Quote from: Ken Culbertson on December 16, 2021, 11:36:27 AM
The profile does not have room for all of the wiring necessary.  Proof of concept 100% Success.  Installed just the timer part into the Trifecta.  Works as advertised.  Nothing needs to be removed to change settings on the timer!  With my bum knee it  is a blessing to not have to kneel down and take off panels!

One thing I noticed while testing was that sometimes, not always, when the timer gives you the "bump" to let you know that it is counting down, the sound is a bit off/rough and the prop only turns a revolution or two, or not at all.  If you move the prop afterword's there is a slight resistance.  I suspect this is normal.  I am still not completely familiar with it's noises.  After doing this the countdown and the run goes normally.  When I arm the ESC (Spin44 Pro) it also gives you a quick bump but the motor is free until the timer is turned on.

Ken

I forgot - I am doing the testing with a battery at storage voltage.  It reads 40%.

The brake function is on which works electrically. This will generally hold until the capacitors discharge or you recycle the ESC. I've noticed that with several ESC and timer combinations not just the Jeti and Fiorotti. The braking action is actually quite impressive. In a few of my tail cam videos you can see the shut down braking and the roll response from the deceleration.

Nice installation BTW

Quote from: Ken Culbertson on December 16, 2021, 11:36:27 AM
The profile does not have room for all of the wiring necessary.  Proof of concept 100% Success.  Installed just the timer part into the Trifecta.  Works as advertised.  Nothing needs to be removed to change settings on the timer!  With my bum knee it  is a blessing to not have to kneel down and take off panels!

One thing I noticed while testing was that sometimes, not always, when the timer gives you the "bump" to let you know that it is counting down, the sound is a bit off/rough and the prop only turns a revolution or two, or not at all.  If you move the prop afterword's there is a slight resistance. I suspect this is normal.  I am still not completely familiar with it's noises.  After doing this the countdown and the run goes normally.  When I arm the ESC (Spin44 Pro) it also gives you a quick bump but the motor is free until the timer is turned on.

Ken

I forgot - I am doing the testing with a battery at storage voltage.  It reads 40%.

After a run some ESC will have the break on until power is removed.  I have noticed on some of mine the break is on even after power is removed until the capacitors in the ESC have time to discharge.  When this happens the motor feel tight when trying to flip the prop. 

OOPS should have read the previous pose.  So what Mark said.

Quote from: John Rist on December 16, 2021, 01:22:22 PM
OOPS should have read the previous pose.  So what Mark said.

Actually I am glad to hear it twice!  So much to learn to get electric set up, so little to do once it is done!   I have noticed a couple of things that can go "wrong" if you don't let the capacitors discharge.  I feel relieved.  I would have never guessed that I needed to release the break since I rarely park on hills!   I guess it is like letting your Fox 35 cool before you try and start it again!

Ken

Ken,
Nice application, and with the pictures I can understand the problem that you were solving.  I have a box which houses the battery and electronics.  It is easy to have the extensions accessible as there not any hatches.  Extra wiring is somewhat hidden at the back of the box.  Picture below.
 
I noticed the on/off switch for the ESC.  You can tape that to "on" position and bury it or remove the switch and solder the wires together.  The timer button serves as the switch.

Quote from: Fred Underwood on December 16, 2021, 05:16:51 PM
Ken,
Nice application, and with the pictures I can understand the problem that you were solving.  I have a box which houses the batter and electronics.  It is easy to have the extensions accessible as there not any hatches.  Extra wiring is somewhat hidden at the back of the box.  Picture below.
 
I noticed the on/off switch for the ESC.  You can tape that to "on" position and bury it or remove the switch and solder the wires together.  The timer button serves as the switch.

I'm with Fred. It would have been nice to understand the space constraint of the application. Would have reduced the number of efforts to make ideas clearer...  End of the day cool application.

As usual this thread has drifted off of the original question.  I hope it has been answered satisfactorily.  I have become personally more and more curious as to just how we maximize the potential of this remarkable timer and encourage it's development.  So, my question is should this thread simply expand into that area, should I, or someone else, open a new one specifically dedicated to its airborne use?  Or should I just stop being a PIA and go away? 

Ken

Quote from: Ken Culbertson on December 17, 2021, 12:00:57 PM
As usual this thread has drifted off of the original question.  I hope it has been answered satisfactorily.  I have become personally more and more curious as to just how we maximize the potential of this remarkable timer and encourage it's development.  So, my question is should this thread simply expand into that area, should I, or someone else, open a new one specifically dedicated to its airborne use?  Or should I just stop being a PIA and go away? 

Ken

My honest opinion is that this timer is about as good as a simple device is going to work. To make improvements is a significant undertaking and the improvements likely insignificants. One thing that is required in that effort is a different propeller system. See the thread I started on precession. I started that thread as a result of some testing I did for a variable pitch propeller which, in turn, is part of an effort in exactly this direction. I have put the propeller effort in the parking lot for now but I should post some discussion on that topic.

Quote from: Mark wood on December 17, 2021, 12:17:01 PM
My honest opinion is that this timer is about as good as a simple device is going to work. To make improvements is a significant undertaking and the improvements likely insignificant.

So you are politely taking the third option?  My purpose is not so much to improve the timer, that would be up to Rogerio if he wants to follow what we are saying and finds something useful but, the only way he will is if we are talking about our experiences.    What I am after is a discussion on how to best use it.  I will leave the how it works stuff to those with the background to understand it.  You don't have to personally know how to build a race car to be a winning driver.  The cat is out of the bag with active timers.  You aren't going to see many electric top 20 planes without one very soon.  In fact, you may not see many top 10 without one period pretty soon.  The advantage over IC is just too big to ignore.

Ken

I wouldn't mind digging into some of the features of the timer, I have about a dozen flights but have not adjusted anything but rpm, start up and flight time, so what exactly can you adjust and what are the effects?

Quote from: Dwayne Donnelly on December 17, 2021, 04:21:41 PM
so what exactly can you adjust and what are the effects?

The basic functions/adjustments are here
http://www.cltimer.com/

http://www.cltimer.com/wa_files/CL_20Timer_20v6_20EN.pdf

One way to learn the timer functions and then optimize for your plane and preferences is to turn off the settings for Sensitivity, nose up, and G-force, and then use one at a time and see what they do.   

Nose up adds RPM with the nose angled upward and goes back to base RPM when the nose is less than the set angle. Works upright or inverted.

G-force adds RPM when less than calibrated force is noted.  The decrease from calibrated force is set by Rogerio based on his testing.  The loss of force can be overhead due to gravity or at the upwind part of the circle with wind pushing the plane in.  There is an arc at the end of the circle and overhead where RPM is added, and otherwise returns to set RPM.

Sensitivity, Max and Min work together to add or decrease RPM.  This combination may decrease RPM below set RPM for braking.  The above functions may seem to give braking when the RPM goes from added back to set.

I flew for some time with Sensitivity, Max and Min only and didn't use nose up or G-force.  The timer worked fine, though it is more tunable to your specifics with all three functions.  Sensitivity works best if the sensor is leveled correctly to the plane, the other functions are less critical.  At the beginning, turn off the functions and trim the plane well.  Wing up or down affect the sensor, so trim before using the functions. Each function may turn on and off at different times, or different positions on the clock in a loop and give a different feel. Sensitivity, with Max and Min. is most useful, in my opinion since it supplies increase and decrease RPM.  After trim, fly with Sensitivity and M and M and adjust, then turn off and learn the other functions, then blend.

I hope this helps.  There is not a simple list of settings for every plane and person.

Quote from: Fred Underwood on December 18, 2021, 12:19:07 PM
Teh basic functions/adjustments are here
http://www.cltimer.com/

http://www.cltimer.com/wa_files/CL_20Timer_20v6_20EN.pdf

One way to learn the timer functions and then optimize for your plane and preferences is to turn off the settings for Sensitivity, nose up, and G-force, and then use one at a time and see what they do.   

Nose up adds RPM with the nose angled upward and goes back to base RPM when the nose is less than the set angle. Works upright or inverted.

G-force adds RPM when less than calibrated force is noted.  The decrease from calibrated force is set by Rogerio based on his testing.  The loss of force can be overhead due to gravity or at the upwind part of the circle with wind pushing the plane in.  There is an arc at the end of the circle and overhead where RPM is added, and otherwise returns to set RPM.

Sensitivity, Max and Min work together to add or decrease RPM.  This combination may decrease RPM below set RPM for braking.  The above functions may seem to give braking when the RPM goes from added back to set.

I flew for some time with Sensitivity, Max and Min only and didn't use nose up or G-force.  The timer worked fine, though it is more tunable to your specifics with all three functions.  Sensitivity works best if the sensor is leveled correctly to the plane, the other functions are less critical.  At the beginning, turn off the functions and trim the plane well.  Wing up or down affect the sensor, so trim before using the functions. Each function may turn on and off at different times, or different positions on the clock in a loop and give a different feel. Sensitivity, with Max and Min. is most useful, in my opinion since it supplies increase and decrease RPM.  After trim, fly with Sensitivity and M and M and adjust, then turn off and learn the other functions, then blend.

I hope this helps.  There is not a simple list of settings for every plane and person.

Thanks Fred, this is what I was looking for, I'll have to wait until spring to play with it though. 

Fred:  You were right.  Nose Up & G-Force make getting basic trim difficult.  With them off, where should my acceleration settings be and what can help with overhead tension.  I had to let an OH8 sag today in light winds. 

Ken

Ken, I read about the flight on the Trifecta thread.  You mentioned lead out position as not yet finalized and that it may be part of the problem.  If you want more line tension, then you can get there with speed as you asked.  You could speed up the plane with base RPM and leave the other functions alone until you finish trim/lead outs.  Alternately, turn up sensitivity and or Max.  You then get a larger boost but keep lap time the same.

What is sensitivity?  What is Max delta/how much is max over base?

Quote from: Fred Underwood on December 30, 2021, 08:27:23 PM
Ken, I read about the flight on the Trifecta thread.  You mentioned lead out position as not yet finalized and that it may be part of the problem.  If you want more line tension, then you can get there with speed as you asked.  You could speed up the plane with base RPM and leave the other functions alone until you finish trim/lead outs.  Alternately, turn up sensitivity and or Max.  You then get a larger boost but keep lap time the same.

What is sensitivity?  What is Max delta/how much is max over base?

I won't be able to check the settings till Monday.  I will let you know - thanks for the help.  I am really liking this timer.
I don't need more speed under 45.  The only place I ran into anything I need to improve timer wise was the last loop of the sq8 and the OH8.  Both may have been OK with more wind.  One of the guys said I didn't make vertical and that will kill tension.   I am a 5-10 kind of guy.  Light winds are not my thing...neither are heavy ones!

Ken

You can probably solve line tension with each timer function, but with different unintended consequences.  First, just a simple increase of base RPM, but at 5.2s/lap you may not wish that solution.  I fly a 67.5 – 70ish foot radius or center to center, and that at about 5.3 – 5.4 lap time.  You could move to longer lines and more speed with similar lap time.  Not necessarily what you wish, but one way.  Longer lines allow for more time to recover speed with longer "flats."

When I flew on Sensitivity, and Max and Min (without nose up or G-force), Sensitivity was about 15 – 20 and mostly 17 or 18.  That with a Max and Min delta of 80ish from base.  That gave significant acceleration and deceleration and worked well.  When other functions are mixed in to accelerate, the Sensitivity may work well about 8 – 10.  Max and Min deltas stayed about the same, but all adjusted to fit your style. 

Nose up will add acceleration, no deceleration, but return to base RPM.  It can be very helpful.   Nose up adds 1us of pulse width for each click (see below).  From the instructions, the timer came set at 20us.  I turned that off and flew with sensitivity initially. Nose up seems to work noticeably above 5 and I don't normally use more than 10us, but that is just preference.  It works in a "climb or cross overhead" as in the instructions.  If nose up is used without other functions, you may wish more like 20, or more.  That will help you to see what it does.

G-force seems to accelerate when force is low, so overhead. Gravity pulling the plane will remove 1G of force.  It also seems to accelerate when upwind and the plane is blown in with decreased force/line tension.

Any of the speed increases, or deceleration decrease, may help line tension overall and solve your wishes.  Each speed up gives a different feel to the flight.  For example, increase base RPM will help the line tension where you want it, but at the sacrifice of a overall faster flight and more battery use.  Nose up will add acceleration with the nose up.  But, if the wind comes up and you have enough energy and speed, nose up will still add acceleration.  Of course you can adjust it for conditions.  G-force is very useful overhead and upwind, or helping in windy conditions, but may still be "on" a bit as you pass over the top of a wingover.  As you use them you will easily accommodate and find them useful.  I still suggesting using one at a time until you are used to it and can feel what that function does.  Then when you want more or less acceleration in a specific area, you can decide which to adjust.

http://www.cltimer.com/wa_files/CL_20Timer_20v6_20EN.pdf

Still interested?  Some of my experience and idea are below.  Definitely not engineering explanations.  You may have some differences for different RPM ranges based on prop and line length.
One click of RPM adjustment for base or Max and Min is 0.002 sec to the pulse width and you can see this on the Jeti Box.  For reference, one click of nose up is 0.001 second. 

The timer controls from 1.200ms turn on to 2.000ms max or 800ms and timer has 400 steps, so 0.002ms/step.

Flying at about 10,400 RPM for about 5.2 second laps will give about 200 rpm for 0.1 second lap time change.

ESC rpm Max to Min is about 7500 to 11,500 or 4000 rpm in 400 steps or about 10 rpm for step. 

To change lap time 0.1 seconds may take 20ish timer clicks.

If you add acceleration, you will obviously get more laps in the same flight time but use more battery.  If you keep adding lap speed and acceleration, be careful of battery use.  If you like all of the functions turned up, turn down the total flight time, or slow the lap speed.  A change of lap time of 0.05 can be significant.

About the accelerometer sensor.   I just spent a couple of hours making a really nice adjustable shelf to mount the sensor in my removable bottom hatch.  When I put it in the plane to see how it fit I discovered that I had marked it's location on the C/G, not behind it.  Am I screwed?

Ken

I have a friend with a sensor mounted ahead of the wing under the battery.  It seems to work as well as it did when he had it a bit behind the CG.  My sensor is well behind the CG, about 4 inches.  Level and wires forward are necessary, and the longitudinal position seems less important.

I thought your bottom hatch was at about the trailing edge for adjusting the control system?

Quote from: Fred Underwood on March 08, 2022, 04:04:35 PM
I have a friend with a sensor mounted ahead of the wing under the battery.  It seems to work as well as it did when he had it a bit behind the CG.  My sensor is well behind the CG, about 4 inches.  Level and wires forward are necessary, and the longitudinal position seems less important.

I thought your bottom hatch was at about the trailing edge for adjusting the control system?

There are two.  Front on goes from the back of the motor to 4" behind the LE.  Aft one is from the TE to 4" aft.  These are load bearing hatches similar to what you find on real airplanes.

Ken

I am having a strange issue with the timer.  The way my flying group describes it is "the plane has no drive on outsides".  I don't feel it from the inside, but these are some top experts noticing it so I can't ignore it. I know of nothing other than perhaps the accelerometer sensor that would even have a clue if the plane is turning inside or outside.  As best as I could check it at the field it appeared to be level.  I have nose up set to 6 and g-force way up there at 22.  I have no idea what the upper limits are for either.

Ken

If I recall correctly, you found a wing problem and fixed it??  I would guess that with your observers the wings are level, and all of the basic trim is good.  I mention this because wings not level will give different sensor tilt for insides and outsides, but again, probably would have been noted.

Sensor side to side tilt will affect insides versus outsides.  The sensor must be level as the plane flies, hopefully as on the bench, but not necessarily.  A very small change in sensor tilt can fix the problem or make it worse if you choose the wrong side.  I believe that you have yours on a tiltable mount.  Tilt it very little on one side and try it, and if worse, then reverse.  Which side is needed tilt is different if mounted sticky up or sticky down, so just try a little tilt.  I tried about 1/64th under just the side edge and almost could not tell that it moved.  I wasn't sure if the sticky tape absorbed most of the wedge, but it worked.  I did it wrong way first and nothing drastic, just a bit worse.

I use sensitivity in the 6 - 10 range, nose up in the 6 - 8 range and G-force 5 - 10. With that, I seem to get about 500 rpm max over level lap and that is very adequate.  When you use high numbers, you may be using the functions and hide a trim or lap time problem.  You can just run the number to the top to see how far it goes and then come back to your setting.  I get that guestimate by running the plane help level for 20ish seconds with G-force off, and then interrogating the ESC for max rpm in the memory function.  Use that number as your base rpm, and then fly the plane with functions as you like including G-force and again interrogate the timer for max rpm.  My delta is about 500 with base in the 10,200 range. Lower base and you might want and need less total in the Max.  The ESC max rpm is a bit of a coarse measure, but you get a good idea.  Alternately and probably better is the ENGINE rpm app for iPhone that Brett mentioned on another thread.  I have not used it. 

You could fly very short flights and use the method to try to see if outsides gave much different Max rpm versus insides.  Since those maneuvers don't need much gain versus vertical maneuvers, I not sure the ESC function would find it, probably the tach.

I did have a difference in insides versus outsides though I was the only one to seem to notice.  I flew for a long time that way and it was never mentioned.  A minor tilt was done as above and solved the problem.  The extra acceleration/drive made a difference most noticeable to me flying, but clearly helped equalize that drive.

Quote from: Fred Underwood on March 25, 2022, 08:31:02 PM
If I recall correctly, you found a wing problem and fixed it??  I would guess that with your observers the wings are level, and all of the basic trim is good.  I mention this because wings not level will give different sensor tilt for insides and outsides, but again, probably would have been noted.

Well I have just learned something.  I had no idea that the sensor needed to be level in both axis.  Thank you.  The wings were not level today.  Off just a bit but not enough to stop me from getting in two patterns.  I had to adjust the flap pushrod and that required me to recenter the flaps.  I missed it by a tad but let it go.  The plane has real potential.  That will be fixed next time out.

Ken

A little more information for your questions.

I am running a V6.3 and my G-force is in increments of 5.  The range goes to 100% and I have not used over 10%, just my preference.  As the plane passes a point overhead where gravity is pulling into the lines, the G-force formula will activate.  I will still be activated after you get overhead until the program determines that G-force is back in range.  You might sustain some acceleration just past the top of a wingover, easily managed, but could be more with higher G-force?  What problem is being solved with higher G-force and could it be solved with trim or the other functions?

As to levelling the sensor on the ground.  If done correctly, you level the sensor to how the plane actually sits in the air.  Most of the time level is level in a trimmed plane, but some planes fly visibly nose up, or wing up or down.  Level it on the bench, then flip it over and it should be same level numbers upright and inverted (on the Jeti box) on the bench.

Quote from: Fred Underwood on March 26, 2022, 11:55:29 AM
What problem is being solved with higher G-force and could it be solved with trim or the other functions?

It is not so much a "problem" as it is a preference.  I am getting on in years and holding the back bent position in the OH8 is getting more difficult. I am pretty good at flying the behind the head part blind if I have good line tension.  I also like the feel of the power boost at the top of the inside loop of the V8 and the climb on the hourglass.   Those all appear to be the result of G-Force.

Ken

Problem is being solved, limited mobility of age.  Or problem is driving preferences.  I think we are about the same on age and mobility :-)

I try to balance the accelerators to not get the boost noticeable where I might also get a bit of torque.  Thus my balanced numbers on nose up, sensitivity, and G-force, but just preference.

Another hint of the timer being off level may be subtle difference of lap time inverted and upright.  I can sometimes pick that up if I time 10 taps for one total and then compare to 10 the other way.  The difference may be small, so If I have questions, I retest to see if the result is reproducible.

Something on another thread started one of those "things that make you go Hummm" moments.  Up till switching to the Fiorotti timer I had been using fixed rpm types where "boost" was really recovery from loss.  What happens to boost when the base RPMs are at the high end for the prop you are using?  I think I know the answer, but I would like to confirm - you have to make sure that the maximum boost does not exceed the motor's ability to provide it because it will literally "die trying".  Am I wrong here?

Ken