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Author Topic: Electrocuting the Atlantis  (Read 14068 times)

Online Lauri Malila

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Re: Electrocuting the Atlantis
« Reply #50 on: January 12, 2020, 02:07:04 AM »
Quote from: Tim Wescott link=

You're now tempting me to machine an integrated backplate/collet.  I intend to resist, but it'll be hard.
[/quote

Something like this, Tim..?

L

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Electrocuting the Atlantis
« Reply #51 on: January 12, 2020, 09:07:47 AM »
Something like that.  Only if I did it then it wouldn't look as nice!
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Electrocuting the Atlantis
« Reply #52 on: February 01, 2020, 03:48:26 PM »
Getting some work done today, on the mount for the sensor pickoff, which I'm leaving in so I can capture telemetry with the TUT.  This is a matter of building a bracket (which mounts using the motor mount screws), gluing a Hall sensor to the bracket in line with the magnet on the spinner, and then hoping that it doesn't fall apart from vibration.

The pictures, more or less in order, are the pickoff mount on the motor mount, with the position of the pickoff dummied up.  Then there's a view of the pickoff mount and its relation to the spinner backplate.  The next two are the pickoff mount alone.  Final two pictures are the pickoff mount ready for gluing, and everything clamped up.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Wolfgang Nieuwkamp

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Re: Electrocuting the Atlantis
« Reply #53 on: February 02, 2020, 12:14:43 PM »
Lauri,
would his be an alternative for your backplate construction?



Regards,
Wolfgang

Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Electrocuting the Atlantis
« Reply #54 on: February 02, 2020, 09:11:01 PM »
Do the words "overly complicated" mean anything at all to you?
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Online Lauri Malila

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Re: Electrocuting the Atlantis
« Reply #55 on: February 07, 2020, 07:50:02 PM »
Lauri,
would his be an alternative for your backplate construction?



Regards,
Wolfgang

No, unless I misunderstood the drawing, that’s a little silly.
How do you keep the assembly centric when tightening those 3 screws?
My solution is elegant because most machining operations are made with one mounting, thus perfect centricity.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2020, 06:44:44 AM by Lauri Malila »

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Electrocuting the Atlantis
« Reply #56 on: February 08, 2020, 02:43:45 PM »
Once I got the mount done I had to figure out how to get the dang thing in straight.  It's not entirely perfect to key off of the existing motor mounts, because that area isn't perfectly flat -- but it's pretty good, and I can shim things to perfection later.

It's probably not apparent, but there's about one degree of right offset built in -- I should do more, but that's kinda what came out of the sanding block.  As soon as I post this I'll glue it all up and see if things actually stick together or if there's been too much mold release soaked into the wood over the years.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Electrocuting the Atlantis
« Reply #57 on: February 08, 2020, 08:52:44 PM »
Well, that was almost a disaster.  My nice square jig bolted nice and squarely to the engine mounts ended up with the electric motor mount getting glued in with two or three degrees of downthrust.

Fortunately I discovered the problem before the glue was fully cured, so I could pull the mount out without damage.  I've got a new improved jig (more rigid, and for some inexplicable reason I needed to sand a bit of a wedge into the nose piece), and more importantly I've verified that the dang thing actually is square to the airframe.

Glue again, and this time check before the glue starts getting hard...
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Wolfgang Nieuwkamp

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Re: Electrocuting the Atlantis
« Reply #58 on: February 09, 2020, 08:48:09 AM »
Lauri,

you probably misunderstood the drawing. There are only 2 parts. By tightening the 3 screws equally, the backplate is perfectly centered. The big advantage is, that you don't have to block the motor when tightening. Also, you can use it with wooden props, because the propnut only has to fix the prop tight enough.
Regards,

Wolfgang

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Electrocuting the Atlantis
« Reply #59 on: February 09, 2020, 12:53:00 PM »
Lauri,

you probably misunderstood the drawing. There are only 2 parts. By tightening the 3 screws equally, the backplate is perfectly centered. The big advantage is, that you don't have to block the motor when tightening. Also, you can use it with wooden props, because the propnut only has to fix the prop tight enough.
Regards,

Wolfgang

Screws are parts, too, and there's no positive way to make sure the screws are tightened evenly.  I'm not sure that your suggestion wouldn't work, but I'm sure that it'd be subject to getting cocked over if it wasn't assembled carefully by someone of skill.

If you really wanted to spare a wooden prop, you could make a recess in the backplate part to hold a nut that tightened the collet (presumably using a pin wrench or some such), then hold the prop on separately -- but that's getting to an awful lot of parts for a problem that's already solved.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Electrocuting the Atlantis
« Reply #60 on: February 09, 2020, 01:39:13 PM »
OK.  Second time was a charm.  And everything fits!  I've now officially decommissioned this thing as a slimer -- I've sawn off the fill and overflow tubes inside the engine bay, and I've taken out a cross-piece that prevents the battery from sliding forward.  So there's no going back.

I'm planning on putting all of the electronics into the cowl, so the pits procedure will be (usually) to leave the cowl dangling on the motor wires while I'm strapping the battery in, then plug in the battery (with arming plug left unplugged), then attach the cowl (two easy screws).  On the flight line I'll plug in the battery, push the "start" button, and go.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Electrocuting the Atlantis
« Reply #61 on: February 09, 2020, 02:51:44 PM »
I'm planning on putting all of the electronics into the cowl, so the pits procedure will be (usually) to leave the cowl dangling on the motor wires while I'm strapping the battery in, then plug in the battery (with arming plug left unplugged), then attach the cowl (two easy screws).  On the flight line I'll plug in the battery, push the "start" button, and go.
Did it that way on my last two.  Added benefit is that all that expensive stuff is smack in the middle of the airflow. 

Ken
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Electrocuting the Atlantis
« Reply #62 on: February 09, 2020, 04:09:36 PM »
Did it that way on my last two.  Added benefit is that all that expensive stuff is smack in the middle of the airflow. 

Ken

Yes, that's a happy side-effect.  I started out by trying to get the battery mounted as high in the fuselage as I can, but getting airflow around the ESC is a strong secondary point.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Electrocuting the Atlantis
« Reply #63 on: February 22, 2020, 09:00:20 PM »
ESC & arming switch, although I muffed the heat shrink on the arming switch.  I can't see how to solder such a short wire together without shrinking the tubing; I think I'll get some of that tool handle dip stuff and try it out.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline William DeMauro

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Re: Electrocuting the Atlantis
« Reply #64 on: February 23, 2020, 10:32:26 AM »
ESC & arming switch, although I muffed the heat shrink on the arming switch.  I can't see how to solder such a short wire together without shrinking the tubing; I think I'll get some of that tool handle dip stuff and try it out.
Just put a larger piece of heatsrhink over the whole thing its just a jumper anyway. I'll post a picture later when I get home. Doesn't matter if its a deans or an XT60 Its the same principle.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2020, 02:45:32 PM by William DeMauro »
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Electrocuting the Atlantis
« Reply #65 on: February 23, 2020, 10:58:59 AM »
T'oh (that's French for d'oh, so it's classy).

Thank you, of course that'll work well.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Larry Wong

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Re: Electrocuting the Atlantis
« Reply #66 on: February 23, 2020, 06:02:54 PM »
I forgot to order one. And I'm kind of out of cash until the next paycheck. So I made one from stuff lying around. I expect it'll work, even if it's ugly.
Larry

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Offline Larry Wong

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Re: Electrocuting the Atlantis
« Reply #67 on: February 23, 2020, 06:08:53 PM »
E-Bay sells them for E- Cars and Drones battery connectors
Larry

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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Electrocuting the Atlantis
« Reply #68 on: March 07, 2020, 04:52:30 PM »
Making sure the SD card fits in the TUT.  This may have to be revised a bit for the ESC fit, but it's what's on there now...

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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Electrocuting the Atlantis
« Reply #69 on: March 17, 2020, 06:36:12 PM »
I just realized that I didn't post the pictures of the sensor pickoff mount in its completed form.  Here it is.

The wire goes above the motor (under in this pic, because the plane's laying on its back).

AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Wolfgang Nieuwkamp

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Re: Electrocuting the Atlantis
« Reply #70 on: March 18, 2020, 08:17:25 AM »
Tim,
would it not be easier to measure the rpm electronically? You would get more pulses per revolution, (npolepairs/2).
Regards,
Wolfgang

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Electrocuting the Atlantis
« Reply #71 on: March 18, 2020, 05:17:46 PM »
Wolfgang: I'm supporting someone who doesn't want to mess with their motor or ESC wiring.  And that method works with a slime motor (in fact, I was using it in that plane with a 46LA).

But yes, if you're willing to touch the motor wires you can, and probably with less circuitry than that.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Wolfgang Nieuwkamp

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Re: Electrocuting the Atlantis
« Reply #72 on: March 19, 2020, 04:34:18 AM »
Tim,
To avoid to touch motor wires, I made a simple adapter:

Regards,
Wolfgang

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Electrocuting the Atlantis
« Reply #73 on: March 23, 2020, 04:54:58 PM »
I'm putting an air scoop on, to replace the big hole for the engine.

The cowl's gonna get a coat of paint before I fly, I think...
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Electrocuting the Atlantis
« Reply #74 on: March 23, 2020, 08:39:45 PM »
I'm putting an air scoop on, to replace the big hole for the engine.

The cowl's gonna get a coat of paint before I fly, I think...
Love that scoop.  Now it is starting to look like one of mine!  I cram as much of that electronic junk into the wind as I can.  Just make sure you have enough holes to let it out. 

Ken
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Offline John Rist

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Re: Electrocuting the Atlantis
« Reply #75 on: March 23, 2020, 09:21:00 PM »

The cowl's gonna get a coat of paint before I fly, I think...
[/quote]

That's one the good things about electric.  Can fly before paint.  Don't need fuel proofing.   y1
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Electrocuting the Atlantis
« Reply #76 on: March 24, 2020, 10:08:29 AM »
The cowl's gonna get a coat of paint before I fly, I think...


That's one the good things about electric.  Can fly before paint.  Don't need fuel proofing.   y1

This is Oregon.  It needs at least one coat of dope for water resistance, or I have to wait until August.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Paul Walker

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Re: Electrocuting the Atlantis
« Reply #77 on: March 27, 2020, 08:16:45 PM »
With your ESC in the cowl  does that mean you have to disconnect the leads to the motor each battery change?

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Electrocuting the Atlantis
« Reply #78 on: March 30, 2020, 03:02:57 PM »
With your ESC in the cowl  does that mean you have to disconnect the leads to the motor each battery change?

Only if I messed up!  My plan is that there'll be enough slack in the motor wires so the ESC (and cowl) will remain plugged in to the motor, but off to the side, when the battery comes out.

You'll see it at a contest -- eventually.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Electrocuting the Atlantis
« Reply #79 on: March 30, 2020, 03:04:52 PM »
Cowl sanded down everywhere, silkspanned, and I'm starting to build up primer.

It doesn't appear that Paul used silkspan or other material to fill the grain of the wood, yet those parts of the cowl that survived our various modifications were glass-smooth.  I'd like to know how he did that.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Electrocuting the Atlantis
« Reply #80 on: March 30, 2020, 11:33:00 PM »
Only if I messed up!  My plan is that there'll be enough slack in the motor wires so the ESC (and cowl) will remain plugged in to the motor, but off to the side, when the battery comes out.

You'll see it at a contest -- eventually.
It is not a problem at all once you get used to it.  Just be careful not to put pressure on the connectors.  Also keeps the cowl from getting stepped on.

Ken








 
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Electrocuting the Atlantis
« Reply #81 on: April 02, 2020, 11:24:58 AM »
Ultra boring, but it's getting there -- prime, sand, prime, work, sand, prime, all work, sand, prime, all work and no, sand, prime, all work and no play, sand, prime, all work and no play makes, sand,

all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.
all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.

Oh, man, even though I'm working this isolation is getting to me...
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Electrocuting the Atlantis
« Reply #82 on: May 02, 2020, 01:22:06 PM »
Well, I screwed up -- I started with "I'm gonna make it shiny no matter how bumpy it is" to "I'm going to make it shiny and smooth".  That led to sanding through the silkspan, which led to fuzzies that would not go away (see Silkspan (yes -- silkspan) fuzzies?!?).

So I stripped as much as I could off of the cowl (including some dope that felt like wax because of all the castor impregnated in it) and started over.  I think it's going to be better this time -- I took down the bumps that were under the first try, so if anything they are now slight dips to be filled, and I'm certainly not going to get too ambitious with the sandpaper this time around.

I'm also using tissue paper, which seems to be easier to finish on solid wood than silkspan.  It's probably not as strong -- but it's also definitely just a cowl, so it won't be a load-bearing member unless I have a really unfortunate landing "event".
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Electrocuting the Atlantis
« Reply #83 on: May 15, 2020, 06:02:25 PM »
Stripped & recovered the cowl -- I've been screwing with it for weeks, only to see the same problems.  It's coming out in spots & bumps in all the places you'd expect if it was leaking oil out of the wood.

I'm giving up -- it's not like I'm losing appearance points.

These past few days I got the wiring done to the point where the motor turns.  I still haven't turned a prop, I need to install a timer switch, there's various bits (not least of which is the battery) that need to be fastened in properly, but I'm close to flying.

Now I need to get time to fly; I may just shorten the lines to 60' so I can fly in my field.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Electrocuting the Atlantis
« Reply #84 on: May 15, 2020, 06:23:48 PM »
Stripped & recovered the cowl -- I've been screwing with it for weeks, only to see the same problems.  It's coming out in spots & bumps in all the places you'd expect if it was leaking oil out of the wood.

I'm giving up -- it's not like I'm losing appearance points.

These past few days I got the wiring done to the point where the motor turns.  I still haven't turned a prop, I need to install a timer switch, there's various bits (not least of which is the battery) that need to be fastened in properly, but I'm close to flying.

Now I need to get time to fly; I may just shorten the lines to 60' so I can fly in my field.

I think you did a great job. Looks like everything's in place and you managed a front mount.

With luck I'll be doing the same but with a rear mount.

Charles
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Electrocuting the Atlantis
« Reply #85 on: May 15, 2020, 08:41:44 PM »
Timer switch.

It's a 2.5mm audio jack with a disconnect feature.  Plugging in the plug (with the "remove before flight" ribbon) turns the timer off; unplugging it turns it on.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline William DeMauro

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Re: Electrocuting the Atlantis
« Reply #86 on: May 16, 2020, 07:01:32 AM »
Timer switch.

It's a 2.5mm audio jack with a disconnect feature.  Plugging in the plug (with the "remove before flight" ribbon) turns the timer off; unplugging it turns it on.
What happens if you forget to put that pin in and plug in a battery. Does the system automatically arm when you plug in your arming plug?
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Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Electrocuting the Atlantis
« Reply #87 on: May 16, 2020, 07:49:42 AM »
Timer switch.

It's a 2.5mm audio jack with a disconnect feature.  Plugging in the plug (with the "remove before flight" ribbon) turns the timer off; unplugging it turns it on.
Putting 40 pounds of stuff in a 30 pound bag can be fun!  Good job.  Nobody that has never done an IC-Electric conversion on a Classic size can appreciate how challenging it can become. HB~> mw~

I see a potential cooling problem on the top ~^  You have plenty of cooling on the bottom but there is no outlet for the battery heat that will be coming from the top.  My Nobler convert looked much like yours.   I cut two exhaust holes at the rear of the nose and angled them to create suction (attached) just like the nose hole on the front over the case on an IC.  I also added a baffle to keep the area behind the battery from creating a pocket and hindering the air from flowing out the aft exit.  Problem solved no more hot battery.

Good Luck - Hope it gets to fly soon.

Ken
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Electrocuting the Atlantis
« Reply #88 on: May 16, 2020, 08:34:13 AM »
What happens if you forget to put that pin in and plug in a battery. Does the system automatically arm when you plug in your arming plug?

Yes.  But that's pretty much what an Igor system does, just with a different switch.

I see a potential cooling problem on the top ~^  You have plenty of cooling on the bottom but there is no outlet for the battery heat that will be coming from the top.

Message received!  I still need to take out a couple of posts that used to locate a battery hold-down and electronics bay mounting board (I had the TUT in there to record flights), and I've certainly considered holes.  I'm a bit reluctant, because it's a sorta-kinda historical plane, and I can't replicate that blue without a lot of work and help (I'm partially color-blind, so just because a paint color matches to me, doesn't mean it matches to any other human).  So I'm going to see if I can make it work with baffles.  If that doesn't work, holes will be cut (you can sit back and wait; holes are probably inevitable.  But I'm going to try).
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Electrocuting the Atlantis
« Reply #89 on: May 16, 2020, 02:42:45 PM »
If that doesn't work, holes will be cut (you can sit back and wait; holes are probably inevitable.  But I'm going to try).
I feel your pain.  Check those batteries as soon as you get down  It they are uncomfortable to hold you have issues.  Issues are not fun.  Remember cutouts do not have to be fuel proof. 

Ken
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Electrocuting the Atlantis
« Reply #90 on: May 24, 2020, 04:34:13 PM »
Battery hold-down strap hold-down straps.

I don't know what current practice is for retrofits, but these will screw into the engine mount bearers with #4 sheet metal screws, probably backed with epoxy because I can't imagine ever taking them out.  I'll loop a velcro dingus of some sort around them (I see cuss words in my future) and over the battery.

This should hold the battery in nicely during maneuvering, while making it easy to take out to feel its temperature, per Ken's last comment!
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Electrocuting the Atlantis
« Reply #91 on: May 24, 2020, 07:18:07 PM »
And, they work!

Some fanatic must have drilled lightening holes in the motor mount rails, because there were voids behind my holes.  I'm not going to worry -- I expect that if it isn't working I'll have warning.

I just need to machine a bushing to locate the Cox-Resinger prop that Howard was nice enough to give me, and then this thing will be ready to fly.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Electrocuting the Atlantis
« Reply #92 on: May 24, 2020, 07:42:11 PM »
And, they work!

Some fanatic must have drilled lightening holes in the motor mount rails, because there were voids behind my holes.  I'm not going to worry -- I expect that if it isn't working I'll have warning.

I just need to machine a bushing to locate the Cox-Resinger prop that Howard was nice enough to give me, and then this thing will be ready to fly.
Excellent - Same straps I use.  Never had one fail or a battery go looking for a way out!

Ken 
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Offline TDM

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Re: Electrocuting the Atlantis
« Reply #93 on: May 25, 2020, 04:04:23 PM »
Tim here is something I noticed. It regards the motor mount cooling. It night not be a problem but better safe than sorry. Most time you have a spinner that has cooling through to cool motors and you must allow the air to pass through the core of the motor. I facilitate this.
Another thing I was looking at was the old motor mounts that can be hacked off.
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Offline John Rist

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Re: Electrocuting the Atlantis
« Reply #94 on: May 26, 2020, 06:46:37 AM »
I agree that it is not good to block the air flow through the motor.  Typical motor mount has cut out for cooling.  See photo.
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Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Electrocuting the Atlantis
« Reply #95 on: May 26, 2020, 12:13:48 PM »
I agree that it is not good to block the air flow through the motor.  Typical motor mount has cut out for cooling.  See photo.
Anyone with better knowledg PLEASE play the BS card on me if this is not right.  I have been told that the Cobra motors have their own internal cooling and what you need to do is not block it.  Depending on the front/rear mount the motor may be venting out the front through the spinner gap.  Since virtually nobody seems to use fans anymore I tend to believe this.

Ken
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Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Electrocuting the Atlantis
« Reply #96 on: May 26, 2020, 12:23:56 PM »
I agree that it is not good to block the air flow through the motor.  Typical motor mount has cut out for cooling.  See photo.

John,

Nice mount. I'm guessing they are not universal? Vendor?

Charles
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Offline John Rist

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Re: Electrocuting the Atlantis
« Reply #97 on: May 26, 2020, 06:25:07 PM »
John,

Nice mount. I'm guessing they are not universal? Vendor?

Charles

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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Electrocuting the Atlantis
« Reply #98 on: May 26, 2020, 06:59:07 PM »
Anyone with better knowledg PLEASE play the BS card on me if this is not right.  I have been told that the Cobra motors have their own internal cooling and what you need to do is not block it.  Depending on the front/rear mount the motor may be venting out the front through the spinner gap.  Since virtually nobody seems to use fans anymore I tend to believe this.

Ken

I'm going to do some experimenting to verify this.  If not, there will be baffling from the scoop down to the motor front end.  I don't like holes in the spinner, so I'll avoid them if I can.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Electrocuting the Atlantis
« Reply #99 on: July 09, 2020, 07:09:27 PM »
Every time I go to work on the Atlantis there's this other project sitting on my bench -- and it's at the paintin' and sandin' phase, and since work has gotten mentally taxing now that I'm working for a startup, I can do with sanding -- it's relaxing, and doesn't require me to do any math.

A little bit because of sociable distancing, but mostly because of the startup job, I'm just not getting a chance to get out to Delta Park and fly.  I made it out Monday, but that was a special case -- and I forgot my JetiBox, and the timer wasn't set up how I wanted it to be for testing.  So I ended up chatting with folks and then going home.

But I can fly in my back yard if the lines, handle to canopy, are no more than sixty feet.  And my current set of lines is getting a bit long in the tooth.  So -- I'm going to shorten them by exactly ten feet and I'm @#$% well going to fly my airplane.  If I don't get it done tonight, then tomorrow.

This is my impediment, with a story over in the Scale forum:



AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.


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