Author Topic: Expensive or WHAT?!! (Read 2717 times)

Wynn Robins · « **on:** August 13, 2009, 04:58:13 PM »

have just started to purchase the items I need to get an electric system going and given the NZ dollar is not doing to well at the moment - I am probably up for over $1000 just for the basics......

hmmm - what i have so far (converted to NZ dollars includign shipping)

AXI 2820/12 $150
Ztron V4 Timer $98.56 x2
Shulze 18.46-F2B ESC $235

Still need

batteries - if I go with Thunder Power they will be close to $220 EACH!!!!
Charger
Balancer
Props
Adapters
Plugs & misc

SHEEESH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dennis Adamisin · « **Reply #1 on:** August 13, 2009, 05:58:03 PM »

Quote from: Wynn Robins on August 13, 2009, 04:58:13 PM

have just started to purchase the items I need to get an electric system going and given the NZ dollar is not doing to well at the moment - I am probably up for over $1000 just for the basics......

hmmm - what i have so far (converted to NZ dollars includign shipping)

AXI 2820/12 $150 Turnigy SK35-42-1000 $17.51
Ztron V4 Timer $98.56 x2 Will Hubin FM-2 $15 (i think) x2
Shulze 18.46-F2B ESC $235 Castle Creations Phoenix 35 $85, Castle Link (for programming) about $25

Still need

batteries - if I go with Thunder Power they will be close to $220 EACH!!!! Rhino 4Sx3700's $39.99 ea
Charger Turnigy Accucell 6 charger-Balancer $39.99
Balancer
Props
Adapters
Plugs & misc

SHEEESH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Looks pretty initimidating.

I showed what I am using of comaprable sizes - you did not indicate what size batteries you are getting. No shipping shown either... Stuff I show totals about $240 US, which (near as I can tell) would be about $355 NZD.

Wynn Robins · « **Reply #2 on:** August 13, 2009, 06:07:29 PM »

Hi Dennis - where do you get the Rhino batteries from?

I was looking at 3700mAh -to 400mAH batteries - so yours are on the money.

I guess I was looking for bulletproof systems - and the items I mentioned were suggested by Mike Palko......

Dennis Adamisin · « **Reply #3 on:** August 13, 2009, 06:42:17 PM »

Quote from: Wynn Robins on August 13, 2009, 06:07:29 PM

Hi Dennis - where do you get the Rhino batteries from?

I was looking at 3700mAh -to 400mAH batteries - so yours are on the money.

I guess I was looking for bulletproof systems - and the items I mentioned were suggested by Mike Palko......

Mike is GOOD PEOPLE and a genius, and he has CHAMPAIGN tastes! I'm more of a beer kind of guy... All the stuff I mentioned (except the Phoenix) can be found at the Hobby City site:

http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_index.asp

I have had pretty good luck with their stuff, others have reported similar results. My nephew has been running the Rhino 4S2350's up against their 20C limits in a RC Pylon racer - and the packs keep ciming back for more. These days I would not even think about charging a Lipo without a balancer, and it is easy to find combo units that take all the guesswork out of it.

Alan Hahn · « **Reply #4 on:** August 13, 2009, 07:25:48 PM »

Quote from: Wynn Robins on August 13, 2009, 04:58:13 PM

have just started to purchase the items I need to get an electric system going and given the NZ dollar is not doing to well at the moment - I am probably up for over $1000 just for the basics......

hmmm - what i have so far (converted to NZ dollars includign shipping)

AXI 2820/12 $150--Scorpion 3020--$69
Ztron V4 Timer $98.56 x2 ---Ztron or JMP-2 $30
Shulze 18.46-F2B ESC $235 --CC 45 ~$89

Still need

batteries - if I go with Thunder Power they will be close to $220 EACH!!!!--batteries $62 (4s2100 FMA)
Charger---FMA 4 with power supply ~$120
Balancer---not needed
Props----~APC thin electrics $3-4 or so, somewhat more if you want pushers.
Adapters--~$20 or so
Plugs & misc--~$20

SHEEESH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This combo flies a Vector 40. If you are going larger, it will be a bit more--primarily for the batteries.

You are buying excellent equipment--no argument there. But there are less expensive options which do not compromise the flying. I have been trying to show this now for 2 years.

I guess I'm a 3 buck Chuck sort of guy, just a little more premium than Dennis!

Dennis Adamisin · « **Reply #5 on:** August 13, 2009, 08:06:09 PM »

Quote from: Alan Hahn on August 13, 2009, 07:25:48 PM

This combo flies a Vector 40. If you are going larger, it will be a bit more--primarily for the batteries.

You are buying excellent equipment--no argument there. But there are less expensive options which do not compromise the flying. I have been trying to show this now for 2 years.

I guess I'm a 3 buck Chuck sort of guy, just a little more premium than Dennis!

Yeah, Alan likes those pinky-pointing Scorpion motors (he even builds his own). Guess that makes him a beer-and-a-shot kind of guy!

BTW, as Alan correctly pointed out you have a FIRST CLASS set of equipment on hand.

SO what bird do you have in mind for your first electric?

Kim Doherty · « **Reply #6 on:** August 13, 2009, 08:55:28 PM »

Quote from: Wynn Robins on August 13, 2009, 06:07:29 PM

I guess I was looking for bulletproof systems - and the items I mentioned were suggested by Mike Palko......

Quote from: Dennis Adamisin

Mike is GOOD PEOPLE and a genius, and he has CHAMPAIGN tastes! I'm more of a beer kind of guy...

Wynn,

Re-read what you said in your post and who told you what to get. Then read what Dennis said about the guy who told you what to get. I will second the accolade.

Having high quality equipment is NOT the same as having champagne tastes. It is more the equivalent of wanting to spend your remaining time on this earth flying your models rather than wishing you could while trying to decipher an Eagle Tree readout during a Lipo explosion.

If you are going to continue flying electric powered planes then get a Thunder Power 1010C charger and a 210V balancer. More expensive yes. Incredible piece of mind as well. If your charger can only charge 4 cells you are very limited. If you ever want to fly a larger plane you will need to purchase a new charger and balancer and watch the old one collect dust. A 1010C charger can charge up to 10 cells simultaneously so you could charge two 5S packs at the same time assuming you have a large enough power supply. (you did budget for a power supply didn't you?)

As for batteries if you can handle a bit more weight at a VASTLY lower cost, try the Zippy Lipo's from HobbyCity

www.hobbycity.com

I have used these in one of my helicopters and although they may not last as long a Thunder Power pack for the price you can not go wrong. (buy a dozen !!)

Kim

Wynn Robins · « **Reply #7 on:** August 13, 2009, 09:11:36 PM »

plan built vector is the likely first candidate - want to have removable wings on it - so had a joiner made......should give a bit more space in the nose for additional cooling etc.

the Zippys sure are heavy......but might be able to overcome that with the cost of the other batteries..... Mike suggested the Neu Energy that run about $75US each - which is not too bad I guess......

Kim - the chargers I know nothing about so any advice is appreciated thanks for your suggestion - I will look into that

Dennis Adamisin · « **Reply #8 on:** August 13, 2009, 09:50:17 PM »

A Vector 40?

Hmmmm, you said you were looking for 3700's to 4000's: I believe Alan is using 4Sx2100 mah cells on his Vector 40, I am flying one of those - and several other similar sized birds on 4Sx2350 - 4Sx2600 mah packs - (all of these are 4 cells).

My point is that the lower capacity cells will save you $$$ and weight.

Wynn Robins · « **Reply #9 on:** August 14, 2009, 01:15:42 AM »

again - taking advice from Mike who said to keep the capacity the same - but change the cell count depending on the airplane size .......I know NOTHING about this so that is why I was asking Mr Palko

Quote from: Dennis Adamisin on August 13, 2009, 09:50:17 PM

A Vector 40?

Hmmmm, you said you were looking for 3700's to 4000's: I believe Alan is using 4Sx2100 mah cells on his Vector 40, I am flying one of those - and several other similar sized birds on 4Sx2350 - 4Sx2600 mah packs - (all of these are 4 cells).

My point is that the lower capacity cells will save you $$$ and weight.

andreas johansson · « **Reply #10 on:** August 14, 2009, 02:32:41 AM »

Hi

I'm using Turnigy motors, Phoenix ESCs and Zippy Lipos and they works wonderfully (except a bit of problems with the latest Phoenix firmware). I guess I'm a beer guy

/Andreas

Mike Palko · « **Reply #11 on:** August 14, 2009, 06:57:46 AM »

Hi guys,
When I recommend a power system to anyone I always give them at least two options, if not more, and I did the same for Wynn. If they choose the highest quality and most expensive option it is on them. Wynn asked for the ideal setup and if he went with the Plettenberg motor he would have it (he didn't decide on a battery yet). I am not defending myself (nothing to defend really), just showing what I do for everyone. I think many agree with the choices he made if you can afford it.

And thanks for the kind words.

If I was better than anyone else it was because I was a step ahead. I think it is an even playing field for a lot of us now!

Just for grins here is what I recommend in no order.

Motors:
1) Plettenberg
2) AXI
3) Scorpion

ESC:
1) CC
2) Jeti
3) Schulze (has been on sale for $137 for months so I don't know why it was so expensive?)

Battery: 3700-4000mah
1) Thunder Power
2) NEU (now has a $75 3600mah 4S pack and I will be using a lot more of them in the future!)

Timer:
1) Z-Tron ($20-$49)
2) Hubin ($10 and up)

Mike

Igor Burger · « **Reply #12 on:** August 14, 2009, 07:06:39 AM »

do not forget A123 - it makes flying far less expensive

Wynn Robins · « **Reply #13 on:** August 14, 2009, 05:46:24 PM »

Quote from: Mike Palko on August 14, 2009, 06:57:46 AM

Hi guys,
When I recommend a power system to anyone I always give them at least two options, if not more, and I did the same for Wynn. If they choose the highest quality and most expensive option it is on them. Wynn asked for the ideal setup and if he went with the Plettenberg motor he would have it (he didn't decide on a battery yet). I am not defending myself (nothing to defend really), just showing what I do for everyone. I think many agree with the choices he made if you can afford it. Mike it is ALL much appreciated - just wait til I bug you about programming
And thanks for the kind words. If I was better than anyone else it was because I was a step ahead. I think it is an even playing field for a lot of us now!

Just for grins here is what I recommend in no order.

Motors:
1) Plettenberg I couldn't justify the costs of these versus the AXI
2) AXI3) Scorpion

ESC:
1) CC
2) Jeti
3) Schulze (has been on sale for $137 for months so I don't know why it was so expensive?) I quoted this in New Zealand Dollars
Battery: 3700-4000mah
1) Thunder Power
2) NEU (now has a $75 3600mah 4S pack and I will be using a lot more of them in the future!)

Timer:
1) Z-Tron ($20-$49)
2) Hubin ($10 and up)

Mike

William DeMauro · « **Reply #14 on:** August 14, 2009, 06:29:15 PM »

I'm in the middle with my stuff. No one here has suggested at the "list your setup Sticky" http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=12044.0to see what others are using. I've said it before and I'll say it again.If nothing else build your setup around a quaility Speed Control. Most are using Castle stuff. The other's suggested work great too.

jim gilmore · « **Reply #15 on:** August 14, 2009, 06:35:59 PM »

I really like seeing people posting what possibly combinations work and they are using.
So how does A123 make flying cheaper?

Alan Hahn · « **Reply #16 on:** August 14, 2009, 06:54:20 PM »

With A123 you can charge so fast, that you can get by with a single battery.

Igor Burger · « **Reply #17 on:** August 15, 2009, 12:13:55 AM »

Sorry Jim, we spoke many times about A123, so I just mentined them.

As Alan Already wrote - the main point is, that you can charge A123 in teh fuselage at high current. So you need only one pack. It wil save lot of money.

You can also do more cycles. I know people having 1000 cycles. A123 will also last longer, I have 3 years old pack and I do not see anything wrong, just smaller capacity by 100mAh, but no difference of internal resistance.

A123 can be smaller (capacity) because you can permanently use 95% of its capacity, so you not need to pay and carry excessive cells.

A123 not need permanent ballancing.

But they are heavier, they are round (need more space in fuselage) and they need special LiFe charger.

Rob Roberts · « **Reply #18 on:** August 15, 2009, 05:17:52 AM »

Hyperion and some of the Neu Batteries can be charged at 5c so if you have a charger with enough amps one lipo battery should be fine.

http://www.rcdude.com/servlet/the-Batteries-cln-Lipos--dsh--Hyperion-G3/Categories
http://www.neumotors.com/store/page12/page12.html

Rob

Igor Burger · « **Reply #19 on:** August 15, 2009, 10:55:48 AM »

Tha is right Rob, but it is still not what I expect from A123 - charging hot in fuselage.

And I see I forgot one important disadvantade of A123 - we have only one really usefull size - 2,3Ah

11290 · « **Reply #20 on:** August 15, 2009, 08:18:37 PM »

Quote

All the stuff I mentioned (except the Phoenix) can be found at the Hobby City site:

http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_index.asp

I have had pretty good luck with their stuff, others have reported similar results. My nephew has been running the Rhino 4S2350's up against their 20C limits in a RC Pylon racer - and the packs keep ciming back for more. These days I would not even think about charging a Lipo without a balancer, and it is easy to find combo units that take all the guesswork out of it.

I also fly RC heli's and use the Turnigy, Flightmax (Zippy) and Rhino batteries all the time from HobbyCity. Also use the Turnigy Accucell chargers. These batteries cost 1/3 or less than the TP's and last at least twice as long. Have had expensive Outrage packs that couldn't even make it to 30 cycles and the HobbyCity packs just keep plugging along. Have several that have more than 100 cycles on them and they are starting to show some age but for a 3S-2200-30C pack for less than $20 who cares ! ! They've been a bargain.

Mike Palko · « **Reply #21 on:** August 15, 2009, 09:28:49 PM »

Quote from: 11290 on August 15, 2009, 08:18:37 PM

I also fly RC heli's and use the Turnigy, Flightmax (Zippy) and Rhino batteries all the time from HobbyCity. Also use the Turnigy Accucell chargers. These batteries cost 1/3 or less than the TP's and last at least twice as long. Have had expensive Outrage packs that couldn't even make it to 30 cycles and the HobbyCity packs just keep plugging along. Have several that have more than 100 cycles on them and they are starting to show some age but for a 3S-2200-30C pack for less than $20 who cares ! ! They've been a bargain.

Those are VERY high claims! Do you have any data to prove it?

Mike

William DeMauro · « **Reply #22 on:** August 16, 2009, 06:48:30 AM »

Mike,
I have 2 flightmax 4400 4 cell I am using in my SV11 but I have less than 15 cycles on each so far. So far so good but time will tell if they are any good. I can say the with shipping I got them to my door for under $55 each. Yes they are heavy at 420 grams each but I need the nose weight so Its not hurting me there,in this case. My other batteries are Polyqwest 4250 4 cell that use the same brand cells a thunderpower(Enerland). Those I got for $85 shipped each. This should be an interesting comparison since I am flying them all in the same setup. So far all are holding up well. In the end all that really matters is "cost per flight", providing that you have batteries that work in your setup.

Archie Adamisin · « **Reply #23 on:** August 16, 2009, 06:59:12 AM »

Just as a fella who has also flown with Rhino packs and Turnigy motors directly compared to Thunder Power Packs and higher end motors.

What you will see are the following:

Batteries
The Thunder Power will give you more volts/amp, higher capacity/oz, & possibly more cycles. The reality is this, the voltage/amp is a fractional difference as well as the capacity/oz (comparing silimlar pack sizes). It does add up, but is it worth the difference in price?

It really boils down to cost per flight. If you choose big enough batteries to sustain the average current draw of an ECL powered ship and you buid it light enough, using the cheaper batteries doesn't hurt you. Compared head to head, the TP batteries are superior to Rhino cells and I will never dispute that, but what I will dispute is whether the cost justifies the difference. The demand on power (18 amps average in a 600 sq in stunter on 4s) is really so low that I can't personally see why the cheaper cells wouldn't be the right way.

Chargers
This is up to you, but I can tell you that I was at teh E-Nats this year and the charger to have ws the Turnigy Accucell 8. I spoke with many guys who had high end chargers that were trying to unload them because this $79 charger did everything their higher end charger did and more. It has a built in balancer so no accessory stuff is needed. I have a Triton 2 with Equinox balancer. With everything I could have had 2 Accucell 8's for the same as I have invested. I also have a Hextronic 8080 ($27) simple charger I bought to charge my foamy combat 2S packs. It will charge up to 4S @ 2amps. It has no display, only a selector switch for current. It is the best balancing charger I have.

Motors

Understand that the best running outrunner only gets 85-87% effieciency. Turnigy SK's get over 80%. My Uncle Dennis is flying Mythbuster with a $17 SK 35-42-1000. My opinion is that you have to size a motor big enough that it is capable of disapating the heat generated by the amount of power you need. Kv is also important, but you have quite a group here that you can draw from real experience and see what works for people.

An example of this would be that my Uncle Dennis has the Swinger which has flown on a few different motors. It currently flies on a 35-36-1200 on 4s. It has also flown using a 35-30-1250 and 28-36-1200. The performance with all (3) motors was exacly the same. The 35-30 blew up on the first loop of the clover, and the 28-36 ran at over 135 degrees. The 35-36 runs @ 115 Degrees. Proof that with governing controllers, the motor will deliver the goods (To a point). Note this is a 50 ounce 600 q in swept wing stunter. Heavy and high drag.

Bottom line is this. Spend what you want. There is no doubt that buying higher end equipment will get you quality. However, I will say that you will get a lot more flying with the same performance using the cheaper stuff.

I have attached some plots of Rhino 4S 20C 2350 cells and a Turnigy SK 35-42-1000 as flown in Mythbuster & one of my pylon racers. Note the battery voltage and current. Plots taken using ICE50.

Archie Adamisin
Muncie, Indiana

Alan Hahn · « **Reply #24 on:** August 16, 2009, 08:29:18 AM »

Archie,
Not related to where this post is going (

cost is a really big controversy in every forum I have seen, especially electric),
but this is an ICE question that you may know. You may prefer to answer in another thread.

But the question is whether the ICE will record the effective throttle output of the ESC while under governor mode. By this I mean basically something related to the % width of the PWM pulse. I have always been curious on how close to the max output I am flying my setups (especially near the end of the flight when the battery voltage is lowest) and haven't really figured out a way to get that info---except indirectly by using motor calculations and noting the max power I am using (and the battery voltage at the time). As I said, that only gives me an estimate and I would like to know. I figure the ESC knows what it is doling out.

Mike Palko · « **Reply #25 on:** August 16, 2009, 11:00:25 AM »

My question wasn't about price or weight or voltage under load (thank you for the info Archie!), but about a pack that will give you twice the flights a Thunder Power will.

Mike

Archie Adamisin · « **Reply #26 on:** August 16, 2009, 11:28:45 AM »

Alan,

Yes, the ICE records the pulse width value. I have that turned off to make the chart easier to read. Bad thing is though that if you use fixed rpm mode, it won't matter because 0-49% is RPM#1, 50-99% is RPM#2, and 100% is RPM#3. Now, if you used governor high, then adjust your rpm using the timer, then a valid Pulse width will be displayed as output from the timer.

Archie Adamisin
Muncie, Indiana

Archie Adamisin · « **Reply #27 on:** August 16, 2009, 12:14:36 PM »

Not a problem Mike.

I am not sure to the life span of Rhino cells vs TP. I have heard various reports for both. But I do have flight data to support the performance of the Rhino cells. I will see if I can borrow some 4S 2500 TP packs for a flight to test head to head. At full throttle, you should see a difference better or worse.

I haven't worn out a larger Rhino Li-poly yet, but I haven't had the flying time I would like to explore that. I have worn out a dozen 2S combat packs though and well, I can say that the Rhino 2S 1250's last a while under extreme conditions (Extreme meaning right at "C" rating current and pulling out 80-90% capacity.) I know that I had over 150 cycles on my first batch of packs and I am well on my way to that on my second set. They are getting softer, but still going.

My 4S 2350's I have got about 30 cycles on and they show no signs of fall off yet. I have taken much better care of them than I do my combat packs though. But I have leaned on them for the most part in my EP Q-500 & EP LR1-A Pogo. I am pulling near there rated "C" current and they still give good voltage and their rated capacity. They run fairly cool as well.

Bottom line, look at how easy ECL is. We can spend hundreds or thousands and we all still have fun.

Archie Adamisin
Muncie, Indiana

Alan Hahn · « **Reply #28 on:** August 16, 2009, 01:48:06 PM »

Quote from: Archie Adamisin on August 16, 2009, 11:28:45 AM

Alan,

Yes, the ICE records the pulse width value. I have that turned off to make the chart easier to read. Bad thing is though that if you use fixed rpm mode, it won't matter because 0-49% is RPM#1, 50-99% is RPM#2, and 100% is RPM#3. Now, if you used governor high, then adjust your rpm using the timer, then a valid Pulse width will be displayed as output from the timer.

Archie Adamisin
Muncie, Indiana

Archie,
I may not have stated it correctly, or maybe not understanding you, but I didn't mean the pulse width throttle input (the 50 Hz 1-2ms pulse width) from the timer, but the actual ESC pulse width output (or % of WOT) that the ESC is outputting to the motor in order to keep rpm constant).

It sounds like logging that variable may not be available. I don't see any real info on the CC site that explains what exactly you can log. It may be that this signal is changing too fast for the data recorder to track (of course I was only interested in the average value on the time scale of 0.1 s).

Archie Adamisin · « **Reply #29 on:** August 16, 2009, 06:49:18 PM »

Alan,

I replied in the ICE thread.

Archie Adamisin
Muncie, Indiana

Allen Burnham · « **Reply #30 on:** August 23, 2009, 07:27:21 AM »

I have read a bit on the electrics and I believe I will hold off for a while. The power and cleanliness and other advantages are great, but the initial cost is still too high for me. The cost of building 1 new electric will build and supply a number of fuel powered models. I am glad there are people who put out the time, effort and cash to research the technology because it will make it more affordable and more viable later on. I have built flown a few (ahem) R/C electrics (sorry to mention to other side here.....) but they were just simple R/C car component recycles. I have read that the battery technology is improving at a rate that will allow electric automobiles to compete head to head with gasoline powered vehicles within 10 years. This will spread out to other electric motor uses including the model world. This is promising advancement although it will still take other forms of fuel to make the electricity, but that is another matter altogether.
Again this is just my opinion and I applaud the folks forging ahead to bring in the advancements.

Alan Hahn · « **Reply #31 on:** August 23, 2009, 08:31:09 AM »

Quote from: Allen Burnham on August 23, 2009, 07:27:21 AM

I have read a bit on the electrics and I believe I will hold off for a while. The power and cleanliness and other advantages are great, but the initial cost is still too high for me. The cost of building 1 new electric will build and supply a number of fuel powered models.<snip>....

Well there is some truth that the first one is the expensive one!

The next ones are cheaper---because you already have the support equipment (like chargers, watt-meters.....).

walterbro · « **Reply #32 on:** August 23, 2009, 09:30:16 AM »

Hi guys-

Since we are talking about expensive, how many of you "break -in" your batteries?
If you read Paul Walker's post describing his break- in steps for his 5STP 4000mah
batteries,He is very serious about the battery life being influenced by your procedure. I talked with him briefly at the NATS to see if he really followed the steps
he posted. HE DOES!
I usually used a 'Break-IN" as outlined by TP Battery instructions. (3c-5c) runs for
3 or 4 runs on the bench prior to flight. Now I follow PAUL'S Reduced charging steps as well.

Sincerely, Walt

Dean Pappas · « **Reply #33 on:** August 24, 2009, 04:53:29 PM »

In Pattern use, where full throttle is often at ~17C, break-in is important, and if you take a few weeks off from flying, then a 1 or 2 time break-in lite run is recommended.
At our 7C average, I would do some sort of break-in, even if it is just a pair of short flights that use less than 50% capacity, and not sweat it past that.

Dean Pappas

Author Topic: Expensive or WHAT?!! (Read 2717 times)

Alan Hahn

Kim Doherty

Alan Hahn

Alan Hahn

Alan Hahn

Alan Hahn