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Author Topic: Electrics too fragile?  (Read 2330 times)

Offline Bill Mitchell

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Electrics too fragile?
« on: May 04, 2013, 07:37:28 AM »
I haven't flown now for about 10 years and electrics are drawing me back. It should open up available places to practice that would be a problem with glow.

I've read that electrics are somewhat fragile in a crash and relearning the pattern will probably mean some crashes. What is the reality, are electrics too fragile for learning?

Bill

Offline John Cralley

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Re: Electrics too fragile?
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2013, 08:59:25 AM »
Bill,  

I have been flying electric control line since 2006 and have had a number of crashes! One of my Electric Ringmasters has been crashed and rebuilt at least 13 times - I have lost track of just how many and several of the crashes were by others flying the plane. During that time I have had a battery damaged (which I discarded to be on the safe side), an ESC burned out (cheap Chinese one with no flames), a prop adapter collet broke and numerous props have been replaced. The plane (s) of course suffered serious damage which has in all cases been repaired. I will attach a couple of photos of the "Ugly" 13 crash Ringmaster. One is my doing (RIP) and the other is that of my daughter who let it get away from her.  ;D

One bit of advice: Fly over turf until you are really confident!!
« Last Edit: May 04, 2013, 09:34:19 AM by John Cralley »
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Electrics too fragile?
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2013, 09:07:03 AM »
When learning to fly, crashes are inevitable.   Was told once that if I didn't crash once in awhile I wasn't trying hard enough.  Even with IC engines damage can be done to them.   That is why I like flying over grass as it seems it is not so hard on equipment when I do goof up.

Another secret I was told was to not build a plane to survive a crash, only strong enough to fly.
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Offline phil c

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Re: Electrics too fragile?
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2013, 12:02:52 PM »
I haven't flown now for about 10 years and electrics are drawing me back. It should open up available places to practice that would be a problem with glow.

I've read that electrics are somewhat fragile in a crash and relearning the pattern will probably mean some crashes. What is the reality, are electrics too fragile for learning?

Bill


I think what you may be referring to is the liklihood and cost of mechanical damage. People kind of accept that crashing the plane is almost ineveitable, so it doesn't count.  But the high dollar items used to the the engine. Period.  Right now good engines are unbelievably cheap. Back in the day a $3 kit used a $20 engine.  Now we fly $300 engines in ARF planes that cost $100-200.  Inflation has been about 7X since then, so the plane would cost $1500 in the grand scheme of things.  But that $300 dollar motor will only be totaled in a straight in crash on pavement.  Fly over decent grass but keep it clean and it will never wear out.

Electric is a bit different.  An high performance system will cost in the $300 range.  Please don't rant at me that that is too much or you found something different cheaper.  With almost all the ESC's a crash that just stalls the motor(a noseover)  will result in a burnt out motor or battery or both.  A few specially designed controllers and timers will take care of that problem.  If the motor doesn't burn out harder crashes can easily bend a 3-4mm shaft.  Harder crashes can also damage the battery ireplaceably. 

The first electric I ever flew lasted about 6 flights.  On the last flight the battery ran out of poop in a maneuver and the plane pancaked in.  Before the pit crew got there the magic smoke had all gone out of the motor.  I think it was an $80 dollar motor at the time.

So the preception is that electric crashes can likely be much more expensive glow engine crashes.  I think that is right, unless you run the cheapest equipment you can find.  Even then, a few crashes will end up costing as much as a good glow motor.

BUT, if electric will let you fly where otherwise you can't, whose counting the $$$$.
phil Cartier

Offline Igor Burger

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Re: Electrics too fragile?
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2013, 01:01:04 PM »
Bill, try indoors (they fly also outdoors in dead calm air), if it crashes, it costs usually only prop, if somethig breaks, it is easy to repare in few minutes and if not, it does not cost too much anyway :- )))

« Last Edit: May 04, 2013, 03:24:13 PM by Igor Burger »

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Electrics too fragile?
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2013, 03:16:57 PM »
An high performance system will cost in the $300 range.  Please don't rant at me that that is too much or you found something different cheaper.

Sorry, but I think it's a valid point: in a crash, the cheap Chinese electric motors will last about the same as one that's hand-wound by gnomes in Germany, working in a solar powered factory built from 3rd-generation recycled gerry cans discarded by allied troops in WW-II.

So if you're going to crash anyway, buy the cheap stuff and spend $100 or less where you'd spend $300 on the good stuff, and then you and your pocketbook won't shed as many tears when you dork it.  Then, when you can fly without crashing, buy the classy stuff.

(Note #1: the purchase prices of a basic cheap Chinese electric setup is still worse than a glow motor, unless you're flying a 15 sized airplane).

(Note #2: use a KR timer -- I speak from zero experience, but by all accounts it'll keep your ESC, motor and battery in one piece better than anything else will).
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline John Hammonds

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Re: Electrics too fragile?
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2013, 03:41:28 PM »
Well, I guess if you look at the attached photo it will probably re enforce your worse fears. Complete brain fade in a wing over resulted in the model going in very hard indeed. The model is now flying again With the same motor, ESC and timer. The battery as is evident from the photo did not fair so well. But such is life and that one was probably about as bad as I have been responsible for. I've had numerous other crashes though during my learning curve and apart from that one only once lost another battery which was disposed of as a precautionary measure because it was Banana shaped when taken off the model and I have never lost an ESC, timer or motor due to crash damage.

Perhaps I've just been lucky.

TTFN
John.
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Offline Andrew Borgogna

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Re: Electrics too fragile?
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2013, 03:45:06 PM »
I agree with Tim's point of view.  Use inexpensive equipment until you are confident enough to use expensive equipment.  That opinion has nothing to do with the fact it is electric.  I would give the same advice for gas powered airplanes.  I too use the KR timer, I lost all the electric stuff on my first electric plane when it nosed over except the timer.  Since then I have been using the KR timer I have not lost any equipment do to prop strikes.  
Andy
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Offline Bill Mitchell

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Re: Electrics too fragile?
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2013, 07:34:39 PM »
Igor, my best estimation is you are flying less than 25 kph. I think I've flown indoor rubber faster than that. Amazing! It must be artifacts in the video but it looks like there is a smoke trail.

Offline Bill Mitchell

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Re: Electrics too fragile?
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2013, 07:45:39 PM »
So if you have a timer that guards against overload from the prop stopping that "might" save everything else. Sounds like that's not the place to skimp. Are there wiring diagrams that show how everything connects? How about the functions of the timer and ESC respectively. Sorry if this sounds basic but everyone talks like everyone else knows what they are taking about and much of it is Slavic to me ;)

Offline Crist Rigotti

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Re: Electrics too fragile?
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2013, 07:58:48 PM »
Wow, there is at least 1 post with some mis-information!  Unbelievable.
Crist
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Offline jim welch

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Re: Electrics too fragile?
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2013, 08:29:22 PM »
Wow, there is at least 1 post with some mis-information!  Unbelievable.
Ditto! n~
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Offline Bill Mitchell

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Re: Electrics too fragile?
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2013, 09:02:10 PM »
Wow, there is at least 1 post with some mis-information!  Unbelievable.

and 2 more with no information ???

Offline John Rist

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Re: Electrics too fragile?
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2013, 09:20:01 PM »
So if you have a timer that guards against overload from the prop stopping that "might" save everything else. Sounds like that's not the place to skimp. Are there wiring diagrams that show how everything connects? How about the functions of the timer and ESC respectively. Sorry if this sounds basic but everyone talks like everyone else knows what they are taking about and much of it is Slavic to me ;)
RSM sells ready to go packages that has the KR timer that protects the motor, ESC, and battery.
http://www.rsmdistribution.com/index-2.htm
The RSM25SYS package is equivlent to a hot .25 glow power. At $185 it gives you everything you need except a charger and extra batteries.  This package will work well in Brodak's ARF Super Clown $88.  (plus shipping). So if you shop a little total cost should be $400 or so to get started.  I suspect the RSM package is plug and play so it should be a good starting point. Quote from RSM: "Complete systems from RSM Distribution are flight tested. They come with all connectors installed. Flight parameters are fully programmed. Just mount, flip the switch and fly.  No set up or computer is required to operate". If you crash the motor package should be OK.  The expensive stuff such as you battery charger should last for years.  With care of your batteries they are cheaper than fuel and glow plugs.  If the Clown is a total loss you are looking at $88 max.  If you have building skills most repairs are possible.  Electric is clean, quite, and reliable.  Admittedly it takes some getting used to if you are a glow person.  But trust me to get good glow runs takes some doing also.  I am flying more and more electric and I love it. PS you do need a tac to set RPM with the KR timer.  However it will come pre set at a good working level. As time goes on you can change settings to match your flying style.  All the instructions are quite good.
John Rist
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Electrics too fragile?
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2013, 10:49:43 PM »
So if you have a timer that guards against overload from the prop stopping that "might" save everything else. Sounds like that's not the place to skimp.

Ironically, that's the Kieth Renicle timer, which he specifically designed for use with cheap ESC's!

Are there wiring diagrams that show how everything connects?

Yes, numerous ones.  Especially if you keep in mind that the function of the timer is to pretend to be a receiver -- if you find a wiring diagram of an RC system and mentally throw away any servos and replace the receiver with the timer -- you're there.

Try searching on "wiring diagram" here.  I know I've seen good posts.

How about the functions of the timer and ESC respectively. Sorry if this sounds basic but everyone talks like everyone else knows what they are taking about and much of it is Slavic to me ;)

We were all born knowing this stuff, Bill.  Really.  Honest.

(Lest you believe too hard if I give you misinformation, be warned that I fly electric RC, and for my day job I have designed motor control circuit boards -- but I'm too cheap to fly electric CL.  So I have no personal experience with timers, but a reasonable amount with ESCs and motors -- and I'm qualified to design you your very own ESC if you have a year's wages lying around collecting dust)

In brief:

"ESC" stands for "electronic speed control".  The ones we use are universally designed for radio control electric planes.  The ESC connects to three things: the motor, the timer (which it thinks is a receiver) and the battery.  It contains a circuit that powers the timer, and all the magic to make a brushless motor work.

The timer, as mentioned, is pretending to be a receiver.  It connects to the ESC, and it has at least a "start" button (different timers have different arrangements -- all the ones I know of have a start button, or a connection for you to attach a remote start button).  When it powers up it sends a "low throttle" signal to the ESC.  When you push the start button the timer ramps up the throttle command to the ESC, holds the motor at high speed for a preset time (which you can set -- different timers have different was to set this), then ramps the speed down again.

This is where it gets confusing.  Different timers do the speed command stuff differently: Will Hubin makes several different timers, all of which work "open loop", in that they just issue commands on a timed schedule.  Keith Renicle makes a timer that monitors the signal to the motor, figures out its speed, and adjusts the command to the ESC -- this is a closed-loop governor.  Igor Burger makes some pretty high-zoot systems that I'm not too familiar with (I thought I was, but the last time I said something about them I was wrong -- ask Igor).

There's a bunch of complication with the Hubin timers and ESC governing modes.  The short story is that there are high-zoot ESCs that include governors (similar in theory, but theoretically better than the one that Keith Renicle implements).  Some of the Hubin timers (and Igor's -- I think.  Ask Igor.) are designed to work with a regulating ESC -- you can tell the timer what throttle command to send, and it just holds the command steady.  The ESC then governs the speed. 

What I've just written is my own digest of information derived from flying electric RC and (especially for the timer stuff) reading posts here.  There's lots of information in here if you're willing to read all the posts, and then you'll be getting the timer stuff first hand.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Igor Burger

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Re: Electrics too fragile?
« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2013, 12:53:07 AM »
Igor, my best estimation is you are flying less than 25 kph. I think I've flown indoor rubber faster than that. Amazing! It must be artifacts in the video but it looks like there is a smoke trail.
:- )))) ... no it did not smoke ... those model are designed to fly at the same angular speed as we fly F2B models, so lap times are somewhere between 5.5 and 5s per lap. And there are many pilots who learned flying just with that.

Paul Winter did nice video about them :- ))



And regarding timers: ... yes Tim is right, my simple timers use ESC with governor which keeps constant RPM, I think the same do Will's timers, so what happens after crash is only function of ESC, they have usually some kind of overload protection, while Keith's timer has sensor measuring RPM for internal RPM regulation (so that ESC does not need built in governor) and when somethings goes wrong, it simply stops motor because of load, not because of overload, so it has better chance to save components from electrical damage.

Offline Douglas Ames

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Re: Electrics too fragile?
« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2013, 05:30:34 AM »
Wow, there is at least 1 post with some mis-information!  Unbelievable.

Yeah...I thought Gnomes were English?
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Offline Russell Shaffer

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Re: Electrics too fragile?
« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2013, 08:27:06 AM »
Is there a reason for not fusing the motor?  If the motor stalls, the fuse should blow I think. 
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Offline Bill Little

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Re: Electrics too fragile?
« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2013, 12:16:40 PM »
Hi Bill,

Do you still live in the Raleigh area?  Aaron picked up a complete NIB example of the Super Clown Electric package for about the cost of the ARF Super Clown alone.  Things like that do happen to get you started, just be patient if you are serious about flying electric CLPA.  I probably will never completely switch over but I feel Aaron will when his life settles back down and he gets a little bit serious.

Give me a call sometime, OK?
Bill
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Electrics too fragile?
« Reply #19 on: May 05, 2013, 12:17:32 PM »
I am not sure where all this "data" comes from about prop strikes burning out ESC and Motors,, I fly RC and CL electric,, I have NEVER lost equipment due to prop strikes,, and yes I have had them.. I believe,, ( since I have not had the problem I cannot verify or deny) I believe that the problem comes from the settings in the ESC. If you set the overload protection to a setting that is to insensetive, it could overamp the esc ,,
again,, I realize there are peopel that love the KR timers,, more power to you, however, protecting your ESC can be done with other methods,,
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Offline Bill Mitchell

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Re: Electrics too fragile?
« Reply #20 on: May 05, 2013, 02:18:48 PM »
Hi B1,

Still in southern Wake County and probably not moving anytime soon. I'll call. Hope you had a good time in Huntersville.

B2

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Electrics too fragile?
« Reply #21 on: May 05, 2013, 02:33:18 PM »
I am not sure where all this "data" comes from about prop strikes burning out ESC and Motors,, I fly RC and CL electric,, I have NEVER lost equipment due to prop strikes,, and yes I have had them.. I believe,, ( since I have not had the problem I cannot verify or deny) I believe that the problem comes from the settings in the ESC. If you set the overload protection to a setting that is to insensetive, it could overamp the esc ,,
again,, I realize there are peopel that love the KR timers,, more power to you, however, protecting your ESC can be done with other methods,,

Any data that I have comes from reading stuff on this group.  I fly electric RC and I've had a few prop strikes with no problem -- but with RC I have the tendency to flip that ol' throttle lever DOWN as soon as the plane hits the ground.

You could be correct that it's a matter of not setting the ESC up correctly -- but if the KR timer makes for a system that's robust to not being set up correctly, then isn't that a good thing?
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Offline NED-088

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Re: Electrics too fragile?
« Reply #22 on: May 05, 2013, 07:30:41 PM »
Is there a reason for not fusing the motor?  If the motor stalls, the fuse should blow I think. 
Yes, by the time a fuse has finally broken the circuit, your ESC will have gone up in smoke about 500 times..... n~
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But I DO play Stunt and I DO fly Bluegrass.


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