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Electric Stunt => Gettin all AMP'ed up! => Topic started by: Larry Wong on October 15, 2021, 02:10:40 PM
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has anyone have idea on how to extend the start button on a full fuselage ? HB~>
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has anyone have idea on how to extend the start button on a full fuselage ? HB~>
There seem to be no really great options. You can glue a dowel extension of the same diameter or do what I am doing and mount it to the back of a removable hatch. One thing I really liked about the Huben was the optional start button.
Ken
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Solutions for profiles.
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Full fuselage solutions
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It has been reported that CA and/or kicker can ruin the switch, so be careful if gluing an extension. From what i can tell, the switch is a 2 pin momentary micro button switch. On the older version, the button is about 6mm above the face of the switch. One of the switches below might work. I had an old non working timer and removed the switch without too much difficulty.
https://www.amazon.com/TWTADE-Momentary-ButtonTact-Assortment-QC-9V-2P/dp/B085SWHFMK/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=push+button+micro+switch+2+pin&qid=1634337907&sr=8-4
https://www.ebay.com/itm/292275046056?hash=item440cf346a8:g:GzAAAOSwKNJZzx5I
https://www.ebay.com/itm/293696573394?hash=item4461ae0fd2:g:T7kAAOSwGQJfPGB1
See sellers store for other length.
Update to this.
The button switch on V4 is 2 pin and fairly easily removed. I was going to change the V6 to a longer button switch, but the V6 has a 4 pin switch and a chip is on the other side of the board blocking easy access to the solder joints. I did not try to work on the V6.
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deleted, duplicate
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Fred: If I go from an 11-6 three to an 11-6 two, how much should I be upping RPM PWM1? Right now it is at 215 which was where I flew it on the 3 blade. That gave me somewhere around 9,000. I am thinking maybe 230?. Should be about 9,700. That is what I ran my Cobra 3520 on using an 11-6 two blade APC or MAS. I am testing two new BA wood props.
Does changing RPM automatically adjust MAX/MIN?
Ken
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The Max and Min rpm settings slide up and down with the base rpm to keep the deltas the same, I think in all of the V6 versions. For a one time check, when you change rpm, check after change to be sure that the Max/'Min changed.
There are 400 steps in RPM setting. My experience is that a step is about 8 - 12 rpm. On my 12 x 5 Igor 3 blade the rpm is about about 400 lower than with the 11 x 5 3 blade and that is about 35 steps (not actual PWM number, but timer steps) lower. That is in the 10.8k down to 10.4k rpm range. Interesting that my 235 number gives about 10.4 and 275 gives about 10.8k rpm. I think that you get some variation on the actual number based on other timer and ESC settings.
I used the Xoar wood 2 blades and they worked well and are light weight. Not very expensive, but can be hard to find.
I hope that helps.
Fly a minute or so and check your lap time or run the risk of killing a battery, or having a long slow flight :-)
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I used the Xoar wood 2 blades and they worked well and are light weight. Not very expensive, but can be hard to find.
I ran it up on the BadAss 11-6 and I think I am going to up the base to 250 for my first flight tests. The BA was very smooth and quiet. I have used the XOAR on smaller motors. Liked them. Ultimate goal is a good CF three blade. Thanks for the help.
Ken
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has anyone have idea on how to extend the start button on a full fuselage ? HB~>
The start button is my singular not so happy place on this timer. Mine is simply installed the way Rogerio states in the installation instructions with a piece of command strip. Seems to work okay but needs to be squished back in sometimes. I gave up on making a fancy mount and went for two holes drilled in the side.
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The start button is my singular not so happy place on this timer. Mine is simply installed the way Rogerio states in the installation instructions with a piece of command strip. Seems to work okay but needs to be squished back in sometimes. I gave up on making a fancy mount and went for two holes drilled in the side.
I installed mine flush on the back of a 1/32" plywood hatch. I use a block on the inside to hold in place. No adhesive. Stays put and easy to remove. My only problem(s) with the timer so far are getting the ESC on the right pins in poor light (I keep putting it on the LG pins) and getting RPM set. I would prefer an actual RPM displayed on the Jetti instead of that "code". Other than that I love it.
Please forgive the rather sloppy finishing. This is a test bed for all kinds of Crap things brush painted over monokote at my office desk. Plane looks great from 10' LL~
Ken
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I installed mine flush on the back of a 1/32" plywood hatch. I use a block on the inside to hold in place. No adhesive. Stays put and easy to remove. My only problem(s) with the timer so far are getting the ESC on the right pins in poor light (I keep putting it on the LG pins) and getting RPM set. I would prefer an actual RPM displayed on the Jetti instead of that "code". Other than that I love it.
Please forgive the rather sloppy finishing. This is a test bed for all kinds of Crap things brush painted over monokote at my office desk. Plane looks great from 10' LL~
Ken
If'n I find motivation, I'll probably make a 3D printed mounting device. That is likely to happen on the next build. The Fiorotti was installed in already completed airplanes and I'm generally lazy. I have many other projects in the fire.
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Fly a minute or so and check your lap time or run the risk of killing a battery, or having a long slow flight :-)
Update for you and Rogerio:
Finally able to put in a few more flights. Turned on Nose Up and G-Force. I have never experienced an hourglass before where the overhead turns were so easy. I actually have nearly the same tension directly overhead as I do down low. Some of that was the lines, I am trying the new .0145 three strand lines from Ukraine and they have substantially less drag so my leadouts are probably a tad further back than necessary. But, WOW that bump climbing and powering through the turns then backing off so that I could hold the down leg all the way --- priceless. First time in wind too. About 10-12 and there was practically no wind up. It also seems to be easier to hold shape in the rounds. The plane is still completely untrimmed. Only one thing is off - everything. I have wings level and that is about it.
Super happy with battery performance using the Jetti/Fiortti. TP 5s 2800 lands at 28% remaining using a 3 blade 11-6 MAS.
I must be doing something wrong with sequencing. Twice the motor has failed to start when everything appears normal. If you have started the timer then hit the off switch, is there a time you need to wait before starting again? Twice I have had to stop the startup sequence and restart. Battery connected, switch on, wait for prop to wiggle, hit timer start button wait for mini burst.. Twice I have not gotten the mini burst and the motor never started. Turning it off and waiting about 20 seconds and restarting worked.
So far I am giving the timer an "A". If it was easier to mount and had a remote start button like the Huben it would get an "A+"
Ken
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Update for you and Rogerio:
Finally able to put in a few more flights. Turned on Nose Up and G-Force. I have never experienced an hourglass before where the overhead turns were so easy. I actually have nearly the same tension directly overhead as I do down low. Some of that was the lines, I am trying the new .0145 three strand lines from Ukraine and they have substantially less drag so my leadouts are probably a tad further back than necessary. But, WOW that bump climbing and powering through the turns then backing off so that I could hold the down leg all the way --- priceless. First time in wind too. About 10-12 and there was practically no wind up. It also seems to be easier to hold shape in the rounds. The plane is still completely untrimmed. Only one thing is off - everything. I have wings level and that is about it.
Super happy with battery performance using the Jetti/Fiortti. TP 5s 2800 lands at 28% remaining using a 3 blade 11-6 MAS.
I must be doing something wrong with sequencing. Twice the motor has failed to start when everything appears normal. If you have started the timer then hit the off switch, is there a time you need to wait before starting again? Twice I have had to stop the startup sequence and restart. Battery connected, switch on, wait for prop to wiggle, hit timer start button wait for mini burst.. Twice I have not gotten the mini burst and the motor never started. Turning it off and waiting about 20 seconds and restarting worked.
So far I am giving the timer an "A". If it was easier to mount and had a remote start button like the Huben it would get an "A+"
Ken
You have to hold the button down until the LED turns on. Are you doing that?
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Update for you and Rogerio:
Finally able to put in a few more flights. Turned on Nose Up and G-Force. I have never experienced an hourglass before where the overhead turns were so easy. I actually have nearly the same tension directly overhead as I do down low. Some of that was the lines, I am trying the new .0145 three strand lines from Ukraine and they have substantially less drag so my leadouts are probably a tad further back than necessary. But, WOW that bump climbing and powering through the turns then backing off so that I could hold the down leg all the way --- priceless. First time in wind too. About 10-12 and there was practically no wind up. It also seems to be easier to hold shape in the rounds. The plane is still completely untrimmed. Only one thing is off - everything. I have wings level and that is about it.
Ken
Yep, that sounds about right :-) Careful, you are helping your competition.
The only reason I have encountered for not starting is pushing the start button too soon. If you push the button before both a beep and a flash, then no start. You can tell this because the timer light then does not start flashing. On a restart, unplug the battery and wait a couple seconds then go through the full sequence. I think the couple of seconds without power is for the ESC capacitors to power down/off.
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Update for you and Rogerio:
If it was easier to mount and had a remote start button like the Huben it would get an "A+"
Ken
If you mean a button on wire leads, you could probably do that by removing the button from the board and soldering in a momentary switch on leads in its place.
Update on Dec 11
The 4 pin button switch is not easily removed. I had been looking at a V4 and that switch is 2 pin with easy access.
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You have to hold the button down until the LED turns on. Are you doing that?
Yes, Fred's post answered the question. I have been starting the timer too soon. With the Castle I was using, it would sing to you while doing it's thing so you were polite and waited till it finished.
Ken
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Yep, that sounds about right :-) Careful, you are helping your competition.
They are going to need it! #^
Ken
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Yes, Fred's post answered the question. I have been starting the timer too soon. With the Castle I was using it sung to you while doing it's thing so you were polite and waited till it finished.
Ken
You're going to be spoiled. The Jeti Fiorotti is a great combo. I like that you can use the same interface. I like the Castles because they are what I have around from the RC days. But the Jeti is better. I've been through all of the Hubins too and the one of those I like the best is the FM0c, otherwise not so much.
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Solutions for profiles.
Off topic, but -- that is a nice looking motor mount.
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Let me pose another question here. I have trouble with disconnecting the esc to plug it into the Jetti box without having to pull the timer plug as well. I know that you need to do that, but my concern is that these are very fragile wires and connectors and I worry about breaking wires and loosening connectors not to mention the embarrassment and wasted time that comes after you put them back wrong and the ESC won't arm.
So, my question, is there a small switching plug that would allow you keep the timer plugs plugged in all the time?
I would really like to be able to plug in the Jetti to one port and get the timer and another port to get the ESC. They could be flush mounted in the fuselage or covered by a hatch.
Are there kits or electronic supplies that let you make custom connectors? That is a dumb question, of course there are but have any of you done something similar. Connectors are the #1 and probably also the #2 reason for in air failures and it is not like your motor sputters or goes rich first, it just silently stops.
Ken
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Are there kits or electronic supplies that let you make custom connectors?
Yes, but you either by the $20 crimping tool at the hobby shop and it's never up to pro standards, or you buy the $200 pro crimping tool and then wonder why you spent all that money.
https://www.maxxprod.com/mpi/mpi-4.html has crimpers and connector kits. A SPDT slide switch would do the switch-over; yet one of those from a reputable place like DigiKey or Mouser, or roll the dice with surplus places like MPJA Electronics or All Electronics.
The $20 tool (OK, $17 and change from Maxx Products) will work, but you have to know the end goal and be willing to fiddle.
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Let me pose another question here. I have trouble with disconnecting the esc to plug it into the Jetti box without having to pull the timer plug as well. I know that you need to do that, but my concern is that these are very fragile wires and connectors and I worry about breaking wires and loosening connectors not to mention the embarrassment and wasted time that comes after you put them back wrong and the ESC won't arm.
So, my question, is there a small switching plug that would allow you keep the timer plugs plugged in all the time?
I would really like to be able to plug in the Jetti to one port and get the timer and another port to get the ESC. They could be flush mounted in the fuselage or covered by a hatch.
Are there kits or electronic supplies that let you make custom connectors? That is a dumb question, of course there are but have any of you done something similar. Connectors are the #1 and probably also the #2 reason for in air failures and it is not like your motor sputters or goes rich first, it just silently stops.
Ken
Why wouldn't you just get a male to male connection and just stow it when you aren't using it? For $7 on Amazon you can get enough for 10 airplanes delivered to your door.
https://www.amazon.com/DIYmall-10PCS-Servo-Extension-Cable/dp/B016RJ8S42/ref=sr_1_8?keywords=RC+JR+male+to+male+cable&qid=1639084411&sr=8-8
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Why wouldn't you just get a male to male connection and just stow it when you aren't using it? For $7 on Amazon you can get enough for 10 airplanes delivered to your door.
https://www.amazon.com/DIYmall-10PCS-Servo-Extension-Cable/dp/B016RJ8S42/ref=sr_1_8?keywords=RC+JR+male+to+male+cable&qid=1639084411&sr=8-8
Thanks but I was trying to make this complicated. That will work. No, I need an extension cable not a male to male.
Ken
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Thanks but I was trying to make this complicated. That will work. No, I need an extension cable not a male to male.
Ken
The timer side is pins and the Jeti side is pins. Both sides need a male connector I just leave the connector on my timer in the airplane and connect it directly to the Jeti box. I never disconnect my timer from the ESC. That would be way too difficult as the timer in mounted under the battery tray. There isn't any need to connect the other cable to the Jeti box as the power will come through the time connector.
You could get longer ones as well. Or connect an extension to a short jumper from the airplane. The one I have in my plane is about 6". Actually there are two, the other is for the ESC which is also tucked under the battery tray.
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See the post 123 with picture on the Trifecta thread.
I use extensions and then the break point is up where you can see, and I don't unplug at the timer. I also use a 4 cell NiXX battery (not to exceed 5.5v) to run the Jeti box and timer/ESC. Using the timer or ESC is very easy and convenient, and I don't have to plug into a Lipo power pack. I use a set up like the picture to pre-program out of the airplane. You can set up the wiring to use male to male or male to female with proper lead end choices.
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See the post 123 with picture on the Trifecta thread.
I use extensions and then the break point is up where you can see, and I don't unplug at the timer. I also use a 4 cell NiXX battery (not to exceed 5.5v) to run the Jeti box and timer/ESC. Using the timer or ESC is very easy and convenient, and I don't have to plug into a Lipo power pack. I use a set up like the picture to pre-program out of the airplane. You can set up the wiring to use male to male or male to female with proper lead end choices.
That's a really good way to pre set your timer. I'm not that sophisticated. I just do it in the airplane. Since my timer and ESC reside under the tray and neither is easy to get to, I run a cable out from both. The Spin pro has two connections, one for the Jeti box. I simply plug in to what I need after arming. Usually I have the airplane tied down in the stooge or the prop removed in the shop.
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The picture shows the leads that I also leave on in the airplane. From what I can tell, similar to what you are doing. It is easy to separate and join leads away from the timer. I leave longer leads attached to the Jeti box so that I am not plugging into the Box, but the box leads. With long leads, I don't have to stay bent over very far when programming with the plane on the ground. The small 4 cell pack NiXX pack is very useful at home or in the field.
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Fred, in the "timer and jeti box" photo, you have a small connector between the sensor and the timer. I plan to do the same, but I can not find a suitable 4-pin connector - all too large in size. What is the name of the connector you use?
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The picture shows the leads that I also leave on in the airplane. From what I can tell, similar to what you are doing. It is easy to separate and join leads away from the timer. I leave longer leads attached to the Jeti box so that I am not plugging into the Box, but the box leads. With long leads, I don't have to stay bent over very far when programming with the plane on the ground. The small 4 cell pack NiXX pack is very useful at home or in the field.
Fred: A question on the sensor. In addition to the connector on the sensor lead, which I like and will need soon, is there any reason the sensor cannot be in the fuselage? In my new design, first one fully designed from pencil to paint for electric I am building a very large bottom hatch to give me access from the bellcrank to the logarithmic flap horn. I would like to mount the sensor on an adjustable platform inside the wing hatch so I can use adjustment screws to align it from the outside. Also, is there any real difference in performance between vertical and horizontal positioning. I assume not. I am also making an assumption that it only needs to be level along the long axis.
Ken
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Ken,
I put the sensor in a profile fuse here
https://stunthanger.com/smf/gettin-all-amp'ed-up!/old-dog-new-trics-old-plane-new-rogerio-fiorotti-timer/
and in a "box" beside the fuse here
https://stunthanger.com/smf/gettin-all-amp'ed-up!/another-dog-another-'tric-fiorotti-v4-4-timer-with-accelerometer/
You can see the box on the fuse bottom attached to the fuse.
Hatch in the wing would be similar to a built fuse, so it is fine. You will have to adjust to find a good position around the CG. I have a friend who mounted his sensor in the battery compartment, or fuse front, and it seems to work fine (not specifically recommended, but seems ok). The sensor must be aligned with lead wires coming out of the front, toward the nose, even if sensor in front of CG. Sensor width must be aligned flat with wing length and sensor length must be aligned flat with level wing cord. My sensor is fairly far aft of CG and works fine. I hope that answers your question on alignment.
Sensor wire connector info to follow.
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Sensor header connectors are shown in the attached photo. I use Arduino headers male and female. You can read the labels on the packages. I have the crimped style connectors, from a friend, but don't have the crimper, and I am used to soldering. Cut the sensor lead and attach the header parts, include shrink tubing insolation. Or make a path from the sensor to the timer mount and leave it together. You can cut a hole (slot that is sensor size) through the wing firewall and leave it all intact. My reason for cutting and splicing is to stay within a 3/4" OD fuse for profile and to then feed the spliced connector through a tunnel. Neither the timer nor sensor will pass.
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Thanks Fred!
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You can cut a hole (slot that is sensor size) through the wing firewall and leave it all intact. My reason for cutting and splicing is to stay within a 3/4" OD fuse for profile and to then feed the spliced connector through a tunnel. Neither the timer nor sensor will pass.
This is EXACTLY what I was looking for! ??? :! y1 #^
Now to design the circuitry to make it so that I don't have to take off hatches and fumble with the internal wiring. One thing I learned from my years in aircraft maintenance in the USAF was that most accidents are caused by preventive maintenance. LL~
Ken
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This is EXACTLY what I was looking for! ??? :! y1 #^
Now to design the circuitry to make it so that I don't have to take off hatches and fumble with the internal wiring. One thing I learned from my years in aircraft maintenance in the USAF was that most accidents are caused by preventive maintenance. LL~
Ken
Preventative maintenance is the primary cause of wear.
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Question to the "You know more than me" group here. Is there a difference between the ESC1 and ECS2 connections? In other words can you put the Spin 44 on ESC2 and the Jetti Box on ESC1? In my setup, ESC2 is really hard to reach and there is no room for extensions either. Next one gets a maintenance panel. You can only bend a wire so many times before it breaks.
Ken
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Folks,
I don't understand the subject about extensions, I have sent the extension to connect to JetiBox with the timer. Are you getting it?
Ken, the JetiBox connection port cannot be changed.
Rogerio
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Question to the "You know more than me" group here. Is there a difference between the ESC1 and ECS2 connections? In other words can you put the Spin 44 on ESC2 and the Jetti Box on ESC1? In my setup, ESC2 is really hard to reach and there is no room for extensions either. Next one gets a maintenance panel. You can only bend a wire so many times before it breaks.
Ken
No, there are three sets of pins. Jeti, ESC1 and ESC2 The Jeti is for data communication to the Jeti box. ESC1 is the primary motor for single and twin. ESC2 is for the slave number two motor. The ESC plugs don't communicate only output. I I just "permanently" plug an extension in to the Jeti one and the ESC into ESC1 and stow the extension in the fuse for flight. Actually I use a male to male there like what Rogirio ships with the timer but longer.
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No, there are three sets of pins. Jeti, ESC1 and ESC2 The Jeti is for data communication to the Jeti box. ESC1 is the primary motor for single and twin. ESC2 is for the slave number two motor. The ESC plugs don't communicate only output. I I just "permanently" plug an extension in to the Jeti one and the ESC into ESC1 and stow the extension in the fuse for flight. Actually I use a male to male there like what Rogirio ships with the timer but longer.
Which version do you have? I have V6. V5 is different. Mine is ESC1, Landing Gear, ESC2 Jetti Box in that order. The ESC has a black connector and a red connector. I fly with black connected to ESC1. Program Timer with Balck to ESC1 and Jetti to ESC2. Program Spin44 with Red from ESC and timer disconnected. It appears to be working this way but the logistics of field changes are a mess. What prompted my question is that it also worked if I reversed ESC1 and ESC2. All of the help on the forum is for versions 4 and 5. 6 appears to be fairly new.
Ken
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Folks,
I don't understand the subject about extensions, I have sent the extension to connect to JetiBox with the timer. Are you getting it?
Ken, the JetiBox connection port cannot be changed.
Rogerio
What is prompting all of this is the tight space that I have for the timer (my fault) and having to disconnect it to program the ESC. It takes a lot of pushing on bent wires to get it done. Bending these small wires is not a good thing. All of the illustrations I can find for connecting to the Spin ESC are for the older versions of the timer. The reason for the extensions is that the timer needs to be disconnected from the Spin in order to program the ESC.
Am I correct that the Jetti port is Labeled ESC2?
Ken
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Rogerio's site shows the timer and has the pin labeled for the new versions of V6.
http://www.cltimer.com/
http://www.cltimer.com/wa_files/CL_20Timer_20v6_20EN.pdf
Jeti box and ESC2 share pins. If you are not using a second ESC, those pins are free. At present, you must be able to access the pins to plug in the Jeti Box, and also thepins for ESC1, though tight as you noted. Remove your connections and put a 4,6, or 8" extension on the pins, then connect the ESC to the pins of ESC1 via the extension. You can connect and disconnect as needed at the extension/ESC junction instead of the ESC pin junction. Similar for the ESC2/Jeti box connection. Just hook up the Jeti box to the extension or add other length of extensions to make connections easy. I never attach the Jeti box directly to the timer pins, but the extension.
So yes, the Jeti box shares pins with ESC2.
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The ESC has a black connector and a red connector. I fly with black connected to ESC1. Program Timer with Balck to ESC1 and Jetti to ESC2. Program Spin44 with Red from ESC and timer disconnected. It appears to be working this way but the logistics of field changes are a mess. What prompted my question is that it also worked if I reversed ESC1 and ESC2.
Ken
I believe V6.4 has pins parallel with the board and earlier V.6 versions had the pins perpendicular. Functions of landing gear and G-force were added. I am not sure about "reversing ESC1 and ESC2." If you add appropriate extensions to get the leads to a serviceable position, changes should be easy. I use them in profile and have also seem extensions help in full fuse. You will have a bit or long/loose wiring to deal with, but the connections should be easy. Label the connections so that you don't mix them up.
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What is prompting all of this is the tight space that I have for the timer (my fault) and having to disconnect it to program the ESC. It takes a lot of pushing on bent wires to get it done. Bending these small wires is not a good thing. All of the illustrations I can find for connecting to the Spin ESC are for the older versions of the timer. The reason for the extensions is that the timer needs to be disconnected from the Spin in order to program the ESC.
Am I correct that the Jetti port is Labeled ESC2?
Ken
Yes, it is multi function port. My bad.
Here is a the instructions for V6. you should have them.
CL_20Timer_20v6_20ENue
This is for V5
CL_20Timer_20v5_Eng
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Once I got all of the info as to which port does what it was simple to set up an outside access panel to program both the timer and ESC (if necessary) without taking off hatches or disconnecting anything. $20 on Amazon and I have enough cables, switches, connectors, little breadboards, etc. to last me for the rest of my life.
Indulge me, it is building season and I like making things adjustable. I will post pictures - Ken
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It will be interesting to see what you come up with. If I understand, you will have an external panel to connect the programming leads of timer and ESC with the Jeti box, and a switch to disconnect (switch off) the ESC connection from the timer so that you can program or read the ESC.
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Once I got all of the info as to which port does what it was simple to set up an outside access panel to program both the timer and ESC (if necessary) without taking off hatches or disconnecting anything. $20 on Amazon and I have enough cables, switches, connectors, little breadboards, etc. to last me for the rest of my life.
Indulge me, it is building season and I like making things adjustable. I will post pictures - Ken
I do the same thing for the ESC, just run a jumper cable out and stow it for flight. I have to say though, I haven't touched the ESC in 150 flights after getting things sorted out.
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It will be interesting to see what you come up with. If I understand, you will have an external panel to connect the programming leads of timer and ESC with the Jeti box, and a switch to disconnect (switch off) the ESC connection from the timer so that you can program or read the ESC.
You got it. Main reason is trim sessions. Opening up the hood when you have to change the battery is one thing but "takeoff/land/tweak, takeoff/land/tweak gets to be a real pain. I have two flush mounted Male connectors through the side and a small three wire on/off switch. Super simple. I am finishing it tomorrow. Pictures
I was tempted to leave the ESC alone but my addiction to making things complicated won out. LL~
Ken
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I was tempted to leave the ESC alone but my addiction to making things complicated won out. LL~
Ken
Sometimes that's the fun part.
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Sometimes that's the fun part.
I promised pictures so here they are. First draft. It will be covered with a 1/32" balsa and monokoted to match the original cover. The open wires are just a pass through. Male on one end Female on the other. The little switches turn the timer off so you can program the ESC. It works. I can program both without opening the panel. I was shocked how cheap all of the DYI electronics stuff is. I have enough cables, connectors, switches, breadboards to last well into the 22 century. You can by 1 for $10 or 25 for $6.95. Amazon amazes me daily.
Ken
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The profile does not have room for all of the wiring necessary. Proof of concept 100% Success. Installed just the timer part into the Trifecta. Works as advertised. Nothing needs to be removed to change settings on the timer! With my bum knee it is a blessing to not have to kneel down and take off panels! #^
One thing I noticed while testing was that sometimes, not always, when the timer gives you the "bump" to let you know that it is counting down, the sound is a bit off/rough and the prop only turns a revolution or two, or not at all. If you move the prop afterword's there is a slight resistance. I suspect this is normal. I am still not completely familiar with it's noises. After doing this the countdown and the run goes normally. When I arm the ESC (Spin44 Pro) it also gives you a quick bump but the motor is free until the timer is turned on.
Ken
I forgot - I am doing the testing with a battery at storage voltage. It reads 40%.
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The profile does not have room for all of the wiring necessary. Proof of concept 100% Success. Installed just the timer part into the Trifecta. Works as advertised. Nothing needs to be removed to change settings on the timer! With my bum knee it is a blessing to not have to kneel down and take off panels! #^
One thing I noticed while testing was that sometimes, not always, when the timer gives you the "bump" to let you know that it is counting down, the sound is a bit off/rough and the prop only turns a revolution or two, or not at all. If you move the prop afterword's there is a slight resistance. I suspect this is normal. I am still not completely familiar with it's noises. After doing this the countdown and the run goes normally. When I arm the ESC (Spin44 Pro) it also gives you a quick bump but the motor is free until the timer is turned on.
Ken
I forgot - I am doing the testing with a battery at storage voltage. It reads 40%.
The brake function is on which works electrically. This will generally hold until the capacitors discharge or you recycle the ESC. I've noticed that with several ESC and timer combinations not just the Jeti and Fiorotti. The braking action is actually quite impressive. In a few of my tail cam videos you can see the shut down braking and the roll response from the deceleration.
Nice installation BTW
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The profile does not have room for all of the wiring necessary. Proof of concept 100% Success. Installed just the timer part into the Trifecta. Works as advertised. Nothing needs to be removed to change settings on the timer! With my bum knee it is a blessing to not have to kneel down and take off panels! #^
One thing I noticed while testing was that sometimes, not always, when the timer gives you the "bump" to let you know that it is counting down, the sound is a bit off/rough and the prop only turns a revolution or two, or not at all. If you move the prop afterword's there is a slight resistance. I suspect this is normal. I am still not completely familiar with it's noises. After doing this the countdown and the run goes normally. When I arm the ESC (Spin44 Pro) it also gives you a quick bump but the motor is free until the timer is turned on.
Ken
I forgot - I am doing the testing with a battery at storage voltage. It reads 40%.
After a run some ESC will have the break on until power is removed. I have noticed on some of mine the break is on even after power is removed until the capacitors in the ESC have time to discharge. When this happens the motor feel tight when trying to flip the prop. D>K
OOPS should have read the previous pose. So what Mark said.
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OOPS should have read the previous pose. So what Mark said.
Actually I am glad to hear it twice! So much to learn to get electric set up, so little to do once it is done! I have noticed a couple of things that can go "wrong" if you don't let the capacitors discharge. I feel relieved. I would have never guessed that I needed to release the break since I rarely park on hills! LL~ I guess it is like letting your Fox 35 cool before you try and start it again!
Ken
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Ken,
Nice application, and with the pictures I can understand the problem that you were solving. I have a box which houses the battery and electronics. It is easy to have the extensions accessible as there not any hatches. Extra wiring is somewhat hidden at the back of the box. Picture below.
I noticed the on/off switch for the ESC. You can tape that to "on" position and bury it or remove the switch and solder the wires together. The timer button serves as the switch.
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Ken,
Nice application, and with the pictures I can understand the problem that you were solving. I have a box which houses the batter and electronics. It is easy to have the extensions accessible as there not any hatches. Extra wiring is somewhat hidden at the back of the box. Picture below.
I noticed the on/off switch for the ESC. You can tape that to "on" position and bury it or remove the switch and solder the wires together. The timer button serves as the switch.
I'm with Fred. It would have been nice to understand the space constraint of the application. Would have reduced the number of efforts to make ideas clearer... End of the day cool application.
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As usual this thread has drifted off of the original question. I hope it has been answered satisfactorily. I have become personally more and more curious as to just how we maximize the potential of this remarkable timer and encourage it's development. So, my question is should this thread simply expand into that area, should I, or someone else, open a new one specifically dedicated to its airborne use? Or should I just stop being a PIA and go away? LL~
Ken
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As usual this thread has drifted off of the original question. I hope it has been answered satisfactorily. I have become personally more and more curious as to just how we maximize the potential of this remarkable timer and encourage it's development. So, my question is should this thread simply expand into that area, should I, or someone else, open a new one specifically dedicated to its airborne use? Or should I just stop being a PIA and go away? LL~
Ken
My honest opinion is that this timer is about as good as a simple device is going to work. To make improvements is a significant undertaking and the improvements likely insignificants. One thing that is required in that effort is a different propeller system. See the thread I started on precession. I started that thread as a result of some testing I did for a variable pitch propeller which, in turn, is part of an effort in exactly this direction. I have put the propeller effort in the parking lot for now but I should post some discussion on that topic.
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My honest opinion is that this timer is about as good as a simple device is going to work. To make improvements is a significant undertaking and the improvements likely insignificant.
So you are politely taking the third option? My purpose is not so much to improve the timer, that would be up to Rogerio if he wants to follow what we are saying and finds something useful but, the only way he will is if we are talking about our experiences. What I am after is a discussion on how to best use it. I will leave the how it works stuff to those with the background to understand it. You don't have to personally know how to build a race car to be a winning driver. The cat is out of the bag with active timers. You aren't going to see many electric top 20 planes without one very soon. In fact, you may not see many top 10 without one period pretty soon. The advantage over IC is just too big to ignore.
Ken
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I wouldn't mind digging into some of the features of the timer, I have about a dozen flights but have not adjusted anything but rpm, start up and flight time, so what exactly can you adjust and what are the effects?
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so what exactly can you adjust and what are the effects?
The basic functions/adjustments are here
http://www.cltimer.com/
http://www.cltimer.com/wa_files/CL_20Timer_20v6_20EN.pdf
One way to learn the timer functions and then optimize for your plane and preferences is to turn off the settings for Sensitivity, nose up, and G-force, and then use one at a time and see what they do.
Nose up adds RPM with the nose angled upward and goes back to base RPM when the nose is less than the set angle. Works upright or inverted.
G-force adds RPM when less than calibrated force is noted. The decrease from calibrated force is set by Rogerio based on his testing. The loss of force can be overhead due to gravity or at the upwind part of the circle with wind pushing the plane in. There is an arc at the end of the circle and overhead where RPM is added, and otherwise returns to set RPM.
Sensitivity, Max and Min work together to add or decrease RPM. This combination may decrease RPM below set RPM for braking. The above functions may seem to give braking when the RPM goes from added back to set.
I flew for some time with Sensitivity, Max and Min only and didn't use nose up or G-force. The timer worked fine, though it is more tunable to your specifics with all three functions. Sensitivity works best if the sensor is leveled correctly to the plane, the other functions are less critical. At the beginning, turn off the functions and trim the plane well. Wing up or down affect the sensor, so trim before using the functions. Each function may turn on and off at different times, or different positions on the clock in a loop and give a different feel. Sensitivity, with Max and Min. is most useful, in my opinion since it supplies increase and decrease RPM. After trim, fly with Sensitivity and M and M and adjust, then turn off and learn the other functions, then blend.
I hope this helps. There is not a simple list of settings for every plane and person.
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Teh basic functions/adjustments are here
http://www.cltimer.com/
http://www.cltimer.com/wa_files/CL_20Timer_20v6_20EN.pdf
One way to learn the timer functions and then optimize for your plane and preferences is to turn off the settings for Sensitivity, nose up, and G-force, and then use one at a time and see what they do.
Nose up adds RPM with the nose angled upward and goes back to base RPM when the nose is less than the set angle. Works upright or inverted.
G-force adds RPM when less than calibrated force is noted. The decrease from calibrated force is set by Rogerio based on his testing. The loss of force can be overhead due to gravity or at the upwind part of the circle with wind pushing the plane in. There is an arc at the end of the circle and overhead where RPM is added, and otherwise returns to set RPM.
Sensitivity, Max and Min work together to add or decrease RPM. This combination may decrease RPM below set RPM for braking. The above functions may seem to give braking when the RPM goes from added back to set.
I flew for some time with Sensitivity, Max and Min only and didn't use nose up or G-force. The timer worked fine, though it is more tunable to your specifics with all three functions. Sensitivity works best if the sensor is leveled correctly to the plane, the other functions are less critical. At the beginning, turn off the functions and trim the plane well. Wing up or down affect the sensor, so trim before using the functions. Each function may turn on and off at different times, or different positions on the clock in a loop and give a different feel. Sensitivity, with Max and Min. is most useful, in my opinion since it supplies increase and decrease RPM. After trim, fly with Sensitivity and M and M and adjust, then turn off and learn the other functions, then blend.
I hope this helps. There is not a simple list of settings for every plane and person.
Thanks Fred, this is what I was looking for, I'll have to wait until spring to play with it though. :-[
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Fred: You were right. Nose Up & G-Force make getting basic trim difficult. With them off, where should my acceleration settings be and what can help with overhead tension. I had to let an OH8 sag today in light winds.
Ken
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Ken, I read about the flight on the Trifecta thread. You mentioned lead out position as not yet finalized and that it may be part of the problem. If you want more line tension, then you can get there with speed as you asked. You could speed up the plane with base RPM and leave the other functions alone until you finish trim/lead outs. Alternately, turn up sensitivity and or Max. You then get a larger boost but keep lap time the same.
What is sensitivity? What is Max delta/how much is max over base?
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Ken, I read about the flight on the Trifecta thread. You mentioned lead out position as not yet finalized and that it may be part of the problem. If you want more line tension, then you can get there with speed as you asked. You could speed up the plane with base RPM and leave the other functions alone until you finish trim/lead outs. Alternately, turn up sensitivity and or Max. You then get a larger boost but keep lap time the same.
What is sensitivity? What is Max delta/how much is max over base?
I won't be able to check the settings till Monday. I will let you know - thanks for the help. I am really liking this timer.
I don't need more speed under 45. The only place I ran into anything I need to improve timer wise was the last loop of the sq8 and the OH8. Both may have been OK with more wind. One of the guys said I didn't make vertical and that will kill tension. I am a 5-10 kind of guy. Light winds are not my thing...neither are heavy ones!
Ken
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You can probably solve line tension with each timer function, but with different unintended consequences. First, just a simple increase of base RPM, but at 5.2s/lap you may not wish that solution. I fly a 67.5 – 70ish foot radius or center to center, and that at about 5.3 – 5.4 lap time. You could move to longer lines and more speed with similar lap time. Not necessarily what you wish, but one way. Longer lines allow for more time to recover speed with longer “flats.”
When I flew on Sensitivity, and Max and Min (without nose up or G-force), Sensitivity was about 15 – 20 and mostly 17 or 18. That with a Max and Min delta of 80ish from base. That gave significant acceleration and deceleration and worked well. When other functions are mixed in to accelerate, the Sensitivity may work well about 8 – 10. Max and Min deltas stayed about the same, but all adjusted to fit your style.
Nose up will add acceleration, no deceleration, but return to base RPM. It can be very helpful. Nose up adds 1us of pulse width for each click (see below). From the instructions, the timer came set at 20us. I turned that off and flew with sensitivity initially. Nose up seems to work noticeably above 5 and I don’t normally use more than 10us, but that is just preference. It works in a “climb or cross overhead” as in the instructions. If nose up is used without other functions, you may wish more like 20, or more. That will help you to see what it does.
G-force seems to accelerate when force is low, so overhead. Gravity pulling the plane will remove 1G of force. It also seems to accelerate when upwind and the plane is blown in with decreased force/line tension.
Any of the speed increases, or deceleration decrease, may help line tension overall and solve your wishes. Each speed up gives a different feel to the flight. For example, increase base RPM will help the line tension where you want it, but at the sacrifice of a overall faster flight and more battery use. Nose up will add acceleration with the nose up. But, if the wind comes up and you have enough energy and speed, nose up will still add acceleration. Of course you can adjust it for conditions. G-force is very useful overhead and upwind, or helping in windy conditions, but may still be “on” a bit as you pass over the top of a wingover. As you use them you will easily accommodate and find them useful. I still suggesting using one at a time until you are used to it and can feel what that function does. Then when you want more or less acceleration in a specific area, you can decide which to adjust.
http://www.cltimer.com/wa_files/CL_20Timer_20v6_20EN.pdf
Still interested? Some of my experience and idea are below. Definitely not engineering explanations. You may have some differences for different RPM ranges based on prop and line length.
One click of RPM adjustment for base or Max and Min is 0.002 sec to the pulse width and you can see this on the Jeti Box. For reference, one click of nose up is 0.001 second.
The timer controls from 1.200ms turn on to 2.000ms max or 800ms and timer has 400 steps, so 0.002ms/step.
Flying at about 10,400 RPM for about 5.2 second laps will give about 200 rpm for 0.1 second lap time change.
ESC rpm Max to Min is about 7500 to 11,500 or 4000 rpm in 400 steps or about 10 rpm for step.
To change lap time 0.1 seconds may take 20ish timer clicks.
If you add acceleration, you will obviously get more laps in the same flight time but use more battery. If you keep adding lap speed and acceleration, be careful of battery use. If you like all of the functions turned up, turn down the total flight time, or slow the lap speed. A change of lap time of 0.05 can be significant.
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About the accelerometer sensor. I just spent a couple of hours making a really nice adjustable shelf to mount the sensor in my removable bottom hatch. When I put it in the plane to see how it fit I discovered that I had marked it's location on the C/G, not behind it. Am I screwed?
Ken
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I have a friend with a sensor mounted ahead of the wing under the battery. It seems to work as well as it did when he had it a bit behind the CG. My sensor is well behind the CG, about 4 inches. Level and wires forward are necessary, and the longitudinal position seems less important.
I thought your bottom hatch was at about the trailing edge for adjusting the control system?
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I have a friend with a sensor mounted ahead of the wing under the battery. It seems to work as well as it did when he had it a bit behind the CG. My sensor is well behind the CG, about 4 inches. Level and wires forward are necessary, and the longitudinal position seems less important.
I thought your bottom hatch was at about the trailing edge for adjusting the control system?
There are two. Front on goes from the back of the motor to 4" behind the LE. Aft one is from the TE to 4" aft. These are load bearing hatches similar to what you find on real airplanes.
Ken
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I am having a strange issue with the timer. The way my flying group describes it is "the plane has no drive on outsides". I don't feel it from the inside, but these are some top experts noticing it so I can't ignore it. I know of nothing other than perhaps the accelerometer sensor that would even have a clue if the plane is turning inside or outside. As best as I could check it at the field it appeared to be level. I have nose up set to 6 and g-force way up there at 22. I have no idea what the upper limits are for either.
Ken
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If I recall correctly, you found a wing problem and fixed it?? I would guess that with your observers the wings are level, and all of the basic trim is good. I mention this because wings not level will give different sensor tilt for insides and outsides, but again, probably would have been noted.
Sensor side to side tilt will affect insides versus outsides. The sensor must be level as the plane flies, hopefully as on the bench, but not necessarily. A very small change in sensor tilt can fix the problem or make it worse if you choose the wrong side. I believe that you have yours on a tiltable mount. Tilt it very little on one side and try it, and if worse, then reverse. Which side is needed tilt is different if mounted sticky up or sticky down, so just try a little tilt. I tried about 1/64th under just the side edge and almost could not tell that it moved. I wasn't sure if the sticky tape absorbed most of the wedge, but it worked. I did it wrong way first and nothing drastic, just a bit worse.
I use sensitivity in the 6 - 10 range, nose up in the 6 - 8 range and G-force 5 - 10. With that, I seem to get about 500 rpm max over level lap and that is very adequate. When you use high numbers, you may be using the functions and hide a trim or lap time problem. You can just run the number to the top to see how far it goes and then come back to your setting. I get that guestimate by running the plane help level for 20ish seconds with G-force off, and then interrogating the ESC for max rpm in the memory function. Use that number as your base rpm, and then fly the plane with functions as you like including G-force and again interrogate the timer for max rpm. My delta is about 500 with base in the 10,200 range. Lower base and you might want and need less total in the Max. The ESC max rpm is a bit of a coarse measure, but you get a good idea. Alternately and probably better is the ENGINE rpm app for iPhone that Brett mentioned on another thread. I have not used it.
You could fly very short flights and use the method to try to see if outsides gave much different Max rpm versus insides. Since those maneuvers don't need much gain versus vertical maneuvers, I not sure the ESC function would find it, probably the tach.
I did have a difference in insides versus outsides though I was the only one to seem to notice. I flew for a long time that way and it was never mentioned. A minor tilt was done as above and solved the problem. The extra acceleration/drive made a difference most noticeable to me flying, but clearly helped equalize that drive.
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If I recall correctly, you found a wing problem and fixed it?? I would guess that with your observers the wings are level, and all of the basic trim is good. I mention this because wings not level will give different sensor tilt for insides and outsides, but again, probably would have been noted.
Well I have just learned something. I had no idea that the sensor needed to be level in both axis. Thank you. The wings were not level today. Off just a bit but not enough to stop me from getting in two patterns. I had to adjust the flap pushrod and that required me to recenter the flaps. I missed it by a tad but let it go. The plane has real potential. That will be fixed next time out.
Ken
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A little more information for your questions.
I am running a V6.3 and my G-force is in increments of 5. The range goes to 100% and I have not used over 10%, just my preference. As the plane passes a point overhead where gravity is pulling into the lines, the G-force formula will activate. I will still be activated after you get overhead until the program determines that G-force is back in range. You might sustain some acceleration just past the top of a wingover, easily managed, but could be more with higher G-force? What problem is being solved with higher G-force and could it be solved with trim or the other functions?
As to levelling the sensor on the ground. If done correctly, you level the sensor to how the plane actually sits in the air. Most of the time level is level in a trimmed plane, but some planes fly visibly nose up, or wing up or down. Level it on the bench, then flip it over and it should be same level numbers upright and inverted (on the Jeti box) on the bench.
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What problem is being solved with higher G-force and could it be solved with trim or the other functions?
It is not so much a "problem" as it is a preference. I am getting on in years and holding the back bent position in the OH8 is getting more difficult. I am pretty good at flying the behind the head part blind if I have good line tension. I also like the feel of the power boost at the top of the inside loop of the V8 and the climb on the hourglass. Those all appear to be the result of G-Force.
Ken
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Problem is being solved, limited mobility of age. Or problem is driving preferences. I think we are about the same on age and mobility :-)
I try to balance the accelerators to not get the boost noticeable where I might also get a bit of torque. Thus my balanced numbers on nose up, sensitivity, and G-force, but just preference.
Another hint of the timer being off level may be subtle difference of lap time inverted and upright. I can sometimes pick that up if I time 10 taps for one total and then compare to 10 the other way. The difference may be small, so If I have questions, I retest to see if the result is reproducible.
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Something on another thread started one of those "things that make you go Hummm" moments. Up till switching to the Fiorotti timer I had been using fixed rpm types where "boost" was really recovery from loss. What happens to boost when the base RPMs are at the high end for the prop you are using? I think I know the answer, but I would like to confirm - you have to make sure that the maximum boost does not exceed the motor's ability to provide it because it will literally "die trying". Am I wrong here?
Ken
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I am getting inconsistent breaking in the 3rd loop of both inside and outside loops. Sometimes it acts normally and I get a soft break as it goes over the top but on the third loop I am getting a much harder break. If I don't feel it in time is is causing the third loop to tighten with little time to correct, especially on the insides. My settings for light wind are sensitivity 13, Nose Up 10, G-Force 12. I am flying a 5.6 lap time on 65' lines. Overall I am very happy with my settings except in the loops. The round 8's are fine, just the third loop.
Ken
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It has taken some time, experimentation and help from those that went there before but finally I can say that I have this beast figured out and what I am most impressed with now that I have it "trimmed" is how smooth it is. It is like flying with an intelligent Hubin timer. No crazy RPM swings just steady power where you need it and smooth backing off where you don't. I hope that this is only the beginning. y1
Ken
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I am getting inconsistent breaking in the 3rd loop of both inside and outside loops. Sometimes it acts normally and I get a soft break as it goes over the top but on the third loop I am getting a much harder break. If I don't feel it in time is is causing the third loop to tighten with little time to correct, especially on the insides. My settings for light wind are sensitivity 13, Nose Up 10, G-Force 12. I am flying a 5.6 lap time on 65' lines. Overall I am very happy with my settings except in the loops. The round 8's are fine, just the third loop.
Ken
It has taken some time, experimentation and help from those that went there before but finally I can say that I have this beast figured out and what I am most impressed with now that I have it "trimmed" is how smooth it is. It is like flying with an intelligent Hubin timer. No crazy RPM swings just steady power where you need it and smooth backing off where you don't. I hope that this is only the beginning. y1
Ken
What are your current settings and lap time for comparison to above?
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What are your current settings and lap time for comparison to above?
Lap 5.4, Base "RPM" value 295, Max Delta 90, Min Delta 80, Nose Up 10, G-Gorce 15, Sensitivity 11. Most of my issues from before were from a misaligned accelerometer.
Ken
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I put this document together for my own personal use. The idea was to bring key information together, in one place, so that when I am working with this timer, and have a problem or question I could go to one place and not have to search and read through all the threads. After reading through this thread I can see many useful additions to be added. So, it’s a work in progress. But for now it may be useful to someone just getting started with the timer. All of the settings and procedures can be a bit overwhelming to someone just seeing this stuff for the first time.
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Frank.
The "Tips and Troubleshooting" document is a good thing to have with you when at the field. I wish that it was available back when I got the new Fiorotti timer.
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Frank.
The "Tips and Troubleshooting" document is a good thing to have with you when at the field. I wish that it was available back when I got the new Fiorotti timer.
ME TOO #^!
Fred Underwood guided me through the learning curve successfully but each and every one of the things covered here was an extra flight or more on the learning curve, in some cases a head scratch and in one case a "how could I be so stupid" moment. I am printing this out and putting it in my tool box along with my settings log today. This is an incredibly flexible timer, but it can also be a giant PIA if you don't set it right. y1
Ken
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I put this document together for my own personal use. The idea was to bring key information together, in one place, so that when I am working with this timer, and have a problem or question I could go to one place and not have to search and read through all the threads. After reading through this thread I can see many useful additions to be added. So, it’s a work in progress. But for now it may be useful to someone just getting started with the timer. All of the settings and procedures can be a bit overwhelming to someone just seeing this stuff for the first time.
Frank, that is a great reference.
A few opinions and suggestions are offered. In V.4 the sensor and timer were separate pieces and could be swapped with proper technique. Now the unit is one piece, at least V6.4. The C value, sensor constant is the level reference point and should not be changed. If you have flat level table, you should see that the Y value is already equal to C. The C value is stored in the timer for its level reference and should not be changed. If Y and C are not equal, check your level reference table several times by rotating the sensor in several different directions. Signals from the sensor are still going to be based on the original C value of the sensor. Think of C as the electronic neutral point of the sensor, not changeable. You can manipulate the recorded C value, but the sensor is actually sending its constant.
It is a good idea to also know the level X or roll axis value as seen on a level table.
I find that installing the sensor and obtaining the X, and Y equal C, values with the plane level, then flipping the plane over and getting the same values is the best procedure. I can usually get within +/- one number, but I may have to shim slightly if my mounting spot is not exactly aligned with X and Y of the plane.
That mounting will work well if the plane actually flies when trimmed as you guesstimated on your sensor mount. If there is a slight bit of wing up or down, then the sensor will react to that, similarly if the plane has a slight nose up or down pitch. A good reason to keep acceleration and deceleration off until trimming of the plane is done.
As far as settings for the timer, much depends on personal preference. You may want the reassurance of hearing and feeling the timer accelerate and decelerate at first. Noticeable auditory changes may be accompanied by visual changes of torque and sudden speed change. One way to use the timer is to find a base speed that you would use without added acceleration or deceleration, then use the functions to slightly modify that. Use functions somewhat like a trim tool. If you try to slow the level flight and use functions to overcome, then you will see and hear the timer action, and so will the judges. It may be a distraction. If the plane speed is already adequate, the back off a few clicks of base RPM and use smallish numbers. I like about 7 - 8 of nose up, about 7 - 8 of sensitivity, and 5 - 10 of G force. Deltas for Max and Min in the 50 range. Again, it all depends on your style.
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The C value, sensor constant is the level reference point and should not be changed.
When the timer calibrates in the air is it doing anything to "C"?
Ken
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It doesn't change C. Calibration establishes the measured baseline G-Force for the given speed/lap time. You can change the RPM a click or two, fly the approximate 4 laps for calibration, then look at the G-force value in the Jeti box. G-force will change, C does not. C is linked to the inherent value that the cesnor is sending out at neutral, assuming that I understand and explain correctly as non-engineer and non-programmer.
G-force is around 3 for 70ish feet and 5.2ish lap times.
G-force function will use the calibrated G-force as its target to measure against as to when to add RPM.
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It doesn't change C. Calibration establishes the measured baseline G-Force for the given speed/lap time.
As with anything technical, answers only raise more questions. With my my plane upright and level, "C" has a value of 408.
I have gotten "Y" to read 408 upright and 407 upside down. This is as close as you can probably get. Since "C" does not change, how can I be sure that it is a level reading? Are they shipped with the accelerometer leveled because I don't recall ever doing that separately and when I first set mine up I had no idea what I didn't know.
Ken
ps - How does one change a thread name? Rogerio's name is spelled wrong.
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Likely the sensor constant is determined on a level table and set as C as a timer and sensor are assembled. You don't need/want to change the C value, as timer and sensor are now paired and C set as shipped. That is my surmise.
As far as title, I think that only the original poster who labled the thread can change it. Perhaps a moderator. You can change the title each time as I just did, but it will not stick.
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Fred,
Just for the record, when I referred to the C value I did not state that the G Force Calibration procedure changed the C value in any way shape or form. That procedure is automatic and takes place after an RPM change, or by changing the G-Force % parameter. No effect on C.
Since I started using this timer I have considered you the “go to guy” for explaining how it works. If the C value can never be changed, then why would pressing the Start button while on the ACC Status screen show a change in the C value? If it has no effect, what would be the purpose of allowing you to do so?
I have worked with several flight stabilizer units in RC planes. With those units you would place the device in the plane, and then level the plane, after which you would go through a procedure (like press a button) which would essentially tell the sensor that this is the level position to be used as a reference.
I have used this procedure several times now with the Ver6 timer successfully.
Like I said I have no first hand knowledge for how this thing is actually programmed, only what I have read and observed. Maybe I just got lucky. Going forward I will go back to what I described in the document as Method 1 for leveling the sensor.
Frank
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Frenk,
I am sorry for any offense, it was not intended. I didn't think that you stated or implied that G-force calibration changed the C value, but I thought that was the question of Ken.
When the timer calibrates in the air is it doing anything to "C"?
Ken
As to why C is changeable? My guess is that as the timer is assembled, one of the last steps is adding the sensor to the board and then setting the C value using a level table. Perhaps it then could have the function locked, or that may add an extra processing step. As an aside, I used to switch the timer to sensor in V4 and could them leave a sensor in a plane and use the timer in another. I have done so by setting C on a table. Meaning changing the C value in tshe timer to match the used sensor. I may have even mentioned it in the past, but don't recommend it. I suspect that this caused trouble for others. You then need to keep careful track of the C value of every sensor and set the timer to it.
Again, my apology. I appreciate the information that you compiled and shared.
Fred
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Fred,
I didn't take any offense at all. I just thought that something I wrote led Ken to believe G-Force was impacting the C value. No worries! Thank you for all the valuable information you have provided over the years. I plan to do some more testing on the level setting stuff. All is well.
Frank
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Open question to the Fiorotti users. Can the accelerometer cable be spliced and if so where is the best place. Close to the acc or close to the timer or in-between. I have it mounted where I need to separate the cable to fully remove a hatch. Probably a Quad P on my part. Also, if I do splice the wire will it damage my settings if separated with power on the timer? I would most likely never do that, but I would like to know anyway. Finally, a related question. Can extra accelerometers be ordered or are they paired to the timer. Reason I asked that is one of my group had one go bad on Igor's timer and he was able to simply swap it with one from another plane. I like that since all of my competition planes use the same timer.
Ken
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Ken,
It's probably not recommended but I have spliced the cable and inserted a connector to facilitate installation. If done properly you should have no issues. It shouldn't matter where you make the splice. I don't know what would happen if you unplugged the sensor with power applied. I would just avoid doing so. Lastly, I'm not sure about replacing the sensor or if you can even get one. Fred has some experience with doing that with older versions of the timer. He should be able to provide more info on that.
Frank
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After some discussions with Fred, I decided to remove the Alternate Method for installing and leveling the sensor from the document I posted earlier in this thread. I have attached the updated version. Also, added some bench testing results to this one.
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The sensor cable can be spliced. I use male and female pin headers. I simply use a section of 4 pin cut from a longer strip. Cut the cable and solder and shrink wrap each wire matching male and female. I splice for profile fuse where the sensor cable needs to pass down a tunnel in the fuse to the battery/esc/motor mouint box. I can't pass the timer or sensor. I tape the male and female together after assembly so that they can't be accidentally separated.
As far as separating with power on, I wouild not. It is recommended that when programming, power be added after connecting the Jeti to timer. Power is last connected, and first off.
Early timers, V4's, had plug in sensors. The problem is that sensor and timer are matched, and that accounts for the C value on sthe screen of X, Y, and C. I think of the C value as a neutral point for the electronics in a sensor. If you take a timer from a sensor in one plane to attach to another sensor, the C number will not match, unless by chance they have the same value. I haven't seen sensors for sale, and as noted, they are now sold soldered to the timer. Can it be done and work? If you wish to take the risk. The timer and sensor will look like they are working, but the neutral point may be off. Inputs may not be equal upright and inverted.
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I have found a solution to the one thing that I don't like about the timer. I cannot see the LED clearly in flight, so I tried making it a tube light. I cut a piece of 5mm ID x 8mm OD clear polycarbonate tubing and put it over the led. When it is lit it fills the walls of the tube and makes the light extremely visible. 5 x 7 would be better but I couldn't find any. Sorry about the end of the video. It was so short that YouTube made it a "short" and you can't edit shorts.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/M-acFXj5XIw
Ken
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I just wanted to follow up on the timer light. I have flown it twice since adding the tube and the difference is night and day. The light is just as bright but three times larger. Now I really like it!
Ken
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I am considering going from5s to 6s batteries. Both the JetSpinPro 44 and the timer aledgedly "autodetect" the "s" value but, having done that once in the past, I got an enormous jump in RPM (from a 5.5 to a 4.1 lap times). Should I lower the base value in the timer before I fly it and if so about (% wise) how much should I lower it?
Ken
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I've not tried it, so I don't have the answer. As a side issue, I don't care for autodetect. With autodetect, any S value works. With specified S, you can't get the system to run if you put in the wrong S pack. If I change anything significant, I check RPM and adjust before flight.
Does you post mean that you were running 4K - 5.5K rpm range? That is below my ESC min rpm.
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I've not tried it, so I don't have the answer. As a side issue, I don't care for autodetect. With autodetect, any S value works. With specified S, you can't get the system to run if you put in the wrong S pack. If I change anything significant, I check RPM and adjust before flight.
Does you post mean that you were running 4K - 5.5K rpm range? That is below my ESC min rpm.
Sorry, those were the lap time differentials by simply changing battery from 5s to 6s.
Ken
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I am considering going from5s to 6s batteries. Both the JetSpinPro 44 and the timer aledgedly "autodetect" the "s" value but, having done that once in the past, I got an enormous jump in RPM (from a 5.5 to a 4.1 lap times). Should I lower the base value in the timer before I fly it and if so about (% wise) how much should I lower it?
Ken
I would by 10% and reset to 1 minute flight time just be safe.
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I would by 10% and reset to 1 minute flight time just be safe.
Man after 60+ years of running IC, having to learn everything all over again is, well FUN! Thanks, I am going to do just that!
Ken
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Man after 60+ years of running IC, having to learn everything all over again is, well FUN! Thanks, I am going to do just that!
Ken
No kidding...lol Be ready though, as you said the timer is supposed to detect cell counts so reducing the value could reduce the rpm, please let us know how it goes.
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No kidding...lol Be ready though, as you said the timer is supposed to detect cell counts so reducing the value could reduce the rpm, please let us know how it goes.
Crist Rigotti runs the same rig I do and he thinks it will not affect the RPM's too but alas, we may never know. Turns out that the 6s that I have are equipped with XT-60's and the ship in question has Deans. Such is life.
Ken
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Crist Rigotti runs the same rig I do and he thinks it will not affect the RPM's too but alas, we may never know. Turns out that the 6s that I have are equipped with XT-60's and the ship in question has Deans. Such is life.
Ken
These are handy.
https://www.amazon.com/Venom-XT60-Deans-Battery-Adapter/dp/B007S8FE76/ref=sr_1_13?keywords=xt60+to+deans+adapter&sr=8-13
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Crist Rigotti runs the same rig I do and he thinks it will not affect the RPM's too but alas, we may never know. Turns out that the 6s that I have are equipped with XT-60's and the ship in question has Deans. Such is life.
Ken
I didn't think that it changed rpm, but you seemed to indicate that it did when you switched before. Easy to check with a tach, 5s and then 6s and then not waste flying time at the field. The adapters would make it possible to check and see what you get before investing in batteries or changing plugs.
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Could this ESC be used by the Fiorotti timer? Does anybody have experience with it on any timer?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/195005061663?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20201210111451%26meid%3D2d29362b41494b9db359905cfa068cea%26pid%3D101196%26rk%3D5%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D134391259328%26itm%3D195005061663%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DSimplAMLv5PairwiseWebWithBBEV2bAndUBSourceDemotionWithUltimatelyBoughtOfCoviewV1%26brand%3DUnbranded&_trksid=p2047675.c101196.m2219&amdata=cksum%3A1950050616632d29362b41494b9db359905cfa068cea%7Cenc%3AAQAHAAABMIep8YrnpoI5Ip1Fr26ya5Zdwg2V78Yl01uYLsdPZcFTvxKxDts2M2LiSIpUM3yyPCg4I%252FI%252F%252BBr%252B3lbC%252BxYqInYGBmzIxc4EMw3YF0EDxTKyDXYEffo6WPiYU3tSSaN17H65XWvDWa8bn1XlynKkcdf7ZazQit4FemQ0b5Ce88Fg%252FtCJJHRjOkyTmyKlVTueT%252FkhpBDTUQ233I020NlHu5w30xSnhObNQGS9eFPSNJRBeL%252BYf%252BCepZYRqFStJyUenTa%252FhtBBvOFAyZbgYr18gXJObm%252FPL6BKcDlx2zqzLfwByGCtb5wr3Dwrmz81gDGqpAgYs3aujzxtrfUp8G3XQYOZk%252BHrLvvfbgLoWKa1cFTK8NSsAT0cNNyHv%252FUlQlfvogVX2g9p%252BsqGO0vpKTQ4wOk%253D%7Campid%3APL_CLK%7Cclp%3A2047675
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Could this ESC be used by the Fiorotti timer? Does anybody have experience with it on any timer?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/195005061663?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20201210111451%26meid%3D2d29362b41494b9db359905cfa068cea%26pid%3D101196%26rk%3D5%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D134391259328%26itm%3D195005061663%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DSimplAMLv5PairwiseWebWithBBEV2bAndUBSourceDemotionWithUltimatelyBoughtOfCoviewV1%26brand%3DUnbranded&_trksid=p2047675.c101196.m2219&amdata=cksum%3A1950050616632d29362b41494b9db359905cfa068cea%7Cenc%3AAQAHAAABMIep8YrnpoI5Ip1Fr26ya5Zdwg2V78Yl01uYLsdPZcFTvxKxDts2M2LiSIpUM3yyPCg4I%252FI%252F%252BBr%252B3lbC%252BxYqInYGBmzIxc4EMw3YF0EDxTKyDXYEffo6WPiYU3tSSaN17H65XWvDWa8bn1XlynKkcdf7ZazQit4FemQ0b5Ce88Fg%252FtCJJHRjOkyTmyKlVTueT%252FkhpBDTUQ233I020NlHu5w30xSnhObNQGS9eFPSNJRBeL%252BYf%252BCepZYRqFStJyUenTa%252FhtBBvOFAyZbgYr18gXJObm%252FPL6BKcDlx2zqzLfwByGCtb5wr3Dwrmz81gDGqpAgYs3aujzxtrfUp8G3XQYOZk%252BHrLvvfbgLoWKa1cFTK8NSsAT0cNNyHv%252FUlQlfvogVX2g9p%252BsqGO0vpKTQ4wOk%253D%7Campid%3APL_CLK%7Cclp%3A2047675
I was just looking at these earlier today! Looking for a programming card though.
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When I started with the Fiorotti timer, I tried a Castle ESC. It worked in the sense of powering up and flying, but the response was too slow for changing rpm, so the acceleration and deceleration were slight behind needed. It worked at a sport level, but not for competition. That is a basic problem for accelerometers. It will likely take someone trying it to find out, but my guess is that it will be too slow. On the other hand, the price is not bad for a trial.
Programming looks to be RC transmitter only at least for now. Some of the brands share programming cards, again found by trial and error. In the print, the seller say that multiple parameters can be set by remote control and then the defaults can be restored by remote control, presumably meaning RC transmitter.
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Could be worth the price just for the copper.
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Is there an equal to the Jeti Spin 66 - non pro for the active timers?
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Just hoping someone might know if a Fiorotti is DOA if it no longer sends an arming signal to the ESC. I am unclear whether this is hardwired or firmware. I suspect it is hardwired on the circuit board so I am SOL but it is worth asking. At least it can be used to test mount in a new plane along with the burned up motor I have.
In a fit of stupidity, I didn't check the plugs and got the power lead on the wrong pin. At $90+shipping @ it may be worth trying to fix, if it can be fixed.
It is a shame that we can't make the cable connections "fool proof". It really isn't that hard.
Ken
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Can someone who actually uses Fiorotti Timer tell me if there is possibility to adjust braking intensity independently from acceleration? The goal is to make braking to kick much earlier and harder than accelerating.
Thanks for your input!
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Can someone who actually uses Fiorotti Timer tell me if there is possibility to adjust braking intensity independently from acceleration? The goal is to make braking to kick much earlier and harder than accelerating.
Thanks for your input!
I don't think there is. There is only one setting for sensitivity. I have to admit, it would be nice. I have two places that the brake kicks when it shouldn't. The 4th corners of the Wingover and the Hourglass. If I hit them hard the motor nearly stops for a split second. I just live with it because it is not causing any real problem.
Ken
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Maybe in future updates that will be available.
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Maybe in future updates that will be available.
Please make that ASAP. Standard symmetrical adjustment of sensitivity is not enough, because some people (like me) doesn't have quick reaction and therefore require much more time to control trajectory in the bottom part of maneuvers.
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Please make that ASAP. Standard symmetrical adjustment of sensitivity is not enough, because some people (like me) doesn't have quick reaction and therefore require much more time to control trajectory in the bottom part of maneuvers.
I don't have anything to do with programming the timer. I am just a user. Maybe let Fiorotti know your feelings.
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Friends,
Decreasing the RPM_Max setting will solve most of the above cases. I can add two Sensitivity adjustments "Acceleration and Deceleration or Brake" without any problems. The current setting already has a differential where it accelerates more than it brakes with the same setting.
I got great help from Fred Underwood with writing the manual, my English is bad. Attached manual to help everyone.
For sending a private message rogerio@cltimer.com
Rogerio Fiorotti
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This is exactly why I use this timer. Thank You!
Ken
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I have been using Fioratti 6.5v and I am
Loving it . G force can be independently adjusted where as 6.4 the brake/Acc is equal.
Play with min setting and also go to esc Manuel braking to change braking strength and speed of brake plus
Using a higher c battery. Hope this help, cheers.
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I can add two Sensitivity adjustments "Acceleration and Deceleration or Brake" without any problems.
Yes, that would be really nice to have.
Thanks, Rogerio.
Vitalis P.
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Has anyone got new version of the timer with separate sensitivity adjustment for acceleration and deceleration?
Is there any way to upgrade firmware without sending it to Brasil?
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I am considering using a cheaper ESC for a project. Will the timer work correctly with the BadAss 35? The project will be a twin and the prospect of putting 2 Spin 33's in it has my wallet vibrating.
Ken
Oh - can someone answer Vitalis question in the last post?
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OK, the wallet survived the Spin 33 dual ESC's. Now I have a specific Fiorotti question that I have posed on other threads but I am hoping to get an answer from the Fiorotti community. If you are using two ESC's in a twin it is suggested that the following be done:
#1 The On/Off switch for EXC#2 be left in the Off position permanently.
#2 The power lead (red wire) from the #2 BEC be cut.
Is this correct? Inquiring minds want to know. And:
#3 Will the ESC or Timer be damaged if the Red Wire is Not cut?
#4 Does the Jeti box connected to the timer #3 set of pins (bottom set) get it's power from the center pin?
Ken
Oh - still waiting for an answer to Vitalis question below. FYI I have one of the newer timers but have not used it yet.