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Author Topic: Fiorotti active timer (update)  (Read 2105 times)

Offline Dwayne Donnelly

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Fiorotti active timer (update)
« on: August 08, 2020, 05:57:35 AM »
I'm setting up a Fiorotti active timer for the first time, on the web page it gives instructions on how to setup a Castle esc but under "Head Speed" it only says "18" please  what do you enter into the three spaces for head speed on Castle Link
Thanks
« Last Edit: August 11, 2020, 09:41:37 AM by Dwayne Donnelly »
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Offline Fred Underwood

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Re: Fiorotti active timer rpm
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2020, 11:33:29 AM »
I haven't used the Castle for a long time. I think that this may be what you want to know?  It was written for the V4.4, not the newer V.6, but should be similar in the ESC.  Try the Jeti ESC.

https://stunthanger.com/smf/gettin-all-amp'ed-up!/another-dog-another-'tric-fiorotti-v4-4-timer-with-accelerometer/

"V4.4 uses Castle Gov-Hi as noted.  The throttle screen for Gov-Hi shows optional “head speed” boxes.  The boxes are not used to govern in Gov-Hi, but if an RPM value is entered a corresponding needed pulse width is generated from the program.  If the RPM is too high or low, that will also be noted.  Motor Kv, direct drive/gearing, and battery voltage or cell count are also entered, so the user can know the system is in the correct range before mounting or flying.  Of course the method assumes that you have a system and know the RPM for your prop and line length.  The ESC program gives the needed pulse width to run the system at desired RPM and that pulse width can then be selected on the Jeti box.  The actual entry is a number from 0 – 400 and the selected number will correspond to a pulse width, also seen on the box.  From discussion with Castle, the method should be valid.  A datalog of a short run will confirm pulse width and RPM without use of a tachometer, though use of a tachometer is the alternative method for set up.  Two runs similarly done with say 10 or 20 “Jeti numbers” apart will allow calculation of the RPM change/Jeti number change making field RPM changes easy.  As an example a 12X6 APC used about 9800 RPM and the prop was changed to a Xoar 12X5.  I had recalled about 10,400 – 10,500 RPM, so added 20 numbers form 112 to 132 on the Jeti box and ended up going to 133 after one flight.  So about 600 RPM change for 30 RPM/Jeti number."
Fred
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Offline Dwayne Donnelly

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Re: Fiorotti active timer rpm
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2020, 02:57:02 PM »
Thank you Fred, so if I understand I still put the desired rpm in three boxes?  I have an Eflite 15,  11X6  APCE in a Oriental profile, when I was running a Hubin my rpm were, 9000, 9200, 9400, so just keep those rpm's
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Offline Fred Underwood

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Re: Fiorotti active timer rpm
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2020, 03:47:06 PM »
I have to try to decide what I meant since it has been a few years :-) 
As I recall, you don't need anything in the boxes ("The boxes are not used to govern in Gov-H").  If you put something in the boxes for rpm, the Castle program will tell you the pulse width to get that rpm.  The Jeti box can be set to that pulse width for the desired rpm.  You normally set a timer number, the the Jeti box also shows pulse width.  You will get a reasonable starting rpm from entering the rpm in the Castle program and then selecting that pulse, width at whatever number it takes on the timer.

Put the desired flight rpm in the first box and see the pulse width that it will show and use that pulse width as your starting set rpm in the timer. Then remove the number from the ESC after you get the information, as it doesn't use the number.  Or just leave the boxes blank and guess the starting rpm number in the timer.  I don't think anything happens if you leave a number in, but best to remove.
Fred
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Offline Dwayne Donnelly

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Re: Fiorotti active timer rpm
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2020, 07:42:41 PM »
I have it running, I did enter a rpm in Castle Link, but when I run the motor I don't hear a change in rpm when I point the nose up also any idea what the G-Force screen on the Jeti Box  is for?
Thanks for the help  y1  #^
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Offline Fred Underwood

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Re: Fiorotti active timer rpm
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2020, 08:38:26 PM »
What is your nose up setting?  I actually prefer nose up off and let the sensitivity setting control acceleration and deceleration.

G-force is another method of adding acceleration and tends to add acceleration when overhead. 

My suggestion is to trim the plane with acceleration and deceleration functions off, then start with sensitivity, max and min.

This may be a better off line discussion.
Fred
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Offline Rogerio Fiorotti

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Re: Fiorotti active timer rpm
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2020, 07:48:50 AM »



Dwayne,

Adjust your ESC Castle as shown, the values in the boxes are for information only and are not necessary.

Initially make the adjustments:
Nose_UP = 20
Sensitivity = 15
G_Force = Off

Further adjustments will be necessary after each flight.

Check the correct position of installation of the sensor if you use the timer version 6.4 it will inform right after takeoff if it is correct or not.

Also check the alignment of the sensor very important.


Offline Fred Underwood

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Re: Fiorotti active timer rpm
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2020, 12:09:37 PM »
One other thing I forgot to mention about the sensor.  It can be either sticky side up or down, so above or below the wing, but you have to select that in the Jeti box.  If nose up didn't work when nose up was on, perhaps you have the sensor setting, normal or reverse, incorrect.
Fred
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Offline Dwayne Donnelly

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Re: Fiorotti active timer rpm
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2020, 12:42:41 PM »
Thank you so much Fred and Rogerio, I had the ESC set on "Set RPM" instead of "High Governor". it works perfect now, I'm very excited to try it out.

Just two more questions and I'll be out of your hair...lol
Rogerio, in the instructions you highly recommend a 3 blade prop, who sells a 3 blade E prop for a E-Flite 15, I'm thinking somewhere around 10.5X5.5, and why have the G-Force turned off.

 Thank you very much.  y1 ~>
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Offline Fred Underwood

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Re: Fiorotti active timer rpm
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2020, 01:08:14 PM »
Not Rogerio, but I believe that he used Graupner 3 blade for his profile and 4 cell.

https://www.gravesrc.com/graupner-3-blade-e-prop-10x5.html

I think available in either rotation, so be sure to check on what you order.  They can be difficult to find, I heard that Graupner changed hands or may have ceased.
Fred
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Offline Rogerio Fiorotti

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Re: Fiorotti active timer rpm
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2020, 05:53:52 PM »
Really the Graupner 9x5 or 10x5 propellers with 3 blades had a very good result with an active system, I believe that the 10x5 propeller E-Flite 15 will do very well using 4S batteries.

Fred, in the most recent timer´s I added an algorithm that checks the position of the sensor in relation to the adjustment in the JetBox using the measurement of the centripetal force at the beginning of the flight. If it is wrong, the active timer is blocked by performing a flat flight with constant rpm and signaling on the blue LED until the battery is disconnected. To correct it, just change the value in the JetiBox.

Dwayne let us know your results.


Rogerio Fiorotti

Offline Frank Imbriaco

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Re: Fiorotti active timer rpm
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2020, 06:28:05 AM »
Does anyone know the weight of the 3 blade  , 10" Graupner prop ? It's not a multi-rotor prop, right ?

I'm considering converting my Classic ship from a Passive to Active system. It currently runs on 4S with an E-Flight Power 15 with a C.C. Phoenix 45. Actually, quite a nice set-up, but it could be better.

Rogerio : In a PM to you, I mentioned this . My thoughts are to go with a 5Sor 6S(25C) 2200mAh- which no one outside of some obscure( read: here today, gone tomorrow) Chinese manufacturer has on eBay.

The Jeti Spin 44(non- Pro) and a lower KV motor were mentioned by me. You recommended going with a higher KV motor and sticking with 4S. That advice left me scratching my head  n~

Can you assure that a 4S battery, Power 15 motor and CC ESC will give OPTIMAL or at least EQUAL  performance  with your latest v.6 timer ?

Sorry with all due respects, but I'm somewhat doubtful.

Offline Fred Underwood

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Re: Fiorotti active timer rpm
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2020, 04:05:44 PM »
Part of your answer -

Graupner Electro 3-Blade Prop 10x5
Features:
•   Optimized for electric motors
•   High blade expansion
•   Thin blade profile
•   High resistance plastic
•   Low weight
•   All sizes in this series are also available in anticlockwise design
•   Ideal for Quadcopters

The weight is 15.6 grams.  Not Carbon but “Made in high-strength fiberglass reinforced plastic.”
Fred
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Offline Dwayne Donnelly

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Re: Fiorotti active timer (update)
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2020, 09:50:33 AM »
Did some testing and I have to say this is the cats meow big time, I mounted the timer with velcro to isolate vibrations so I could use a two blade prop, I  didn't play with the Jeti box to much just to dial in lap times and was very easy to do, the break so to speak is quite noticeable very cool.  I'm very happy with how it performed and highly recommend it to anyone flying electric. 
 y1 ~> #^ ;D

Edit: Now that I think about it, maybe vibration isn't the reason a 3 blade is highly recommended,  Fred? Rogelio?
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Offline Fred Underwood

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Re: Fiorotti active timer (update)
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2020, 04:21:39 PM »
Sorry I messed this a couple of days ago.  Velcro may not transfer vibration, but does it firmly mount the sensor?  If the sensor lead moves in the wind, does it move the sensor.  If so, you will have problems.  You could get more stability without a hard mount by adding tape over the sensor lead from sensor to leading edge.  But be careful not to change sensor level, or re-level after you tape.

I mounted the sensor externally when I started, but it is not very satisfactory.  You can slot the profile fuse, or you can attach a plate at the fuse wing fillet area and leave it external but more attached.  Bundle the lead length and tape it on the wing so there is not a lot of extra length loose.

You may have seen this
https://stunthanger.com/smf/gettin-all-amp'ed-up!/old-dog-new-trics-old-plane-new-rogerio-fiorotti-timer/
Fred
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Offline Dwayne Donnelly

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Re: Fiorotti active timer (update)
« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2020, 05:04:34 PM »
Sorry I messed this a couple of days ago.  Velcro may not transfer vibration, but does it firmly mount the sensor?  If the sensor lead moves in the wind, does it move the sensor.  If so, you will have problems.  You could get more stability without a hard mount by adding tape over the sensor lead from sensor to leading edge.  But be careful not to change sensor level, or re-level after you tape.

I mounted the sensor externally when I started, but it is not very satisfactory.  You can slot the profile fuse, or you can attach a plate at the fuse wing fillet area and leave it external but more attached.  Bundle the lead length and tape it on the wing so there is not a lot of extra length loose.

You may have seen this
https://stunthanger.com/smf/gettin-all-amp'ed-up!/old-dog-new-trics-old-plane-new-rogerio-fiorotti-timer/

Very timely post Fred, I didn't have  the sensor leveled properly, it is now.
This system is going in a new build and I wanted to learn all I could before mounting it permanently in a full fuse plane. Please I see you are using a 2 blade prop, in the instructions it strongly recommends a 3 blade, I'd really like to use a 2  blade as I already have the spinner.
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Offline Fred Underwood

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Re: Fiorotti active timer (update)
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2020, 05:20:56 PM »
3 blades may balance better, or you may be better able to balance them.  What is recommended is a light weight prop and total rotating mass.  Igor's 2 blade props are in the 15 - 18 gram range.  Xoar wood PJN/electric props for 2 blade 12x5.  Heavy rotating mass slows the speed change for acceleration or deceleration and will likely occur in the wrong place in a maneuver.  Light prop and light spinner for electrics recommended.  I learned the hard way, my own experience instead of others.  It seemed to work because the acceleration came on and off, but timing is very important and it wasn't right until the light prop and spinner.

What plane will it go into, and what battery and ESC?


 
Fred
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Offline Dwayne Donnelly

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Re: Fiorotti active timer (update)
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2020, 05:32:14 PM »
3 blades may balance better, or you may be better able to balance then.  What is recommended is a light weight prop and total rotating mass.  Igor's 2 blade props are in the 15 - 18 gram range.  Xoar wood PJN/electric props for 2 blade 12x5.  Heavy rotating mass slows the speed change for acceleration or deceleration and will likely occur in the wrong place in a maneuver.  Light prop and light spinner for electrics recommended.  I learned the hard way, my own experience instead of others.  It seemed to work because the acceleration came on and off, but timing is very important and it wasn't right until the light prop and spinner.

What plane will it go into, and what battery and ESC?

Thanks Fred. The plane will be based on a Legacy 40, I'm shooting for around 44 .oz, motor is a E-Flite 15  CC 50 esc and 2700ma  4s batts right now using a apc 11X5.5  with a E-Flite spinner
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Offline Deric Herrmann

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Re: Fiorotti active timer (update)
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2020, 07:36:57 PM »
Does anyone have any pictures on how they mounted their timer..?

I know that in mounts on the inside of the fuse but how does one go about securing it?  Know there are two holes for the start button and the light but I cou,d use some advice on mounting it.

Thanks

Deric

dherrmann41005@gmail.com
513-304-2011


Offline Dwayne Donnelly

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Re: Fiorotti active timer rpm
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2020, 08:41:33 PM »
Not Rogerio, but I believe that he used Graupner 3 blade for his profile and 4 cell.

https://www.gravesrc.com/graupner-3-blade-e-prop-10x5.html

I think available in either rotation, so be sure to check on what you order.  They can be difficult to find, I heard that Graupner changed hands or may have ceased.

International shipping to Canada $56.00.  HB~>

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Online Crist Rigotti

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Re: Fiorotti active timer (update)
« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2020, 07:34:43 AM »
Does anyone have any pictures on how they mounted their timer..?

I know that in mounts on the inside of the fuse but how does one go about securing it?  Know there are two holes for the start button and the light but I cou,d use some advice on mounting it.

Thanks

Deric

dherrmann41005@gmail.com
513-304-2011

Use 2M Dual Lock.
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Offline Frank Donnelly

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Re: Fiorotti active timer (update)
« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2020, 04:55:20 PM »
This thread has been very helpful but I always struggle understanding some of these settings especially going from the ver 4.4 to 6.3 timer. What I’m hoping to do is convey my understanding and get feedback to tell me if I have it right or where I went wrong. Since RPM is dependent on so many variables; voltage, motor, prop, etc., I would like to level set and discuss this only in terms of the pulse width and using the default settings listed in the 6.3 user guide:
RPM = 1.420 ms
Nose Up = 20 us
RPM Max = 1.500 ms
RPM Min = 1.240 ms
Sensitivity = 12
And let’s set GForce = Off  (because I still don’t fully understand what that does and how to use it.)

Given those settings
Condition 1
Normal level flight – The RPM will be whatever RPM that can be achieved with a 1.420 ms pulse width.

Condition 2
Nose pitches up to a vertical climb – Nose Up will increase the pulse width to 1.420ms + 20 us = 1.440 ms thus increasing RPM.
RPM Max will allow the pulse width to increase beyond 1.440 ms to 1.500ms further increasing the RPM. If RPM Max where to equal 0 then the pulse width would remain at 1.440ms during the climb. If RPM Max truly overrides Nose Up, why bother setting Nose Up?

Condition 3
Nose pitches down to a vertical dive – Nose Up parameter comes out of the equation. RPM Min will allow the pulse width to decrease to 1.240 ms thus reducing RPM. If the RPM Min where set to equal 0, then the pulse width would return to 1.420ms.

So does that theoretically correctly summarize how those functions operate?
Thank you,
Frank

Offline Fred Underwood

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Re: Fiorotti active timer (update)
« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2020, 08:56:53 PM »
Does anyone have any pictures on how they mounted their timer..?

I know that in mounts on the inside of the fuse but how does one go about securing it?  Know there are two holes for the start button and the light but I cou,d use some advice on mounting it.

Thanks

Deric

dherrmann41005@gmail.com
513-304-2011

There is a photo on page 3 of the instructions below, though you would be better served if one of the users would photo and describe their set up.  The timer body originally was mounted to the fuselage side with double sticky foam tape. The newer ones have a plastic back to the timer body that can help with the mounting.

http://www.metaenergia.com.br/wa_files/CL_20Timer_20v4_x_20ENG_20Complete.pdf

The timer needs firm attachment to be able to push the button, so I'm' not sure about Velcro type attachments.  They may give a little too much.  They will hold the timer, but may not allow for the button to be depressed.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2020, 09:13:37 PM by Fred Underwood »
Fred
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Offline Fred Underwood

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Re: Fiorotti active timer (update)
« Reply #23 on: August 27, 2020, 09:10:08 PM »
My understanding follows.

Condition 1
Looks correct.

Condition 2
For nose up, the "us" settings are not added to the ms settings.  Microseconds are much smaller than milliseconds and would not contribute.  The settings given in "us" are levels, presumably of strength.  Similar to the increased numbers of V4 nose up.

RPM max and min are used for sensitivity and do not affect nose up function or G-force function.

Condition 3
Sounds correct.

Fred
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Offline Frank Donnelly

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Re: Fiorotti active timer (update)
« Reply #24 on: August 28, 2020, 04:59:16 AM »
Fred,
Thanks for the quick response. Can you elaborate more on what you mean by ("us'' are levels, presumably of strength)? Since the ESC only responds to one input, the pulse width, how does the Nose Up function exert any influence on RPM if it's value isn't added? I know it's a very small value, and likely would add no noticeable RPM increase.
Secondly, I didn't mention Sensitivity because I thought it was a measure of how quickly the timer would respond to a pitch change. For example a lower setting might help mute out responding to inadvertent pitch changes on a blustery, windy day. So how does RPM Min and Max relate to Sensitivity?
Thanks,
Frank

Offline Frank Donnelly

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Re: Fiorotti active timer (update)
« Reply #25 on: August 28, 2020, 05:07:46 AM »
Fred,
I was thinking about this a little more and perhaps the Nose Up value is a measure of how quickly the timer will apply the RPM Min and Max settings. Does that make sense?
Frank

Offline Rogerio Fiorotti

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Re: Fiorotti active timer (update)
« Reply #26 on: August 28, 2020, 11:47:42 AM »
Hi guys how are you?

First, excuse my absence in the topics because my work does not allow much time to write here.

Second, my English is very bad. Fred suffers a lot from this.

Frank, in condition 2 the Nose_up function is independent of other functions so the Max and Min limits do not affect Nose_up.

The operation is when the plane points the nose upwards it will have an increase in the RPM defined by Nose Up that can be adjusted up to 50 us (micro seconds) in the width of the PWM pulse that is enough to obtain a considerable acceleration. This has to be guaranteed by your KV engine system and battery voltage. In some cases this is not audible in flight but if you are using a Castle Creations with data logger you can see this in the graph.

The Max and Min settings are applicable in conjunction with the accelerometer sensitivity by defining stops between the two settings (Max / Min).

In condition 3 in the vertical dive, Nose_Up does not leave the equation but in dynamics it will not be able to reduce the engine RPM by itself and for that, linear acceleration is used together with the centripetal. You can check the RPM reduction by Nose_up in a static test by placing the plane's nose up and down.

I hope to have help in your understanding and I know that Fred has done a great job in helping in this matter, I am very grateful to him.


Rogerio.

Offline Fred Underwood

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Re: Fiorotti active timer (update)
« Reply #27 on: August 28, 2020, 12:19:12 PM »
Can you elaborate more on what you mean by ("us'' are levels, presumably of strength)? Since the ESC only responds to one input, the pulse width, how does the Nose Up function exert any influence on RPM if it's value isn't added? I know it's a very small value, and likely would add no noticeable RPM increase.

So how does RPM Min and Max relate to Sensitivity?

Microseconds, "us" are the units to go with the numeric values in nose up.  I'm not sure that the units are useful, maybe leftover from the algorithms.  I think of the numeric values as the strength of nose up response.  Part of the original question was comparing the settings of V4 to V6.  V4 used numbers for nose up without units.  Pointing the nose up beyond a specific set angle will cause acceleration, presumable by adding to the pulse width in milliseconds.  I don't think that nose up is activated until about 30°, probably so that it doesn't cause oscillation with every small angle change.

My non-engineer explanation.  I think of the main function of the system as being controlled by acceleration.  Sensitivity controls the response to acceleration changes. Pitch change will likely cause acceleration or deceleration so that even with "Nose up function" turned off acceleration would likely happen in response to pitch change.  On the other hand, with sensitivity off, nose up function will add acceleration because of the pitch angle.  The Max and Min functions regulate Sensitivity function only.  Turning sensitivity off should be similar to turning Max and Min to 0 and leaving Sensitivity off.  Part of the confusion may be that nose up is a direction to some users, but is also function name, actually renamed in V6 to "Climb RPM."

I hope that some of this makes sense.  Written while Rogerio was posting.
Fred
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Offline Frank Donnelly

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Re: Fiorotti active timer (update)
« Reply #28 on: August 28, 2020, 02:41:07 PM »
Rogerio, Fred,
Thanks for taking the time to explain. I have a better understanding now. When I get time I plan on going back through all these posts to gain a better understanding of how the G Force setting interacts with all of this. For now I just keep it off. So at some point I'll likely have to pick your brains again.
Thanks


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