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Author Topic: Electrified Ringmaster S-1  (Read 11865 times)

Offline Dennis Toth

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Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« on: May 17, 2020, 02:35:17 PM »
Since I am working from home and not flying around the country I've had some additional time to do some building. I have a couple other projects going but decided that I could handle one more. I was given a fairly new built S-1 Ringmaster that was powered by a McCoy 35. The ship was well constructed but the original owner used Kevlar thread for leadouts. Although they look pretty good I am not comfortable with them and will change them to steel cable. To do this you more or less need to pull the wing to get clean access to the bellcrank and leadouts. While I'm at it I decided I would do an electric conversion.

To do the conversion I bought a Brodak electric conversion kit. This was designed/developed by Dennis Adaminsin. The parts are laser cut plywood with nicely detailed assembly/modifications instructions sheet. It was originally used on the Brodak version of the S-1 will work with a little creativity. The main change is that the notch/plywood brace in the leading edge is in a solid leading edge rather then the built up one in the Brodak ship. I am adding the notch as indicated in the kit but will only cut back into the leading edge to the point of leaving about 1/8" at the back then add the plywood doubler brace to the back side of the notch area across the center three ribs.

I started by taking the wing out, this was quite a task. The main thing was to use a heat gun and long knife and hacksaw blade to gradually cut through the glue and get the wing free. Damn, this took some effort but I got it out without any damage. Next, started to build the motor/battery conversion box/mount. This will be the template for the cut out of the fuse nose. This system has the battery sliding in and through the fuse from the inboard side. Next will be the fuse cut out to accept the mount/battery box. This cutout is quite large more or less the full width and a little bit more between the motor mounts. This should help reduce the nose weight a bit and help out the balance.

Ok, will let you know how it goes and try to post some pictures.

Best,   DennisT
« Last Edit: May 17, 2020, 03:56:12 PM by Dennis Toth »

Offline John Rist

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2020, 04:41:14 PM »
My S-1 Ring has the battery in the wing.  Makes for a clean look but it took 2 oz of noise weight to balance.  Battery needs to be as far forward as possible.   I believe the Brodak kit does have a forward location for the battery.  y1
John Rist
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Offline John Rist

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2020, 04:51:25 PM »
My setup is as follows: 
Motor,   Cobra 2221/10 KV 1500
Battery,  Hyperion 3S 1600 70C
ESC,  Trunigy Plush 30 amp
Timer, KR.  Initial RPMs set to 9500
Weight ready to launch is 27 oz.

Haven't flown it much yet but has plenty of power.  So far have only run 4 minutes so i am not sure if battery is big enough for a 5 minute run.   My plan was for old time stunt witch I believe can be achieved in 4 to 4.5 minutes.
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Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2020, 08:00:32 PM »
Hold on cowboy, I just saw a set up on the Brotherhood site that showed the battery under the outboard wing next to the fuse set so you can position it about 30% back into the wing. This allows trimming the CG with the battery rather than lead. It looks like he cut down about half way through the leading edge and adding a brace (I think, at least this is what I would do) along the LE and adding a plywood plate that the holds the battery with Velcro straps. I think I might look at this closer as it could work better with the S-1 original kit ship.

Best,    DennisT

Offline jerry v

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2020, 07:28:39 AM »
Dennis,
I built S1 Ringmaster with underwing mount. John Cralley advised me, thank you, John! I mount bellcrank on the inner wig , leaving all room for battery tray on the bottom of outer wing. CG was correct without lead.

Jerry


Variety is the spice of life.

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2020, 08:37:23 AM »
Jerry,
I did see Johns photos and that was what made me rethink using the Brodak approach. It looks like the pocket goes into the leading edge about half way? Did you add any reinforcement to the leading edge after you cut the pocket?

You indicated the CG was good with the battery located back over part of the wing, is your model a full plank slab fuse or hollowed? How much of the battery do you have over the wing 66% (guess from the photo). Last what is the setup - motor, prop, rpm, esc, timer, battery pack, all up ready to flip the switch and fly weight?

Thanks for the info,         DennisT

Offline jerry v

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2020, 09:16:09 AM »
Dennis,
I think the best way to describe my Ringmaster will be all 200 pictures I took during build))
I may start writing essay about it later. I just joined this forum few days ago.
About wing - I glued piece of carbon arrow shaft (hollow tube diameter .228 or so inches) longer than two neighboring ribs space. It was glued in the corner of top and bottom leading edge against front solid part of leading edge. Then, pocket was finally cut to shape right over the carbon tube .Lite ply 1/8 thick lays over carbon tube, supported by balsa in the back to be parallel to fuse center line. Fuselage is solid 1/2 in balsa. Hollowed only in the nose, side plates are 1/64 plywood. Length of packet is front edge of plywood bellcrank Mount . Width is enough for 4 cell 2200 lipo plus Velcro strap. Wing was already built for glow power, so modifying it was little time consuming. I don’t remember all information, I will write it later. But it is 4 cell 2200 lipo, Brodak 1100 Kv Arrowwind motor, Brodak ESC, KR timer, 10x5 APC prop. Weight ready to fly is 30 oz .

Jerry
Variety is the spice of life.

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2020, 11:29:01 AM »
I have made some good progress this week. I was able to remove the wing as I need to have full access to remove and replace the bellcrank and leadouts. The original builder used Kevlar cord for leadouts. This is very tough stuff but I like steel cable. Also the bellcrank has a very long arm to the pushrod hole and I feel it would be a challenge to get smooth control with it unless I used a 2" tall tail horn, not practical. Once out I took the weight - 13 1/2 oz. Pretty heavy, even for a Sterling kit wing. I started to open up the planking to get to the bellcrank and saw some of the reason for all the weight. There was plywood everywhere. For a little old Ringmaster you would have thought it was ready for the 200 lb. pull test. After looking at this I decided that I needed to do some serious weight reduction and would need to remove the covering entirely. This was a shame cause it had some great graphics but you can't reduce weight from the outside.

After all the covering was removed it is down to 9 1/2oz. Now I can put some lightening holes in all that plywood and even remove some. Next will be to add some lightening holes to the ribs. Last will be to work on the leading edge. On one other that I built I hollowed the LE between ribs. This is about the only way I can get some additional weight out. My goal here is to get 1 to 1 1/2 oz. out of the wing wood.

I did start the battery box cut out notch in the leading edge and will finish that shortly. I may set this up with the back dropped down into the wing deeper to help get the vertical CG of the pack up a little more so there isn't as much hanging below the wing centerline. I'll get some pic's soon.

Best,    DennisT

Offline jerry v

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2020, 04:39:35 PM »
Dennis,
More pictures describe better than words))

Jerry
Variety is the spice of life.

Offline jerry v

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2020, 04:46:32 PM »
Battery is 4 cell 2200 lipo

Jerry
Variety is the spice of life.

Offline jerry v

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2020, 04:48:05 PM »
Motor from Brodak
Variety is the spice of life.

Offline jerry v

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2020, 04:52:55 PM »
Bellcrank from the kit I moved to inner wing.

Jerry
Variety is the spice of life.

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2020, 07:03:15 PM »
Jerry,
Great photos, is the bellcrank a 3" or 4"?

Best,   DennisT

Offline jerry v

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2020, 07:39:03 PM »
Thanks, Dennis!
Bellcrank is 3 in, shoulder is 11/16 in (.6875 in) . Kit recommended to use 2 nd hole for pushrod. I cut the extra material away. I made new long style elevator control horn ( copy of old not so strong one) and used middle hole for control rod.

Jerry
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Offline jerry v

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2020, 07:51:15 PM »
Elevator control horn hole is 20 mm (.787 in) from the hinge line.

Jerry
Variety is the spice of life.

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2020, 09:17:37 AM »
Jerry,
Thank you for posting your photos it is very good information. After looking at the original control layout and your photos it became apparent that I needed to move the bellcrank to the inboard side to allow room in the outboard side for the battery pocket. I removed the old 3/16" plywood floor and will install a new 1/8" plywood and reinforce the ribs (looks pretty ratty but will clean up). Will also add a top brace to hold the top of the bellcrank bolt.

Best,    DennisT
« Last Edit: May 25, 2020, 09:38:48 AM by Dennis Toth »

Offline jerry v

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2020, 09:56:34 AM »
Dennis,
I glued balsa sticks on the bottom of bellcrank plywood plate. Sanded flush with the ribs. Balsa sheeting will reinforce the bellcrank mount and later battery pocket will be cut into the 3/4 distance of plate in the outer wing. Top of belcrank is open, 6-32 screw with big flat washer under head and nylon locknut on the top. It’s enough strength to hold pull test. If you add the reinforcement on the top of bellcrank bolt , it’s a plus for strength. And then you can make battery pocket longer to have more room for CG adjustment.

Jerry
Variety is the spice of life.

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2020, 06:21:21 AM »
Jerry,
With the battery positioned in the pocket and all the electronics on the outboard side of the fuse how much outboard wing tip weight did you need to add? Wondering if I need to add a tip weight box or if I might actually need one (small one) on the inboard side.

Best,    DennisT

Offline jerry v

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2020, 09:09:06 AM »
Dennis,
I wasn’t sure if I needed weight box on outside wing, because battery is taking care of that. But in the last moment before covering I permanently glued 1/2 oz of lead into outboard wingtip. Intuition, or else...)) I think my Ringmaster is flying better wit it. After first flights I mowed leadouts forward toward LE about 3/8 in. Maybe because I turn axis of motor 5 degrees outside of circle. I use “passive” KR timer.

Jerry
Variety is the spice of life.

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2020, 03:02:59 PM »
I've made good progress on the build today. The battery box floor with strap slots and sides are in. Next will add the reinforcing rails top and bottom to be the belt and suspenders to hold the battery base plate in position. After that will install the bellcrank and center planking. I have done a little lighting to the leading edge and inboard wing ribs. The wing is now at 9 1/4oz. I need to then apply a light cover and finish. Hope to hit around 31 oz. ready to fly which would be 7 oz. less then the original IC version.

Best,    DennisT

Offline FLOYD CARTER

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2020, 05:45:36 PM »
Have to admit.  A electric S-1 is the quickest and easiest way to build a relaxed Sunday flyer.

Mine is slightly undersized to fit the motor I had.

Everything hangs out in the breeze!  Doesn't seem to matter much.
89 years, but still going (sort of)
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Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2020, 04:45:03 PM »
Making slow forward progress. As I got working on the battery box and bellcrank mount I decided to remove all the old center sheeting and use some lighter stock also allows me to install the sheeting correctly over the rips not inside them. I have now completed the battery box with the hold down Velcro straps, bellcrank mount and rib reinforcements. I added a tip weight box and am in the process of installing adjustable position leadout guide.

My Castle Creation Talon 35 ESC arrived Saturday and I picked up the On/Off switch I needed. After I finish the wing I will work on mounting the ESC, Timer and switch in the fuse. I am probably going to go with a front mount maybe add a 6mm flanged rear bearing (Boca Bearing MF106-UU PS2). I did this on my electric Tutor II and it worked very well. 

Best,   DennisT

Offline jerry v

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2020, 07:35:25 PM »
Dennis, front mount is better looking. Maybe it’s more protection for motor shaft in case of crash. More room behind the motor for battery installation ( no shaft sticking out). No extra parts like prop adaptor. Just collet on the shaft. I don’t think there’s any more positive points.
Negative about front motor mount especially on the profile fuselage is vibration. To make fuse more rigid you add extra weight on the very end, this is making shift of  CG more forward. Motor wires have to be guided away from rotating can. Motor cooling is not efficient.
In the time when I did my Ringmaster modification, I was considering front mount for better appearance. But reason for underwing mount of battery is nose heavy CG. I tried to build the nose as light and strong as possible. I made new fuselage from solid 1/2 balsa, drilled some holes in the nose area, did not use any hardwood reinforcements. I used 1/64 plywood for sides. As you see, with Brodak motor diameter 1.545 in there is not much “meat” left in fuselage for front mount.

Jerry
Variety is the spice of life.

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #23 on: June 07, 2020, 11:19:21 AM »
Moving forward today, test fit the fuse with pushrod. Also checked the battery in pocket, looks good. Next will add the top bellcrank support then start planking.

Best,   DennisT

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2020, 09:19:11 PM »
Wing new center sheeting completed and fuse test fit. Looks pretty good and all up is now 10.5 oz. I'm going to use Micafilm for covering. Next up will be to build the motor mount then fit ESC, Timer and switch into the fuse.

Best,    DennisT

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #25 on: June 11, 2020, 12:41:45 PM »
More progress, front mount cut and fit to motor. Laying out the rest of the power components on fuse. I like to recess them into the fuse. Below photo shows expected location of ESC, Switch, timer.

I hate messy wires just laying about. I can cut to length the ESC power and motor wires but the timer has a flat connector, anyone know what this type of connector is call and can you remove the inner wire connectors and reposition?

Next step is to hog out the back of the motor area and sides of the old motor mounts to fit the motor in place, then on to the other component recessing.

Best,   DennisT

Offline William DeMauro

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #26 on: June 11, 2020, 01:53:45 PM »
What's the big switch for?
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Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #27 on: June 11, 2020, 02:42:49 PM »
William,
I use a toggle switch as the positive shut-off, this one is pre-wired. I hog out the fuse on one side and mount the switch through the plywood on the other side. It is easy to tell a helper not familiar with electric to just flip the switch down to shut it all off after the flight or for emergency during launch. I know its a bit heavier then the deans plug method but you don't lose the plug and simple for a helper to understand. In the photo it shows about where I will mount it but it will actually come out on the inboard side of the fuse with the wires between the ESC and battery.

Best,    DennisT

Offline William DeMauro

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #28 on: June 11, 2020, 04:35:48 PM »
Dennis,
 I understand that and it makes some sense but why bother on a profile, when you can just pull the plug? I always tried to avoid switches as I was always afraid they would fail. Instead I always went with some other plug in method on my built ups (deans or bullet connectors). On profiles I just leave the plug exposed.. It is good to know that If I did want to put a switch in a Ringmaster sized plane that it will hold up.
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Offline CircuitFlyer

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #29 on: June 11, 2020, 07:39:17 PM »
Dennis,

The flat connector is a standard servo connector.  RC guys know all about them.  The word "standard" is applied very loosely.  Yes, you can shorten the wires.  Your hobby shop will likely have some spare crimp style female pins to fit the connector in stock. If you are lucky they may have a crimp tool as well.

Paul
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Offline jerry v

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #30 on: June 12, 2020, 06:38:31 AM »
Dennis,
Front mount gives you all the room for electronics! As for helper/ launcher it may be easier to have power switch and the timer button above speed controller? And ESC to be bellow, closer to the battery under the wing? I will put the red heat shrink on the toggle of the switch, so in emergency any bystander will see it.

Jerry
Variety is the spice of life.

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #31 on: June 12, 2020, 07:20:08 PM »
Got the front mount and motor fit to the fuse. The way I do the mount is to use brass "L" clips that bolt through the motor mount and down through the old hardwood motor mounts. I have used a third clip on the bottom through the plywood doubler. Another option is to use a rear bearing to hold the motor from yawing with just the two top clips. For the rear bearing you position the mount/motor then add the rear bearing in the properly hold the motor position. The advantage of the two clip/rear bearing is easy of removal of the motor, just unbolt the two top bolts and pull the motor and mount out the front.

Today I ordered the servo plug kit and the matching crimp tool (google servo plug kit). There are several YouTube videos that show making up the pin ends for the plugs. This allows shorting the timer connection wire off the ESC. Hope to clean-up the wiring next week as I start to set the equipment on the fuse.

Best,    DennisT 
« Last Edit: June 12, 2020, 07:52:28 PM by Dennis Toth »

Offline John Rist

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #32 on: June 13, 2020, 04:56:14 AM »

Today I ordered the servo plug kit and the matching crimp tool (google servo plug kit). There are several YouTube videos that show making up the pin ends for the plugs. This allows shorting the timer connection wire off the ESC. Hope to clean-up the wiring next week as I start to set the equipment on the fuse.

Best,    DennisT
I always just cut the control cable, remove a section, and splice back together.  Good solder joints and shrink tubing finishes up the job.
John Rist
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Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #33 on: June 17, 2020, 10:03:51 AM »
Roughed out the component recess boxes and switch mount. Need to sand smooth the seal with CA and it will be ready for paint. Also completed the front mount and clips. One lesson learned was to make sure there is enough room in the mount layout to include the mount bolts. Mine work with blind nuts but for fiber lock nuts it was to close to the motor, would have needed about 1/16" more in the bottom tab area to use fiber lock nuts.

Next will be the positioning of the motor and mount on the fuse and installing the mount bolts and bottom trough rails (these are just small strips of lite ply on either side of the mount bottom section to prevent movement.

Best,   DennisT
« Last Edit: January 27, 2021, 06:27:36 AM by Dennis Toth »

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #34 on: June 24, 2020, 02:20:30 PM »
Slow progress this week. Got wing dings filled and sanded it is ready for a coat of clear then final sanding before covering. Fitted the motor bolts/clips mount to the fuse. Fuse is rough primed and now can be final sanding and repaint black. After that I will mount all the equipment and adjust the wire length for a clean fit.

Best,    DennisT

Offline John Rist

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #35 on: June 24, 2020, 04:20:30 PM »
Slow progress this week. Got wing dings filled and sanded it is ready for a coat of clear then final sanding before covering. Fitted the motor bolts/clips mount to the fuse. Fuse is rough primed and now can be final sanding and repaint black. After that I will mount all the equipment and adjust the wire length for a clean fit.

Best,    DennisT
Hopefully the motor mount will be epoxied in as well as held in place with the angle brackets.  Looks like the brackets could flex.   They may be stiffer then they look.  n~
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Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #36 on: June 24, 2020, 06:43:46 PM »
John,
The mount clips have bolts both through the clip and mount plate and through the old hardwood IC motor mounts (this is a conversion). I have used this mount design on several conversions and solid bolts through the hardwood mounts are very solid. Once the basic alignment is done I will be adding a bottom track that fit on either side of the bottom mount plate (between the old mounts). Additionally I will be adding a rear bearing that keeps the motor from twisting during maneuvers (ala Bob Hunt). I know of one flyer that had epoxy mount plates crack lose even after adding fiberglass over the fuse/mount joint. Bolts with loctite have worked for IC since the beginning and work just as good with electric. 

Best,   DennisT

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #37 on: June 29, 2020, 05:53:48 PM »
Moving forward a little primed the nose, all the component pockets and sanded. Then because I need to paint in the house and it is like 85% humidity I decided to use Tamiya acrylic paint (not needing it to be fuel proof). This is used by the scale plastic modelers and car guys. It goes on by airbrush. I tried to use a "can" of propellent since it is only the nose. Well this wasn't such a great idea. The "can" works good for a very short while, then it gets cold and pressure goes all over the place. I wound up getting a small container of water to get a little more out of it. This caused it to warm very quickly and spit liquid propellent along with the paint. This caused the paint to dry funny in spots as it was cold and to thick. In a few spots it was sticky and soft. I finally took some thinner on a paper towel and wiped it down. This thinned the thickness and allowed it to dry. Still not great but I can do some sanding and reshoot it, should be fine. In the end I wound up buying a simple airbrush compressor from Harbor Freight that has an adjustable pressure regulator and water trap. From what I found online it should be just what I need. Does anyone use an airbrush for painting these Ringmaster size ships?

I hope to get the components mounted and wiring cut to length and connectors on this week. Then on to the wing covering.

Best,   DennisT

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #38 on: July 02, 2020, 09:59:15 AM »
Yesterday, after consulting with Charles, I sanded the surface smooth, filled in some minor dings that showed up then took my temp/humidity gauges (cheap from internet) outside and watched as the morning progressed. By 11am the humidity dropped to below 65%. I then used the Krylon clear to seal the primer and dings. By evening it had dried completely with a nice hard surface.

I got a little aggressive with the clear and didn't hold the fuse flat  until it gassed off a bit. I hung it tail down which caused a couple minor runs. I let it dry over night then this morning sanded out the runs and am again waiting for the humidity to drop to apply the Krylon black to the nose. After that I can start mounting components and getting wiring trimmed. Hopefully, will get that done for the weekend then once my Brodak order with the Stix-It comes in will do the mica film covering.

Best,   DennisT

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #39 on: July 16, 2020, 09:52:38 AM »
After several days of trying to get the nose painted with Rustoleum black and clear I finally got reasonably smooth paint and clear. I will not be using Rustoleum again as it is very touchy to how thick the coat goes on and the recoat time. Basically if you get it a little to thick it wrinkles. Then you need to sand it down wait 2 days and try again. The 2X Rustoleum is worst then the plaid can stuff, much more paint delivered per pass.

Photo below is the nose with the unpainted motor mount plate, clips and bottom rail. There is another rail in back of the mount plate to prevent yaw movement. I will also add a rear bearing to provide additional support. Will post photo once done.

Best,   DennisT

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #40 on: July 24, 2020, 06:15:01 AM »
Trying to move forward and get the motor mounted with the correct alignment both vertical and yaw. I had intended to install a rear bear but as you can see in the photo after fitting everything in the motor pocket it is just to low in the cutout to get a support bracket to fit. Plan B - install with bottom rails. I made new bottom rail pieces that are a little taller then the original ones to really hold the bottom of the mount plate. As I test fit everything with the spinner and prop I noticed that one point of the rotation was closer to the fuse then the other. The motor I had on the shelf was one I replaced in my Stuka as I thought it had a bent shaft. I later thought it was just a prop mount flange that was a little oversize and not fitting tight on the shaft so I figured it would be OK. Wrong it was bent. I had ordered a shaft way back but never installed it in the motor.

The motor is a Turnigy 3542 - 1000kv (equivalent to a 2820 by everyone else's designation code). It has a front mount pattern spacing of two bolts at 25mm and two at 19mm. I looked on Hobby King site and they are out of stock on a replacement but did find one in NJ shop so order it. I then decided to try an replace the shaft in the old motor. Looking online there are some great videos from the Innovation group that goes through the whole procedure. I don't have a press but found that my drill press with the jaws all the way close works good enough. I used my heat gun to heat the end of the bell and pushed the old shaft out and the new one in. Not to hard just have to make sure you don't heat the magnet area just the end bell.

Every thing is now back on the fuse and it is just a little closer to the fuse then I like so I need to make up an 1/32" shim to drop into the prop flange hole to move it out just a bit. The shaft is 3.5mm so I can make this from some 1/8" steel rod with the cutoff saw.

Next I will start to position the components in their cutouts and get the wiring started.

Best,   DennisT
« Last Edit: September 14, 2020, 10:21:37 AM by Dennis Toth »

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #41 on: July 27, 2020, 07:38:43 PM »
Over the weekend I epoxied in the bottom retainer rails for the motor mount, this keeps the bottom of the mount plate secure. This will be painted black. I also installed the Velcro base strips to the component pockets and installed the power switch. Will start on finishing off the wing covering this week.

Best,   DennisT

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #42 on: August 26, 2020, 02:51:17 PM »
Finally got my shop fan secured, this is a 20" light weight Lasko Box fan from Home Depot(~$20). It is only 4" wide and fits right on the window sill and exhausts out of the window. I used the box it came in to fill in the open window area. It just happens to fit perfect and works very good.

After looking online for the weights of various covering options good old silkspan and dope with a medium finish is lighter then the colored Mica film I had planned on using. I had some medium silkspan that I dry yellow with Rite dye many years ago so will use that to try and save a little weight. I will not go for a high gloss just a smooth filled look.

Now that the fan is in place, I got back to the E S-1 Ringmaster and covered half the wing with medium dyed silkspan. It came out really well, the fan kept the dope fumes from coming out of the shop, wife didn't even know I had dope open in the house. Next will dope the open bay's on that half. Once I get a few coats on the first half will do the other half.

Best,    DennisT
« Last Edit: January 27, 2021, 06:45:20 AM by Dennis Toth »

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #43 on: September 24, 2020, 01:54:41 PM »
I finally received my Meterk crimp tool (from Ebay, they are between $12 -$16) and after watching a few YouTube videos on how to install servo plugs  I was ready to give it a try. In the videos they recommend doing a few practice crimps to get the feel for how the tool works and how to position the crimps. At first I thought, well that's for R/C guys that don't build, I can do this straight away. Then I thought just to make sure I understand everything I would do one test. Well, that was the right decision. The first crimp was close, but didn't get it prefect. I did a second one and got it right. I then put all the components in place and marked where I wanted to cut the wires (this was the wire that goes from the ESC to the timer, shortened it by about 7"). From that point it only to 5 minutes to do all three crimps. The Meterk crimp tool (works the same as the one in the video) is very easy to use and the crimps are not expensive and were available at my LHS. The wiring is now neat and pretty. After finishing the wiring mod I did smoke test it by plugging into Castle Link and programing the flight settings, all went fine.

()


The wing is now fully doped with 12 coats of thinned clear. I will likely paint the center section black then install in the fuse for final fit-up.

Best,    DennisT
« Last Edit: November 13, 2020, 06:21:08 AM by Dennis Toth »

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #44 on: September 25, 2020, 03:55:51 PM »
MM,
They are actually little dies in each jaw. I was amazed at how easy it was to do the crimp after I did a few practice crimps. The more difficult part was feeding them into the plastic housing and getting it to lock. One was easy the second took a little work but the third was a pain until I figured out that you need to make sure the crimp pin is flat (my first one had a little curve to it) and to push it forward until the housing keeper tab is flat.

Best,   DennisT

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #45 on: October 07, 2020, 08:54:24 AM »
Progress over the weekend, wing mounted and sealed back in fuse (please excuse the mess in the shop, I tend to keep equipment where I can find it, old habit). Took a bit to get things level and straight but used some scrap balsa strips and incident meter/levels to get thing in alignment. Next step is to complete the tough up paint on fuse and wing joint then take off the masking paper and install components, maybe this weekend fly.

Best,   DennisT

Offline John Rist

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #46 on: October 07, 2020, 10:25:32 AM »
Progress over the weekend, wing mounted and sealed back in fuse (please excuse the mess in the shop, I tend to keep equipment where I can find it, old habit). Took a bit to get things level and straight but used some scrap balsa strips and incident meter/levels to get thing in alignment. Next step is to complete the tough up paint on fuse and wing joint then take off the masking paper and install components, maybe this weekend fly.

Best,   DennisT
If was raining, windy, Etc last weekend at your location you could fly the alternate date this weekend and get in on Ringmaster Fly-A-thon.
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Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #47 on: November 05, 2020, 07:43:41 PM »
Well it's been a long few weeks to get some things done on the ship. First had to get the center planking sealed and painted, then it was what to do with the trim. I decided to do a strip of checkerboard on the inboard wing. So there were a couple choices on how to apply it. I thought about doing the MonoKote trim strip but since this is on the open bay I thought it would not conform without wrinkles. Then could have done individual checks and put them in place, to much work. I decided to do paint. I will say that it was a bit more work then I thought cause I wanted it to go in the second from the end panel. This is 2" so I needed squares that were 0.4" (13/32"). I was hoping to use standard tape but needed to cut to the 0.4" width. I made up a couple jig blocks to set the correct width. I used the 3M Delicate Surface top on top and regular blue painters tape for the bottom. Both worked but the blue tape seemed to leave less residue. Once I got the tape in place I gave it two coats of clear then did the red color top coat. Next, will be to add the Ringmaster decal then install the components and go fly.

Best,      DennisT

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #48 on: November 06, 2020, 09:43:29 AM »
Checkerboard update. After pulling the tape I was looking at the pattern and realized that only half the checks were there. I need to now tape over the red ones and get the second half of the checks painted. Having said that I noticed that the tape had a residue on the surface. This happened with both the 3M Pink and Blue tapes (I did the top with pink and bottom with blue). Checking on the net I found out that none of the 3M standard paint tapes work well with nitro lacquers (or Dope). Seems these tapes are a little porous and work with latex or enamels by the thinner for lacquers gets to the adhesive and it releases from the tape when you remove it. I think the 3M fine line tapes work but they are really pricey, am looking at other options.

Now that the tape is off I need to get the residual adhesive off. Online suggestions were Napata (lighter fluid), denatured alcohol, degreaser, and Goo Gone. I happen to have them all, none worked very well. Then remembered that WD40 removes unwanted bumper stickers and such. I had that in the shop so on a small spot tried it and BAM it worked. Now I just need to get the WD40 off so I can paint the rest of the checks. For this I used the denatured alcohol and that seems to do the trick. I will give it a second wipe down then before taping use the degreaser just to make sure. Not sure I ever want to do checkerboard again.

Best,    DennisT
« Last Edit: January 27, 2021, 06:55:06 AM by Dennis Toth »

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #49 on: November 07, 2020, 08:33:53 PM »
Ok, progress today got the rest of the checkerboard. First cleaned off the WD40 with denature alcohol followed by a second cleaning with degreaser. I used the 3M pink tape over the newly painted checks. I used a thin brushed to put clear on the edge. It came out pretty good, not perfect but for a Ringmaster its ok.

Best,   DennisT

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #50 on: December 08, 2020, 08:05:30 AM »
The ship is now complete but I am waiting on a new HobbyStar 2814 - 950kV motor. This will be about 2.5 ish oz. lighter then the HobbyStar 2820 -1000kV and similar to what others are using in Ringmasters. I received the TP 5S 1350mah battery packs and this should save another 2.5oz over the 4S  22000mah. All up I expect to be around the 31 oz. mark ready to fly. One thing I added was a strip of clear vinyl over the first open bay next to the battery area. This is to protect the silkspan from a battery lead smacking against it and popping through. Hope the motor gets here around Christmas week and I should be able to start test flights.

Best,   DennisT


Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #51 on: January 03, 2021, 12:44:09 PM »
Got the new Hyperion 4mm Xl adapter that Will DeMauro recommended, it fits perfect with the Great Planes 1 3/4" electric spinner and APC 9x6 prop. It gives enough space from the backplate and is all the way into the collet shaft. Also got the Thunder power 5S   1350mah pack. It is 1 1/4oz lighter than the 4S  2200 I was originally planning, it is a bit shorter than the 2200 pack and fits the battery pocket better than the 2200 (shear luck, but as they say better to be lucky than good any day). It gives an inch or so to move the battery fore or aft to trim the CG. Next need to smoke test the system on the 5S. Have already done a test run on 4S so got the motor rotation correct and all the wire joints worked fine.

Best,    DennisT
« Last Edit: January 27, 2021, 06:58:30 AM by Dennis Toth »

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #52 on: January 10, 2021, 11:20:54 AM »
The ship is complete and I thought ready to go but when I put the ship on the storage rake in the shop I got a look at the wing trailing edge and saw the outboard wing had a warp. I had just completed all the ground checks and the 5S  1350 mah TP pack worked great with the HoppyStar 2814   920 kV motor. I have the CC ESC set for fixed rpm of 11K (this is the minimum the ESC will go in governing mode) in control line mode with all the settings on medium. I found a RC Timer carbon fiber 10x5 prop that give a ground amp load of 16 which should be around 14 or less in the air. That was a gold to make the 5 minute flight time with the 1350 mah capacity.

So finding the warp I set up a jig and weights and set the ship in place, did the heat, soak, heat again and put it in place with the weights on the trailing edge. It has a little twist past the point of straight. I will be re-heating a few time over a couple days and hopefully this will get the wing straight, if not I will add a tab.

Best,    DennisT

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #53 on: January 13, 2021, 05:53:47 PM »
OK today was first flight day. The heat seemed to get the warp under control. I used the RC Timer CF 10x5 pusher set at 11K. This prop gives a ground load of 16 amps which should give something less the 14 in the air. Ok, the rain has gone and its in the 60's temperature wise.

Setup, switch on, spin-up and off we go. Smooth take-off but lap time was slow at 5.5 balance pretty closed. Controls seemed very good not touchy and very controllable.

Next will work on getting the lap time up by going to an APC 9x5 prop with a little more blade area and the 9" diameter to keep the load down.

Best,    DennisT

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #54 on: January 15, 2021, 06:20:43 PM »
Today I finally got the lap time to 4.9 sec, with a 9x6 APCE depitched to 5.5, with the 11K rpm. So far the use of the 5S  1350mah pack with the 2814  910kV HobbyStar motor has worked well now that I have the right prop. Next, will add flight time and sneak up on the full flight time of 4m 50sec for OTS and keep a check on motor and ESC temperature.

Best,    DennisT

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #55 on: January 17, 2021, 12:10:23 PM »
After a few short test flight with the lighter battery and motor the ship I feel the ship is a tad tail heavy. I hate to add weight so I started looking to see where I could remove weight from the tail and move the battery forward. I was able to reduce the tail horn weight a bit (it is a very large 1/4 scale RC horn that gave lots of height to slow the controls) next reduce the tail skid hardware a bit. This helped but I needed more. I thought about a different motor that would be low kV and weight about 1/4 oz more as one option. Then looked at the battery location. I had originally thought I was going to use a 4S  2200mah pack with a 5 1/2oz motor. This battery is about 3 1/4" long. The battery box was set up for this. When I switched to the lighter motor (3oz) and 5S  1350mah pack I saved a total of 3oz but this shifted that CG back a bit. It was close but still needs to move forward about 3/8 to 3/4". Looking at the available room I could see a chance to hang part of the battery over the leading edge and still secure it solidly it I added a plate to add a forward strap. Doing this now gives me enough movement to fine tune the CG.

Best,    DennisT

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #56 on: January 19, 2021, 07:15:32 PM »
Today I got in a few test flights with the forward battery and trim wedge. The forward battery got the CG moved to 1 3/4" back from the leading edge. The trim wedge worked well but it needs a little more thickness as once I flipped it over in a lazy eight it got a bit soft. The wedge is like a trim tab but is simply a section of trailing edge stock turned around and put on the bottom of the wing panel that needs lift. I first saw this used on gliders and it is very neat way of doing this.

Best,    DennisT

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #57 on: January 22, 2021, 07:04:57 PM »
Good news - Bad news. The good news - the new wedge flattened the wings so should be good to go. Bad news is the 5S  1350mah isn't big enough. I did a test flight for 2 and 1/2 min. figuring that this would give a current draw down for half a flight (OTS). Well it drew 725 mah which is about 150mah to much, but the motor and battery were only warm to the touch. So I'm going to have to go to the larger 4S   2200mah thunder power pack. I have looked at 1800mah packs but they are the same weight as the Thunder Power ProLite 2200mah packs that I already have.

Best,     DennisT

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #58 on: February 16, 2021, 06:18:56 PM »
Well my rescue Ringmaster has just become the "6 Million Dollar" Ringmaster. Was out doing a feel out flight and doing quit well. Finally got the pitch (10x6.7) right to get the lap time at 4.6. All felt good, wings were level, new BadAss 2320  820kV with a 5S  1350mah pack. Then it happened. While performing a vertical 8 the upper outside loop was a bit big and I felt there wasn't enough air to complete the inside, so I held the down climbed a bit then went to complete bottom loop and boom! I got a little up wind and a gust hit it in just as it got to the 5 o'clock point and lost tension and boom.

That was the bad news, fortunately the damage was mostly to the fuse. All the rest of parts were easy to fix, one little tear in one panel of the wing. So I can rebuilt it better!!! After looking at the fuse I decided I would need to build a new one. Turns out this part was really heavy at 5+ oz. So the goal is to drop at least 4 oz off the old 36oz flying weight. The new fuse is cut out and getting ready to do the motor mount which will be a lot lighter then the old IC conversion.

Also steamed out the twist in the outside wing. I had tried using a heat gun but that didn't work. Today I used a simple old tea kettle with steam out the spout. I did the steam thing and jigged it up. I had it weighted for 5 hrs and needed to move to a new location, DAM it worked!! I didn't think it would do anything that the heat gun didn't do but I was WRONG, steam works, don't really know why but it does.
 

Best,   DennisT
« Last Edit: October 26, 2021, 03:40:17 PM by Dennis Toth »

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #59 on: February 23, 2021, 06:35:08 AM »
The 6MM$ Ringmaster rebuild is moving along. One thing I found while going through the salvaged parts was that the elevator had a limited amount of what would have been down elevator caused by its leading edge shape against the stab trailing edge. The edges were both square in a few spots. This just stop the elevator from going to full down and could have contributed to the poor outside loop size that lead to the crash. This has been corrected.

Next step will be to finish the lighting holes in the core of the fuse. By removing the extra tail weight the balance should be better with the smaller BadAss 2320 motor and also allow the battery to be positioned a little further back in the battery box.

Best,    DennisT

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #60 on: February 23, 2021, 10:14:41 AM »
DAM it worked!! I didn't think it would do anything that the heat gun didn't do but I was WRONG, steam works, don't really know why but it does.
 Best,   DennisT
Relaxes the grain in the balsa.  When it dries it will stay where it was wet.  Just like molding stays molded.  We used to call that taking the "Girr Out".

Ken
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Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: $6 Million Dollar Ringmaster (aka: Electrified Ringmaster S-1)
« Reply #61 on: April 05, 2021, 02:17:57 PM »
The $6 million dollar Ringmaster is making some forward progress. I finished laminating the 1/16" cross grain balsa to the 3/8" fuse core (with holes) using the finishing resin. The first side I did the brush and scrap but really didn't get much off. On the second side I just brushed it on smooth but thin and add the cross grain wood. Both sides seemed to be on very solid but I had one piece on the first side that didn't adhere well so I needed to apply a bit of resin to get it down solid. Now that is has cured the fuse is 1.6 oz. It is very very stiff. Next will add the 1/32" birch plywood doubles and install the motor mount.

Best,    DennisT

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #62 on: May 16, 2021, 07:28:58 AM »
Have been able to get some work done on the rebuilt. New fuse is finished and ready for the On/Off switch mount hole to be cut, then will fit wing and be ready for paint and final assembly. New fuse is only 3oz compared to 7 for the original Sterling with the 1/8" plywood they used. This will help this ship a lot. Also this time I will tape the elevator hinge line before hand. Big prop is for motor thrust-line alignment.

Best,   DennisT
« Last Edit: May 16, 2021, 11:18:13 AM by Dennis Toth »

Offline Todd Stimpson

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #63 on: May 21, 2021, 11:39:30 AM »
This thread has been very helpful. Thanks for sharing.

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1 Rebuild
« Reply #64 on: August 25, 2021, 08:58:50 AM »
Well after the "Bum" the old fuse was pretty much broke beyond worth repair so I decided to build a new fuse. Turns out the old fuse was Sterling bomber wood. By itself it weighted almost 9 oz (with old motor mounts and kit plywood). The new one is 4oz with the nose designed for electric, cross grain sides and 1/32" ply doubler and a single layer of 3/4oz fiberglass. Fuse is very stiff in bending and twist. This with the BadAss motor, 5 cell TP 1350 pack should get me close to 30oz, which should be fine.

I did a rough balance and it looks like I will move the battery to the side of the nose and put the electronic components in the wing compartment.

Next step is mounting the stab/elevator to the fuse, then paint fuse and install on wing, need to patch covering in a few spots also.

Best,    DennisT

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #65 on: October 01, 2021, 03:36:10 PM »
Making slow progress on the Rebuild S1 Electrified Ringmaster. All main parts in base paint. I used a product that is a water-based acrylic - Liquitex Professional Spray Paint. This is fairly light flat finish that is very much like auto basecoat with no strong odor or need for breathing pack, just a simple mask. It needs a clear top coat, for electric I have used Krylon UV Gloss Clear Coat used for protecting art work.

Best,    DennisT

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #66 on: December 01, 2021, 11:42:16 AM »
Finally, she flys!! I finally got all the electronics onboard for a test flight. All went well, didn't forget to secure any of the components or flight parts. The ship has the BadAss 2320 - 820Kv with the TP 5S 1350 pack. The motor is set for 9600 rpm with an 8 1/2"x 6 APCE-P. First flight was 10 sec just to check out if we had any weird stuff. That went very well, wings are level and glide is smooth with the CG at 1 3/4" back leading edge. Landing was great, very not Ringmaster. Next did a 30 sec. flight and checked the lap time, not where I like it, was 5.3 sec. on 60' C to C lines. I need to push the pitch to 6.5 - 6.75" ish to get to 4.9. That will be the next set of trim flights.

Best,   DennisT
« Last Edit: December 01, 2021, 05:45:35 PM by Dennis Toth »

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #67 on: December 08, 2021, 07:12:36 PM »
Finally, got out to do some additional test trim flights. Increased the prop pitch to 6.5" (APCE P easy to heat pitch) same 9600 rpm. Lap time improved to 4.97 sec. Got the pitch up to 6.75" and the lap time down to 4.84 sec. This felt pretty good on the lines (60' C to C). I will next extend the flight time to 2 1/2 minutes to start checking the rest of the trim and battery load. Did one climb it felt really good. Seems that with the sharp stab leading edge and tape hinge line it turned very crisp. I might need a bit more tip weight but will check this as I fly it more.

Best,   DennisT

Offline Mark wood

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #68 on: December 09, 2021, 08:41:02 AM »
More progress, front mount cut and fit to motor. Laying out the rest of the power components on fuse. I like to recess them into the fuse. Below photo shows expected location of ESC, Switch, timer.

I hate messy wires just laying about. I can cut to length the ESC power and motor wires but the timer has a flat connector, anyone know what this type of connector is call and can you remove the inner wire connectors and reposition?

Next step is to hog out the back of the motor area and sides of the old motor mounts to fit the motor in place, then on to the other component recessing.

Best,   DennisT

I have a good solution for this arm disarm function. I fly with a group of guys whom are steadfast IC junkies and I have managed to train them on the fine art of disarming the battery. My earlier planes I simply passed the battery connector to place where it can be disconnected which works but, they really don't like pulling that plug. It makes them nervous and for fairly good reason, there's lots of tension and they fear breaking something.  I have used a number of different arming devices and now my arming block is simply a bullet connector in the ground wire I pass through the side of the airplane. The socket side I lightly CA glue in to a close fit hole which has a block on the side. If I need to remove the ESC, I can easily loosen the CA with some nitro and pull the socket out. This method is easily adaptable for profile airplanes and I promise it will be more readily accepted by the slimer boys. Here's a photo with a wiring diagram.
Life is good AMA 1488
Why do we fly? We are practicing, you might say, what it means to be alive...  -Richard Bach
“Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that’s not why we do it.” – Richard P. Feynman

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #69 on: December 09, 2021, 01:01:58 PM »
I have used a number of different arming devices and now my arming block is simply a bullet connector in the ground wire I pass through the side of the airplane. The socket side I lightly CA glue in to a close fit hole which has a block on the side.
I really like that.  I make plugs from Deans which is a pain.  I drill holes in the ends of the connectors and solder a piece of 12g wire.   Looks real nice covered with heat shrink.  However, bullets are so easy to work with.  As to the slimers I just sit back and watch them mess with their engines.  Some will never change and that is fine.  Some I am convinced that the reason they fly *IS* to mess with the engine.  It's a hobby, let them do what they love.  Just wish they would mop up their pipe puddles. I really don't cry much when my competition has an overrun.

Ken 

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Offline Mark wood

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #70 on: December 09, 2021, 01:11:04 PM »
I really like that.  I make plugs from Deans which is a pain.  I drill holes in the ends of the connectors and solder a piece of 12g wire.   Looks real nice covered with heat shrink.  However, bullets are so easy to work with.  As to the slimers I just sit back and watch them mess with their engines.  Some will never change and that is fine.  Some I am convinced that the reason they fly *IS* to mess with the engine.  It's a hobby, let them do what they love.  Just wish they would mop up their pipe puddles. I really don't cry much when my competition has an overrun.

Ken

I've pretty much consoled myself to the same conclusion. They are reliving their younger years futzing with the engine. I too just watch or I pack my stuff over to the other circle and get three or four flights in to their one. We have some new blood coming in and they have watched me with easy to operate dead solid motor runs and they are coming over to "the way".

Next season is going to be interesting as I have a couple gallons of nitro and will make fuel for them. Think of the irony. The electric guy making slimer fuel.


 
Life is good AMA 1488
Why do we fly? We are practicing, you might say, what it means to be alive...  -Richard Bach
“Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that’s not why we do it.” – Richard P. Feynman

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #71 on: December 11, 2021, 11:07:21 AM »
Success!! I got out to check the battery draw down on the E-Ringmaster, 2min 30sec flight about half and OTS flight time. It hit the 575 amps total draw down that gives 15% left that I need with the Thunder Power 5S - 1350 mah pack. The APCE-P 8 1/2" x 6.75"(resized 9x6) at 9600 rpm fixed rpm setting in Castle 35A ESC. This pulls the S1 at 4.75 sec lap time on 60" 0.012" lines, it fells really good on the lines. Next will go to full flights and start trimming for the OTS pattern.

Best,    DennisT

Offline jerry v

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #72 on: December 12, 2021, 09:38:38 AM »
Dennis,
Nice work! Science continues?))
What is the flying weight of your electric Ringmaster?
My electric Ringmaster with 4 cell 2200 mAh lipo now is 31 oz flying weight. Last October at the Ringmaster event I flown my electric Ringmaster with Brodak Fm-9 timer and 9x 5 Graupner black electric prop. On 60 ft .015 lines center to center it flew 4.63 - 4.75 seconds per lap. 10860 rpm and 27 Amp draw.
I’m thinking to build one more Brodak Ringmaster S-1 with glow power. Engine-OS.25 FP or LA. It wil be interesting to compare the performance of the models. Glow power will be lighter , target weight is 23 oz.

Jerry
Variety is the spice of life.

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #73 on: December 12, 2021, 10:43:51 AM »
Jerry,
My current all up ready to fly weight is 34oz. This was a Sterling S1 Ringmaster kit, i had to replace the original fuse with a new one designed for electric and saved almost 3oz. The other thing that saves weight is the Thunder Power 5S - 1350mah battery, it is 5.54 oz. It also allowed me to move the pack from a wing pocket to the nose in the traditional tank location on the fuse. This helped get the CG to about 1/3/4" back from the leading edge.

Two other things I did on this rebuild are to shape the stab leading edge to a sharp 1/16" radius and second TAPE THE HINGE LINE. The most improvement comes from taping the hinge line on a Ringmaster.

Best,   DennisT


Offline jerry v

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #74 on: December 12, 2021, 12:37:57 PM »
Jerry,
My current all up ready to fly weight is 34oz. This was a Sterling S1 Ringmaster kit, i had to replace the original fuse with a new one designed for electric and saved almost 3oz. The other thing that saves weight is the Thunder Power 5S - 1350mah battery, it is 5.54 oz. It also allowed me to move the pack from a wing pocket to the nose in the traditional tank location on the fuse. This helped get the CG to about 1/3/4" back from the leading edge.

Two other things I did on this rebuild are to shape the stab leading edge to a sharp 1/16" radius and second TAPE THE HINGE LINE. The most improvement comes from taping the hinge line on a Ringmaster.

Best,   DennisT

Dennis,
When I decided to make my Ringmaster electric, I made stab and elevator for tape hinge style, like in RC gliders. Stabilizer TE and elevator LE sanded 45 degrees from top to bottom like a wooden chisel point. After covering it with the Monocote I used scotch  3/4 wide clear tape on top of the seam and on the bottom trough the channel. It’s a good idea to do it before control horn being installed . Tape served well on all my installations in electric RC and CL hinges. It seals the hinges line, makes stronger tail by holding things together. Easy to repair, if needed. Only one disadvantage in tape / or Monocote hinges: under the heat of sun model changes the trim during the day's temperature change. It’s more noticeable in the fast RC models.
About CG of my Ringmaster - it’s a bit nose heavy, maybe I will put some lead in the tail. Lighter battery won’t survive the 5 min. flight duration , and wing slot is limited on the back))

Jerry

Variety is the spice of life.

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #75 on: December 12, 2021, 05:25:05 PM »
Jerry,
Very nice job, neat equipment installation. On mine I originally had the battery in a pocket under the outboard wing with a TP 4S - 2200 (6.9 oz.). The smaller TP 5S - 1350 mah pack (at 5.43 oz.) works because of the BadAss 2320 -820Kv motor and the cut down APCE P prop sized at 8 1/2" diameter and pitched up to 6 3/4", set at 9600 rpm, allows for a full 5 min flight with 15% left in the tank.

Prop diameter and rpm are the two biggest factors to amp draw. With the lighter battery it needed to be moved forward to keep the CG in range. Other big amp savings was switching to 0.012" lines from 0.015" that I had been using. Might try some Specta lines which could be 0,010" diameter. I need to get more information on how to make-up the terminations, could give a little extra margin or allow a full 9" diameter prop or more with the same pack.

Best,   DennisT

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #76 on: December 27, 2021, 03:58:01 PM »
Success!!! Did a full 5 min flight (good for OTS) today in my E Ringmaster with the BadAss 2320 - 820Kv at 9600 fixed rpm; Thunder Power 5S 1350 mah pack; 60' C to C, 0.012" stainless steel braided lines, lap time 4.7 sec; 8 1/2" diameter by 6.7" pitch APCE P prop (9 x 6 cut and re-pitched). This combination in a Ringmaster saves almost 4 oz over most of the E power packages currently used in Ringmaster size ships to my knowledge. 

Happy New Year,       DennisT

Online Brent Williams

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #77 on: December 27, 2021, 06:10:45 PM »
Success!!! Did a full 5 min flight (good for OTS) today in my E Ringmaster with the BadAss 2320 - 820Kv at 9600 fixed rpm; Thunder Power 5S 1350 mah pack; 60' C to C, 0.012" stainless steel braided lines, lap time 4.7 sec; 8 1/2" diameter by 6.7" pitch APCE P prop (9 x 6 cut and re-pitched). This combination in a Ringmaster saves almost 4 oz over most of the E power packages currently used in Ringmaster size ships to my knowledge. 

Happy New Year,       DennisT

Good results! 

You can get pretty close to that power package weight with a 4s setup if you use a 1550mah battery and something like a Park 480 or Cobra 2808 or Arrowind 2810 (or a 3530 Motor by the can OD measurement method.)   Timer/Battery/ESC/Motor weight should come in around 10oz all together. 
Laser-cut, "Ted Fancher Precision-Pro" Hard Point Handle Kits are available again.  PM for info.
https://stunthanger.com/smf/brent-williams'-fancher-handles-and-cl-parts/ted-fancher's-precision-pro-handle-kit-by-brent-williams-information/

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #78 on: December 27, 2021, 07:30:20 PM »
Brent,
The only 4S - 1550 mah pack I can see is a Glacier  75C. My flight drew 1120 mah out of the TP 5S - 1350 mah giving 17% left in the pack, a little close but close enough. Doing a simple 5 cell to 4 cell convert gives 1400 mah out of a 1550 pack leaves 9.6% left really close, could work. Could save a bit more amps if the prop is cut fo 8 1/4" diameter. Price for the Glacier is $18.50 the TP list is $41.99. Weight of the Glacier is 160 gm vs 157 gm for the TP. Looks like something worth looking into. Only issue is that the 4S is 90mm length and the 5S is only 68mm. With the 5S it fits on the nose were a tank would go, it just fits and gets the balance in the right place. You would need to maybe use a little shorter motor can and setup the motor position to clear the 4S pack length.

Not sure the other motors will hit the same amp draw as the BadAss, to get to the needed amp draw it needs to have a ground amps of less than 15 amp with the 4S, 12 amp with the 5S. Only $6 difference between the Cobra motor and the BadAss, so motor cost is a push. I think my current motor will work with the 4S so might give it a try.

Best,    DennisT
« Last Edit: December 27, 2021, 07:53:55 PM by Dennis Toth »

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #79 on: February 06, 2022, 05:54:22 PM »
Finally, we got some flyable weather. The ship is 33oz with a BadAss 2320  820kV motor on a Thunder Power 5S - 1350mah ProLite pack. ESC is a Castle Creation 35A Talon, timer ZTron. I run an APCE P - 8 1/2x6 3/4 prop (cut down and pitched up APCE P 9x6) at 9650 rpm, on 60' FINS 40G 45LB Test (C to C) Spectra lines, 4.75 sec lap time. This setup save about 1 3/4oz over the commonly use 1800 - 2200 packs.

The FINS 40G Spectra lines are very low drag and saved 4% battery capacity compared to 0.012" stainless steel cable that would be used with this size/wt shipI took the S1 Electric Ringmaster out and tested the FINS 40G, 45LB Test (0.009" diameter) Spectra lines. The objective was to see if using thinner, lighter Spectra lines would reduce drag and use less mah from the pack giving a little more head room in the TP 5S - 1350mah pack. Short answer is we have a winner!!

The I did a first test was the 0.012" stainless steel cable lines (my baseline) vs. PowerPro Maxcuatro 40 LB Test, 0.010" diameter lines. For the SS cable lap time was 4.7; PPMax lap time was 4.8 sec. On the PPMax the plane felt very solid and I didn't notice any real difference in the maneuver's, estimated pull was about 7 lbs. At the end of the test the battery voltage on SS Cable was 18.4V the PPMax was 17.6V, just above cutoff.

Yesterday, the test was with the FINS 40G lines, prepared like the PPMax, double surgeons knot (per the posted video Mike Stinson) using the Larks Head to secure the line clip. Pull tested the lines and all was good to go. Switch on - off we go. Ship felt really good and solid, speed felt right, control response was solid, no sponginess or delay, even when I purposely banged a hard corner just to see.  Lap time was 4.69 sec right on top of the lap time for the 0.012" stainless steel braided cable (4.7 sec).  After the flight comes the real data to see if there is any benefit. Pack is TP 5S - 1350mah, end voltage 18.5V, mah put back on recharge 1093. This left 257 mah in the pack 19%. That is ~4% more reserve that with the 0.012" SS cable so by my tests I have achieved my gold of reducing the amp draw and allows good battery life with this setup.

Best,    DennisT

« Last Edit: March 26, 2022, 05:43:29 PM by Dennis Toth »

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #80 on: April 17, 2022, 11:05:36 AM »
Update on electric S1 Ringmaster - the FINS G40 - 45LB lines have worked very well no stretch or change in control setting. Battery TP 1350mah 5S, usage has been consistent as well with a 15% reserve and lap time of 4.75 sec. One thing that has been a problem is this ship has not been happy doing vertical eights. It kinda does it but not smooth or really round. I have the hinge line sealed and balance is at 17%, it handles all other maneuvers just fine. I'm starting to think that it is losing speed in the top loop (too small a prop) an loosing tension to were it is opening up the loop (Netzband wall?).

Normally with IC one would just lean it out a bit and pickup the speed to see if that did it, but with the electric I am limited on available capacity. I want to add more prop so I did a lot of searches and found the a HobbyStar 5S 1600mah 120C pack (equivalent to about 1950mah 4S) that is 78 mm long and weights about 1oz heavier but fits in the same nose space as the 1350 pack but it should allow a full wide blade 9x6.5. One other thing I might try is opening up the line spacing a bit, maybe not getting as much down elevator as I think I'm putting in for this maneuver.

I think it the ship just needs more pulling power to get through the top outside loop smoothly. Battery should get here in a couple weeks. Till than may try the big prop for short flights.

Best,   DennisT
« Last Edit: April 23, 2022, 05:43:58 PM by Dennis Toth »

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #81 on: May 07, 2022, 11:15:50 AM »
This has been some week for the S1. After getting the new 5S  1600mah HobbyStar battery and finally getting the deans connector clean and reliably connecting it was time to see what props would work since I have more head room. The original set up with the TP 5S  1350mah 25C ProLite worked ok but seemed a little soft particularly in the vertical eight. I checked a few things and decided I might have the controls set up to slow. I compared it to my Stuka and El Diablo and it was considerably slower. I decided to increase the line spacing to the same as I use on the El D. This puts it at 4 1/2" up from 4". I find that particularly in outside maneuvers I go to a comfortable amount of down and that seems to be a little to open for this ship.

On to the prop tests. The motor rpm stays at 9650 to allow low amp draw and still allows the ESC to hold the fixed rpm. Props are all APCE -P. I did a ground test with three props: a cut/repitched 10x5.8 cut to 9 1/2" and pitched up to 7; an 11x5.5 cut to 9 1/8" and pitched up to 7.5 and a 10 x 5.8 pitch up to 7.  The 9 1/2 drew 18.5 amps; the 9 1/8" drew 20 and the 10 drew 17.5 amps. This is were the week got weird.

With the original 1350 pack setup I had an 8 1/2 x 7 prop at a lap time of 4.7. This was a little slow for me and felt soft. At the field the first test was set for a 30 sec flight to get a lap time and do a loop, climb/dive and feel the ship. First up I tried the 9 1/8 x 7.5. This gave a very solid feel and strong climb/dive and loop at 4.5 sec lap time. I then go to change props and put the 9 1/2 x 7 on an as I am tightening the prop nut, boom the shaft sheers. I do not gorilla tighten things so it was a surprise when it popped. Back to the shop to find another adapter. Luckly, I had several 4mm spares so I was back in business.

Next day out to the field again all set with the 9 1/2x7. Switch on and as I am on the take-off roll I get a little downward pitching but took of fine. Flew the test and felt very strong, as good as the 9 1/8" so it seemed like a very good prop. Lap time was 4.57 sec. Then as it timed out and the break hit there was an odd noise and it landed. Going over to the ship I see the motor mount broken and half off the fuse. Ok any landing you can walk away from is good, so back to the shop. This was my own fault for being lazy after the crash of the first ship. The motor mount was cracked and instead of making a new one I put in some glue and pushed it together. Lesson learned. New mount built and installed and out to the field for test of the 10x7. This was a very good strong prop but the loops seemed a little bigger than with the 9 1/2. Lap time was 4.5.

Once I built the new motor mount and got it installed I noticed that the mount bolts seemed like they were not getting tight, looking at the connection the fuse was being squeezed. In an effort to save weight on the new fuse I didn't put any hardwood mounts in the area were the mount bolts through the fuse, just the 1/32" plywood sides and fiberglass. This was not good and I had a bad feeling that it would not be long before the bolts ripped out, so I decide to cut into the fuse and add the hard maple hard points where the bolts hold the mount. This worked out well and in a few hours I was able to epoxy in the hard points and some filler blocks, reshape and seal and be ready for flying today. Did a second test with the 9 1/2" x7 and it felt very good, loop was tighter than the 10" so this looks like the base prop. Next will be a full pattern.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2023, 11:56:51 AM by Dennis Toth »

Offline Alfred Spitzer

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Re: Electrified Ringmaster S-1
« Reply #82 on: July 04, 2022, 03:47:36 PM »
Great amount of information for a newbie. Thanks for sharing. Awaiting delivery of my Ringmaster S1.


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