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Author Topic: First Electric Experience. Fan-Freakin'-Tastic!  (Read 1338 times)

Offline Brent Williams

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First Electric Experience. Fan-Freakin'-Tastic!
« on: November 15, 2018, 04:56:06 AM »
Well, as the title foretells, I had my first flights on my electric converted Gieseke Nobler.  Until recently, it was equipped with a great running Brodak 40 and a carbon 10.6 x 4.9 Werwage prop, weighing 39.5oz dry.  I had some IC related torque and vibration problems develop due to the lack of any doublers in the nose.  I elected to convert the plane to electric to rather than have the plane destroy itself.  To that end, a Cobra 2820 970kv motor, Castle Creations Edge Lite 50, Hubin FM-9, Thunder Power 4s/2800, and a APC 11x5.5 tractor prop have taken their place in the nose.  Weighs 45oz with the battery installed and added .5oz tail weight.  Same 66ft .015" lines (handle to the center of the plane) as before.

So, off to the park on a fantastic sunny fall day with Gordan Delaney and my son for engine/prop/pipe/tank testing on his piped ship and to experience some electrickery in my own plane.  To start off, we put in several 2 minute flights to adjust RPM/lap time, add tail weight and adjust the leadouts forward, ect.  Felt, really, good on the first flight and better with each tweak.   Used only 28% of the battery on each of those flights.  I decided to fly those batteries from the 2min flights twice, as there was obviously plenty of juice left. 

Four 2 mintue test flights and three 6 minute, full patterns flights at 5.2-5.5 lap times depending on RPM settings.  9482 rpm and 5.2 felt very comfortable to me on the last flight and battery consumption was around 1960ma from 2800ma, with 30% left in reserve.  Just unbelievably fun!  The power is so smooth and instantaneous.  It felt like I could just attack the corners very aggressively and it would power through them with zero hesitation.  Very cool to feel it drive up and around the top on the vertical eight and on the hourglass.  The maneuver time/speed seems to be extremely comfortable.  Gordan and I were both able to hit the 2nd and 3rd turn across the top of the hourglass very hard and it turned better than it ever has.  Even Gordan was impressed, and he is a hard sale on the IC vs electric topic if you know him!  He is well known for his great running IC engines in all the popular flavors and events.  After my first hourglass flight, he commented, "man, you really nailed that hourglass..."  That was nice to hear!  I had him fly it next and although the handle setting was off for him, he flew a pretty deadly clean, impressive pattern.  He and I are both quite impressed.  There is a bit of hunting that still needs to be trimmed away, but overall it's a joy to fly.  Flats sections are flat, rounds are round, and it starts turning and stops turning very nicely.

Though it is trimmed in orange tissue, this plane was no pumpkin with the Brodak 40 engine.  It was very well powered, light, nicely trimmed and had great flight characteristics with no bad habits other than the nose related problem.  The new bionic enhanced-electric version is just WAY better!  No joke.  Perhaps it's the honeymoon phase, but I feel that I can fly it harder and better after only 3 full electric patterns than previously on glow power.  This is going to be a game changer for me at least.  My stash of nice IC engines is now feeling nervous, conspicuous and vulnerable. 

Do pay close attention to the special orange duct tape Stunt Tape™ cowl strap shown in the pics.  I left the proper cowl sitting on the bench at home, 20 miles from the field (&%$#@.)  Stunt Tape™ to the rescue.  Also useful for affixing tail weight.  Keep some Stunt Tape™ in the trunk, folks. 








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Offline TDM

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Re: First Electric Experience. Fan-Freakin'-Tastic!
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2018, 05:36:52 AM »
Welcome to the club. I made the jump this year too.
More things to consider are an active accelerator timer and perhaps try a lighter prop too.
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Offline Jim Mynes

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Re: First Electric Experience. Fan-Freakin'-Tastic!
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2018, 07:43:06 AM »
Everybody remembers their first time.
I have seen the light, and it’s powered by a lipo.

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: First Electric Experience. Fan-Freakin'-Tastic!
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2018, 09:55:50 AM »
Well, as the title foretells, I had my first flights on my electric converted Gieseke Nobler.  Until recently, it was equipped with a great running Brodak 40 and a carbon 10.6 x 4.9 Werwage prop, weighing 39.5oz dry.  I had some IC related torque and vibration problems develop due to the lack of any doublers in the nose.  I elected to convert the plane to electric to rather than have the plane destroy itself.  To that end, a Cobra 2820 970kv motor, Castle Creations Edge Lite 50, Hubin FM-9, Thunder Power 4s/2800, and a APC 11x5.5 tractor prop have taken their place in the nose.  Weighs 45oz with the battery installed and added .5oz tail weight.  Same 66ft .015" lines (handle to the center of the plane) as before.

So, off to the park on a fantastic sunny fall day with Gordan Delaney and my son for engine/prop/pipe/tank testing on his piped ship and to experience some electrickery in my own plane.  To start off, we put in several 2 minute flights to adjust RPM/lap time, add tail weight and adjust the leadouts forward, ect.  Felt, really, good on the first flight and better with each tweak.   Used only 28% of the battery on each of those flights.  I decided to fly those batteries from the 2min flights twice, as there was obviously plenty of juice left. 

Four 2 mintue test flights and three 6 minute, full patterns flights at 5.2-5.5 lap times depending on RPM settings.  9482 rpm and 5.2 felt very comfortable to me on the last flight and battery consumption was around 1960ma from 2800ma, with 30% left in reserve.  Just unbelievably fun!  The power is so smooth and instantaneous.  It felt like I could just attack the corners very aggressively and it would power through them with zero hesitation.  Very cool to feel it drive up and around the top on the vertical eight and on the hourglass.  The maneuver time/speed seems to be extremely comfortable.  Gordan and I were both able to hit the 2nd and 3rd turn across the top of the hourglass very hard and it turned better than it ever has.  Even Gordan was impressed, and he is a hard sale on the IC vs electric topic if you know him!  He is well known for his great running IC engines in all the popular flavors and events.  After my first hourglass flight, he commented, "man, you really nailed that hourglass..."  That was nice to hear!  I had him fly it next and although the handle setting was off for him, he flew a pretty deadly clean, impressive pattern.  He and I are both quite impressed.  There is a bit of hunting that still needs to be trimmed away, but overall it's a joy to fly.  Flats sections are flat, rounds are round, and it starts turning and stops turning very nicely.

Though it is trimmed in orange tissue, this plane was no pumpkin with the Brodak 40 engine.  It was very well powered, light, nicely trimmed and had great flight characteristics with no bad habits other than the nose related problem.  The new bionic enhanced-electric version is just WAY better!  No joke.  Perhaps it's the honeymoon phase, but I feel that I can fly it harder and better after only 3 full electric patterns than previously on glow power.  This is going to be a game changer for me at least.  My stash of nice IC engines is now feeling nervous, conspicuous and vulnerable. 

Do pay close attention to the special orange duct tape Stunt Tape™ cowl strap shown in the pics.  I left the proper cowl sitting on the bench at home, 20 miles from the field (&%$#@.)  Stunt Tape™ to the rescue.  Also useful for affixing tail weight.  Keep some Stunt Tape™ in the trunk, folks. 

I could take your post and sign my name to it.  Same motor, battery, ESCc, timer, and same outcome.  Mine was on a Twister I build just for this trial and, in the words of one of our local experts - "I have gone over to the dark side".  Lots of new things to learn but I cannot think of anything that is not better.  No hesitation in the RWO, point and click corners in the Hourglass and rounds that don't wind up - where have you been all my life?  But the real kicker that got me convinced was a cold morning where everybody was trying to get their needles set.  Punch the red button and 40 seconds later I was airborne with the exact same RPM I had on the last flight.  I will admit that Electric has it's own set of things to learn and I am light years away from learning them,  but is it better - yes.

I have solved one of the major problems already - Lack of noise.  Record your favorite pipe flying the pattern on your cell phone then put it in your pocket and play it back when you fly electric.  I do miss the sound, don't miss having to wipe down the plane or the pipe puddles on the circle.

Ken
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If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: First Electric Experience. Fan-Freakin'-Tastic!
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2018, 12:07:12 PM »
Good report on your plane.  I see in the pic you have a young lad ready to take control of the handle and start out flying you. H^^
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Offline Brent Williams

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Re: First Electric Experience. Fan-Freakin'-Tastic!
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2018, 02:28:58 PM »
Good report on your plane.  I see in the pic you have a young lad ready to take control of the handle and start out flying you. H^^

Thanks Doc!  Yes I am a proud papa.  This is my 4 year old son Wes.  Such a happy kid!  I have 4 kids (3 handsome boys ages 12, 10, 4 and one beautiful girl age 7) and we are expecting our 5th (and final...) child this weekend or next week. I'm a very lucky guy!
Laser-cut, "Ted Fancher Precision-Pro" Hard Point Handle Kits are available again.  PM for info.
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: First Electric Experience. Fan-Freakin'-Tastic!
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2018, 01:51:39 PM »

Four 2 mintue test flights and three 6 minute, full patterns flights at 5.2-5.5 lap times depending on RPM settings.  9482 rpm and 5.2 felt very comfortable to me on the last flight and battery consumption was around 1960ma from 2800ma, with 30% left in reserve.  Just unbelievably fun!  The power is so smooth and instantaneous.  It felt like I could just attack the corners very aggressively and it would power through them with zero hesitation.  Very cool to feel it drive up and around the top on the vertical eight and on the hourglass.  The maneuver time/speed seems to be extremely comfortable. 

    Note that this is why people don't use Brodak 40's, Stalker 51's, etc, in serious competition, and spend a lot of time adjusting IC setups. You can make it run the same way, or better, than electric (particularly, governor-only electric), with the most advanced IC systems that are adjusted correctly.  This is the sort of run we have been working to get on IC for 30+ years.

    The difference is, of course, that it's dead easy to get that on an electric system, it runs that way by default, instead of requiring decades of experience to make it that way and keep it that way. Ultimate performance is probably a wash between the very best electrics and the very best IC system, but almost no one has the very best, or even a competitive, IC system. Look at the posts in the Engine Setup forum, most of it is arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic, and no one even discusses competitive systems, sticking with ancient equipment and even more ancient ideas from the dim mists of history*.

    This is why electric has the possibility to transform people's performance. Tuned pipes were a similar level of breakthrough, and even the very first competitive systems were a quantum leap - for those who paid attention. You still had to know what you were looking for, and then work toward it (you should have seen what I saw at the 93 NATS - people struggling everywhere with long-solved problems and who refused to change it). Electric does what we have worked for easily, and it's hard to make it run any other way - although with Igor's system, you can certainly screw it up if you don't know what you are doing.

     Brett


*p.s. I just checked, and there isn't a single thread on the first page of the Engine Setup forum that has anything to do with a competitive engine system, and only one that vaguely relates to competition engine setups  (i.e. PA series, RO-Jett, and OS VF). I don't fault anyone for asking about what they have and are interested in, but it is striking that there is essentially no activity associated with any competitive system.

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: First Electric Experience. Fan-Freakin'-Tastic!
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2018, 07:36:35 PM »

    This is why electric has the possibility to transform people's performance......  Electric does what we have worked for easily, and it's hard to make it run any other way

I think you have nailed the essence of why the future of Stunt is electric.    I believe you are familiar with Hobby Park in Dallas.  It used to be an airport and there was a lot of RC activity back then.  Some of the older fliers show up from time to time when the soccer crowd is not there.  I had a discussion with one of them about IC vs electric and left with the impression that nobody gets into RC using IC anymore.  Why would it be any different in CL?  I think we have a shot at attracting new blood with electric, especially since it opens up our old recruiting ground - the local baseball diamonds/soccer fields.

When I came back to this wonderful sport last January I went to Hobby Park just to see what everybody was flying.  I was about finished putting together a Nobler ARF for my trusty OS35s.  They were just packing up but Mike Scott invited me to come their next regular Saturday AM session so I did.   We chatted a bit and Mike told me I was in for a surprise.  I had never seen a piped plane before.  I was really impressed.  Then it was Mike's turn up and he just punched a red button on the side of his plane and walked out to his handle....what?  That is when I knew it was a brave new world.  As the weeks went on I got to see some really nice piped runs and some really crappy ones but Mike just kept on pushing the red button and getting a perfect run.  That was when I knew I needed to make the transition once I got my reflexes back.  I have made the transition - still waiting on the reflexes.

You touched on something that will not be obvious to those that dropped out before pipes and are just coming back now.  Pipes are great, and light years better than what we used "back in the day" but they require knowing what you are doing, a whole new set of building techniques and they are very expensive.  Electric is only going to get better but the only way it is going to replace pipes is by example.    I don't see many of the experienced *pipers* just trashing the thousands they have tied up them and as you pointed out, when done right there is little or no difference in performance but,  for someone coming back in or just starting out I would highly recommend trying electric.

Ken

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If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: First Electric Experience. Fan-Freakin'-Tastic!
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2018, 07:44:55 PM »
Thanks Doc!  Yes I am a proud papa.  This is my 4 year old son Wes.  Such a happy kid!  I have 4 kids (3 handsome boys ages 12, 10, 4 and one beautiful girl age 7) and we are expecting our 5th (and final...) child this weekend or next week. I'm a very lucky guy!
I had two daughters and half of the reason I sat out for about 30 years was the things they were into did not include lines or engines.  You are a very lucky man and Wes is a very lucky kid.

Ken
AMA 15382
If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC

Offline Brent Williams

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Re: First Electric Experience. Fan-Freakin'-Tastic!
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2018, 03:26:37 PM »
    Note that this is why people don't use Brodak 40's, Stalker 51's, etc, in serious competition, and spend a lot of time adjusting IC setups. You can make it run the same way, or better, than electric (particularly, governor-only electric), with the most advanced IC systems that are adjusted correctly.  This is the sort of run we have been working to get on IC for 30+ years.

    The difference is, of course, that it's dead easy to get that on an electric system, it runs that way by default, instead of requiring decades of experience to make it that way and keep it that way. Ultimate performance is probably a wash between the very best electrics and the very best IC system, but almost no one has the very best, or even a competitive, IC system. Look at the posts in the Engine Setup forum, most of it is arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic, and no one even discusses competitive systems, sticking with ancient equipment and even more ancient ideas from the dim mists of history*.

    This is why electric has the possibility to transform people's performance. Tuned pipes were a similar level of breakthrough, and even the very first competitive systems were a quantum leap - for those who paid attention. You still had to know what you were looking for, and then work toward it (you should have seen what I saw at the 93 NATS - people struggling everywhere with long-solved problems and who refused to change it). Electric does what we have worked for easily, and it's hard to make it run any other way - although with Igor's system, you can certainly screw it up if you don't know what you are doing.

     Brett


*p.s. I just checked, and there isn't a single thread on the first page of the Engine Setup forum that has anything to do with a competitive engine system, and only one that vaguely relates to competition engine setups  (i.e. PA series, RO-Jett, and OS VF). I don't fault anyone for asking about what they have and are interested in, but it is striking that there is essentially no activity associated with any competitive system.
Thanks for your comments Brett.

I haven't had any flights with a piped ship yet, so I cannot speak from personal experience.  If it is even vaguely similar, i can only imagine the absolute revolutionary change that must have been felt in the stunt community when piped ships entered and began dominating the competition.  After 3 flying sessions now with electric power, I have pondered on the similarities of power delivery between piped engines and electric.  Both methods regulate rpm very effectively, in the milliseconds of response.   With the Hubin/KR timers the governor seeks only to maintain a given rpm.  I can imagine that Igor's and Fiorotti's active systems are even more fun and pipe-like with active boost/brake functionality.  I'll be using the governor based Hubin system for the foreseeable future due to budget constraints, but in time, as most seem to, I am sure I'll migrate to an Igor type system.

I can see now how electric power could be totally transformative in relation to the fliers level of performance.  There are a great many things that you no longer have to think about before/during/after the flight.  With electric, the quality of the run is better than most have ever experienced and the consistency of the run is better than most  can, or will ever achieve (*not all*).  *There are the diligent and talented select, like yourself, Paul, Bob H., Billy W, Dave F, Derek, and many others via OSVF, Randy Smith, Ro-Jett and the other purveyors of competitive engines/pipes, who have/had absolutely faultless piped setups.*  For the average stunt guys level of understanding, dedication and practice schedule however, the positive attributes and features that come standard with electric sure are addicting, alluring and most likely, absolutely advantageous.   
« Last Edit: November 19, 2018, 05:35:00 PM by Brent Williams »
Laser-cut, "Ted Fancher Precision-Pro" Hard Point Handle Kits are available again.  PM for info.
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