be some food for thought. This spring we have had some strong winds here in FL on our flying day in the range of 14-18mph. The electric has done very well and certainly resists wind up a tad bit better than the IC setups flying here. Were it seems to struggle is once the wind gets to 17+mph going up wind the ships ground speed slows noticeably and doesn't recover until just before dead down wind. This shifts the start point for the maneuvers (particularly the horizontal 8's) past down wind and has the outside portion quit a bit into the wind (which in turn slows this portion). It seems that what we need is a way to stabilize the ground speed rather than airspeed. Our current ESC do and very good job of holding constant rpm which controls wind up very well. How can we get the system to do a better job of holding ground speed more constant or at least recover speed after a strong up wind leg or gust?

So far all I've come up with is increase the base speed and lengthen the lines but that just move the band up not solve the problem.

Best,               Dennis T

Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Flying in the wind...
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2009, 09:41:48 AM »
Well, just a total off the cuff theory, if you were to hook up the static and live pressure sensors from the eagle tree data  recorder so they function as a pressure differential swithc, perhaps the static port on the forward portion of the wing, and the live on the aft. Then as the pressure changed going with the wind, you could use this information to activate a magic circuit ( the specifics are not in my realm of knowledge but easy enough to see how it could be done) this signal could make the apprpriate adjustment to the speed controller.

Based on what Alan is seeing, If I understand him right, the airframe as it comes around to fly downwind actually is feeling a slowing down *relative the the air mass* and is trying to accelerate to regain its relationship to the air mass, though at this po0int the ground speed would be already higher than normal lap speed.
hmm
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Offline Larry Cunningham

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Re: Flying in the wind...
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2009, 02:13:12 PM »
I love it how you guys upload new firmware to make changes to the electric power
contour. No farting with venturi sizes, plugs, pipe lengths, fuel, props, etc.

And it is very interesting how the electric power system actually uses less energy
to fly in wind. That suggests that the ESC is really doing intelligent energy management.

Great stuff. You guys are my heroes.

L.

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Offline Dean Pappas

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Re: Flying in the wind...
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2009, 09:47:51 PM »
Hi Gang,
The slight reduction in energy consumption in moderate runway air has been noticed so often that it is unquestionably true. Then again, I have been setting a click or two richer in the same air with my wet setups for years now ... there is nothing new under the sun.

later,
Dean
Dean Pappas


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