The profile does not have room for all of the wiring necessary.  Proof of concept 100% Success.  Installed just the timer part into the Trifecta.  Works as advertised.  Nothing needs to be removed to change settings on the timer!  With my bum knee it  is a blessing to not have to kneel down and take off panels!

One thing I noticed while testing was that sometimes, not always, when the timer gives you the "bump" to let you know that it is counting down, the sound is a bit off/rough and the prop only turns a revolution or two, or not at all.  If you move the prop afterword's there is a slight resistance.  I suspect this is normal.  I am still not completely familiar with it's noises.  After doing this the countdown and the run goes normally.  When I arm the ESC (Spin44 Pro) it also gives you a quick bump but the motor is free until the timer is turned on.

Ken

I forgot - I am doing the testing with a battery at storage voltage.  It reads 40%.

The brake function is on which works electrically. This will generally hold until the capacitors discharge or you recycle the ESC. I've noticed that with several ESC and timer combinations not just the Jeti and Fiorotti. The braking action is actually quite impressive. In a few of my tail cam videos you can see the shut down braking and the roll response from the deceleration.

Nice installation BTW

OOPS should have read the previous pose.  So what Mark said.

Actually I am glad to hear it twice!  So much to learn to get electric set up, so little to do once it is done!   I have noticed a couple of things that can go "wrong" if you don't let the capacitors discharge.  I feel relieved.  I would have never guessed that I needed to release the break since I rarely park on hills!   I guess it is like letting your Fox 35 cool before you try and start it again!

Ken

Ken,
Nice application, and with the pictures I can understand the problem that you were solving.  I have a box which houses the batter and electronics.  It is easy to have the extensions accessible as there not any hatches.  Extra wiring is somewhat hidden at the back of the box.  Picture below.
 
I noticed the on/off switch for the ESC.  You can tape that to "on" position and bury it or remove the switch and solder the wires together.  The timer button serves as the switch.

I'm with Fred. It would have been nice to understand the space constraint of the application. Would have reduced the number of efforts to make ideas clearer...  End of the day cool application.

As usual this thread has drifted off of the original question.  I hope it has been answered satisfactorily.  I have become personally more and more curious as to just how we maximize the potential of this remarkable timer and encourage it's development.  So, my question is should this thread simply expand into that area, should I, or someone else, open a new one specifically dedicated to its airborne use?  Or should I just stop being a PIA and go away? 

Ken

My honest opinion is that this timer is about as good as a simple device is going to work. To make improvements is a significant undertaking and the improvements likely insignificants. One thing that is required in that effort is a different propeller system. See the thread I started on precession. I started that thread as a result of some testing I did for a variable pitch propeller which, in turn, is part of an effort in exactly this direction. I have put the propeller effort in the parking lot for now but I should post some discussion on that topic.

 

I wouldn't mind digging into some of the features of the timer, I have about a dozen flights but have not adjusted anything but rpm, start up and flight time, so what exactly can you adjust and what are the effects?

Teh basic functions/adjustments are here
http://www.cltimer.com/

http://www.cltimer.com/wa_files/CL_20Timer_20v6_20EN.pdf

One way to learn the timer functions and then optimize for your plane and preferences is to turn off the settings for Sensitivity, nose up, and G-force, and then use one at a time and see what they do.   

Nose up adds RPM with the nose angled upward and goes back to base RPM when the nose is less than the set angle. Works upright or inverted.

G-force adds RPM when less than calibrated force is noted.  The decrease from calibrated force is set by Rogerio based on his testing.  The loss of force can be overhead due to gravity or at the upwind part of the circle with wind pushing the plane in.  There is an arc at the end of the circle and overhead where RPM is added, and otherwise returns to set RPM.

Sensitivity, Max and Min work together to add or decrease RPM.  This combination may decrease RPM below set RPM for braking.  The above functions may seem to give braking when the RPM goes from added back to set.

I flew for some time with Sensitivity, Max and Min only and didn't use nose up or G-force.  The timer worked fine, though it is more tunable to your specifics with all three functions.  Sensitivity works best if the sensor is leveled correctly to the plane, the other functions are less critical.  At the beginning, turn off the functions and trim the plane well.  Wing up or down affect the sensor, so trim before using the functions. Each function may turn on and off at different times, or different positions on the clock in a loop and give a different feel. Sensitivity, with Max and Min. is most useful, in my opinion since it supplies increase and decrease RPM.  After trim, fly with Sensitivity and M and M and adjust, then turn off and learn the other functions, then blend.

I hope this helps.  There is not a simple list of settings for every plane and person.

Thanks Fred, this is what I was looking for, I'll have to wait until spring to play with it though. 

Ken, I read about the flight on the Trifecta thread.  You mentioned lead out position as not yet finalized and that it may be part of the problem.  If you want more line tension, then you can get there with speed as you asked.  You could speed up the plane with base RPM and leave the other functions alone until you finish trim/lead outs.  Alternately, turn up sensitivity and or Max.  You then get a larger boost but keep lap time the same.

What is sensitivity?  What is Max delta/how much is max over base?

You can probably solve line tension with each timer function, but with different unintended consequences.  First, just a simple increase of base RPM, but at 5.2s/lap you may not wish that solution.  I fly a 67.5 – 70ish foot radius or center to center, and that at about 5.3 – 5.4 lap time.  You could move to longer lines and more speed with similar lap time.  Not necessarily what you wish, but one way.  Longer lines allow for more time to recover speed with longer “flats.”

When I flew on Sensitivity, and Max and Min (without nose up or G-force), Sensitivity was about 15 – 20 and mostly 17 or 18.  That with a Max and Min delta of 80ish from base.  That gave significant acceleration and deceleration and worked well.  When other functions are mixed in to accelerate, the Sensitivity may work well about 8 – 10.  Max and Min deltas stayed about the same, but all adjusted to fit your style. 

Nose up will add acceleration, no deceleration, but return to base RPM.  It can be very helpful.   Nose up adds 1us of pulse width for each click (see below).  From the instructions, the timer came set at 20us.  I turned that off and flew with sensitivity initially. Nose up seems to work noticeably above 5 and I don’t normally use more than 10us, but that is just preference.  It works in a “climb or cross overhead” as in the instructions.  If nose up is used without other functions, you may wish more like 20, or more.  That will help you to see what it does.

G-force seems to accelerate when force is low, so overhead. Gravity pulling the plane will remove 1G of force.  It also seems to accelerate when upwind and the plane is blown in with decreased force/line tension.

Any of the speed increases, or deceleration decrease, may help line tension overall and solve your wishes.  Each speed up gives a different feel to the flight.  For example, increase base RPM will help the line tension where you want it, but at the sacrifice of a overall faster flight and more battery use.  Nose up will add acceleration with the nose up.  But, if the wind comes up and you have enough energy and speed, nose up will still add acceleration.  Of course you can adjust it for conditions.  G-force is very useful overhead and upwind, or helping in windy conditions, but may still be “on” a bit as you pass over the top of a wingover.  As you use them you will easily accommodate and find them useful.  I still suggesting using one at a time until you are used to it and can feel what that function does.  Then when you want more or less acceleration in a specific area, you can decide which to adjust.

http://www.cltimer.com/wa_files/CL_20Timer_20v6_20EN.pdf

Still interested?  Some of my experience and idea are below.  Definitely not engineering explanations.  You may have some differences for different RPM ranges based on prop and line length.
One click of RPM adjustment for base or Max and Min is 0.002 sec to the pulse width and you can see this on the Jeti Box.  For reference, one click of nose up is 0.001 second. 

The timer controls from 1.200ms turn on to 2.000ms max or 800ms and timer has 400 steps, so 0.002ms/step.

Flying at about 10,400 RPM for about 5.2 second laps will give about 200 rpm for 0.1 second lap time change.

ESC rpm Max to Min is about 7500 to 11,500 or 4000 rpm in 400 steps or about 10 rpm for step. 

To change lap time 0.1 seconds may take 20ish timer clicks.

If you add acceleration, you will obviously get more laps in the same flight time but use more battery.  If you keep adding lap speed and acceleration, be careful of battery use.  If you like all of the functions turned up, turn down the total flight time, or slow the lap speed.  A change of lap time of 0.05 can be significant.

I have a friend with a sensor mounted ahead of the wing under the battery.  It seems to work as well as it did when he had it a bit behind the CG.  My sensor is well behind the CG, about 4 inches.  Level and wires forward are necessary, and the longitudinal position seems less important.
 
I thought your bottom hatch was at about the trailing edge for adjusting the control system?

I am having a strange issue with the timer.  The way my flying group describes it is "the plane has no drive on outsides".  I don't feel it from the inside, but these are some top experts noticing it so I can't ignore it. I know of nothing other than perhaps the accelerometer sensor that would even have a clue if the plane is turning inside or outside.  As best as I could check it at the field it appeared to be level.  I have nose up set to 6 and g-force way up there at 22.  I have no idea what the upper limits are for either.

Ken

If I recall correctly, you found a wing problem and fixed it??  I would guess that with your observers the wings are level, and all of the basic trim is good.  I mention this because wings not level will give different sensor tilt for insides and outsides, but again, probably would have been noted.

Well I have just learned something.  I had no idea that the sensor needed to be level in both axis.  Thank you.  The wings were not level today.  Off just a bit but not enough to stop me from getting in two patterns.  I had to adjust the flap pushrod and that required me to recenter the flaps.  I missed it by a tad but let it go.  The plane has real potential.  That will be fixed next time out.

Ken

What problem is being solved with higher G-force and could it be solved with trim or the other functions?

It is not so much a "problem" as it is a preference.  I am getting on in years and holding the back bent position in the OH8 is getting more difficult. I am pretty good at flying the behind the head part blind if I have good line tension.  I also like the feel of the power boost at the top of the inside loop of the V8 and the climb on the hourglass.   Those all appear to be the result of G-Force.

Ken

Something on another thread started one of those "things that make you go Hummm" moments.  Up till switching to the Fiorotti timer I had been using fixed rpm types where "boost" was really recovery from loss.  What happens to boost when the base RPMs are at the high end for the prop you are using?  I think I know the answer, but I would like to confirm - you have to make sure that the maximum boost does not exceed the motor's ability to provide it because it will literally "die trying".  Am I wrong here?

Ken

It has taken some time, experimentation and help from those that went there before but finally I can say that I have this beast figured out and what I am most impressed with now that I have it "trimmed" is how smooth it is.  It is like flying with an intelligent Hubin timer.  No crazy RPM swings just steady power where you need it and smooth backing off where you don't.  I hope that this is only the beginning.

Ken

What are your current settings and lap time for comparison to above?

Lap 5.4, Base "RPM" value 295, Max Delta 90, Min Delta 80, Nose Up 10, G-Gorce 15, Sensitivity 11.  Most of my issues from before were from a misaligned accelerometer. 

Ken

Frank.
The "Tips and Troubleshooting" document is a good thing to have with you when at the field. I wish that it was available back when I got the new Fiorotti timer.

I put this document together for my own personal use. The idea was to bring key information together, in one place, so that when I am working with this timer, and have a problem or question I could go to one place and not have to search and read through all the threads. After reading through this thread  I can see many useful additions to be added. So, it’s a work in progress. But for now it may be useful to someone just getting started with the timer. All of the settings and procedures can be a bit overwhelming to someone just seeing this stuff for the first time.

Frank, that is a great reference.
 
A few opinions and suggestions are offered.  In V.4 the sensor and timer were separate pieces and could be swapped with proper technique.  Now the unit is one piece, at least V6.4.  The C value, sensor constant is the level reference point and should not be changed.  If you have flat level table, you should see that the Y value is already equal to C.  The C value is stored in the timer for its level reference and should not be changed.  If Y and C are not equal, check your level reference table several times by rotating the sensor in several different directions.  Signals from the sensor are still going to be based on the original C value of the sensor.  Think of C as the electronic neutral point of the sensor, not changeable.  You can manipulate the recorded C value, but the sensor is actually sending its constant.

It is a good idea to also know the level X or roll axis value as seen on a level table.

I find that installing the sensor and obtaining the X, and Y equal C, values with the plane level, then flipping the plane over and getting the same values is the best procedure.  I can usually get within +/- one number, but I may have to shim slightly if my mounting spot is not exactly aligned with X and Y of the plane.

That mounting will work well if the plane actually flies when trimmed as you guesstimated on your sensor mount.  If there is a slight bit of wing up or down, then the sensor will react to that, similarly if the plane has a slight nose up or down pitch.  A good reason to keep acceleration and deceleration off until trimming of the plane is done.

As far as settings for the timer, much depends on personal preference.  You may want the reassurance of hearing and feeling the timer accelerate and decelerate at first.  Noticeable auditory changes may be accompanied by visual changes of torque and sudden speed change.  One way to use the timer is to find a base speed that you would use without added acceleration or deceleration, then use the functions to slightly modify that.  Use functions somewhat like a trim tool.  If you try to slow the level flight and use functions to overcome, then you will see and hear the timer action, and so will the judges.  It may be a distraction.   If the plane speed is already adequate, the back off a few clicks of base RPM and use smallish numbers.  I like about 7 - 8  of nose up, about 7 - 8 of sensitivity, and 5 - 10 of G force.  Deltas for Max and Min in the 50 range.  Again, it all depends on your style.

It doesn't change C.  Calibration establishes the measured baseline G-Force for the given speed/lap time.  You can change the RPM a click or two, fly the approximate 4 laps for calibration, then look at the G-force value in the Jeti box.  G-force will change, C does not.  C is linked to the inherent value that the cesnor is sending out at neutral, assuming that I understand and explain correctly as non-engineer and non-programmer.

G-force is around 3 for 70ish feet and 5.2ish lap times.

G-force function will use the calibrated G-force as its target to measure against as to when to add RPM.

Likely the sensor constant is determined on a level table and set as C as a timer and sensor are assembled.  You don't need/want to change the C value, as timer and sensor are now paired and C set as shipped.  That is my surmise.

As far as title, I think that only the original poster who labled the thread can change it.  Perhaps a moderator.  You can change the title each time as I just did, but it will not stick.

Frenk,
I am sorry for any offense, it was not intended.  I didn't think that you stated or implied that G-force calibration changed the C value, but I thought that was the question of Ken.

When the timer calibrates in the air is it doing anything to "C"?
Ken

As to why C is changeable?  My guess is that as the timer is assembled, one of the last steps is adding the sensor to the board and then setting the C value using a level table.  Perhaps it then could have the function locked, or that may add an extra processing step.  As an aside, I used to switch the timer to sensor in V4 and could them leave a sensor in a plane and use the timer in another.  I have done so by setting C on a table.   Meaning changing the C value in tshe timer to match the used sensor.  I may have even mentioned it in the past, but don't recommend it.  I suspect that this caused trouble for others.  You then need to keep careful track of the C value of every sensor and set the timer to it.

Again, my apology.  I appreciate the information that you compiled and shared.

Fred

Open question to the Fiorotti users.  Can the accelerometer cable be spliced and if so where is the best place.  Close to the acc or close to the timer or in-between.  I have it mounted where I need to separate the cable to fully remove a hatch.  Probably a Quad P on my part.  Also, if I do splice the wire will it damage my settings if separated with power on the timer?  I would most likely never do that, but I would like to know anyway.  Finally, a related question. Can extra accelerometers be ordered or are they paired to the timer.  Reason I asked that is one of my group had one go bad on Igor's timer and he was able to simply swap it with one from another plane.  I like that since all of my competition planes use the same timer.

Ken

After some discussions with Fred, I decided to remove the Alternate Method for installing and leveling the sensor from the document I posted earlier in this thread. I have attached the updated version. Also, added some bench testing results to this one.

I have found a solution to the one thing that I don't like about the timer.  I cannot see the LED clearly in flight, so I tried making it a tube light.  I cut a piece of 5mm ID x 8mm OD clear polycarbonate tubing and put it over the led.  When it is lit it fills the walls of the tube and makes the light extremely visible.  5 x 7 would be better but I couldn't find any.  Sorry about the end of the video.  It was so short that YouTube made it a "short" and you can't edit shorts.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/M-acFXj5XIw

Ken

I am considering going from5s to 6s batteries.  Both the JetSpinPro 44 and the timer aledgedly "autodetect" the "s" value but, having done that once in the past, I got an enormous jump in RPM (from a 5.5 to a 4.1 lap times).  Should I lower the base value in the timer before I fly it and if so about (% wise) how much should I lower it?

Ken

I've not tried it, so I don't have the answer.  As a side issue, I don't care for autodetect.  With autodetect, any S value works.  With specified S, you can't get the system to run if you put in the wrong S pack.  If I change anything significant, I check RPM and adjust before flight.

Does you post mean that you were running 4K - 5.5K rpm range?  That is below my ESC min rpm.

Sorry, those were the lap time differentials by simply changing battery from 5s to 6s.

Ken