Author Topic: Electric Velvet (Read 10399 times)

Jeff Traxler · « **on:** November 22, 2015, 02:30:06 PM »

My electric Velvet.If the pics. post I'll do more typin'

Jeff Traxler · « **Reply #1 on:** November 22, 2015, 02:36:58 PM »

More shots.The cooling inlet has a divider with one side going to cool the ESC and the other directly into the battery compartment.The motor gets air around the nosering.

Jeff Traxler · « **Reply #2 on:** November 22, 2015, 02:43:44 PM »

She still needs a little detailing before the final leveling,panel lines and clear.

Jeff Traxler · « **Reply #3 on:** November 22, 2015, 02:48:43 PM »

As she sits in the pictures the weight is 26.53 oz.Hoping to finish out at 57.

Shug Emery · « **Reply #4 on:** November 22, 2015, 03:48:09 PM »

Man....that is a good looking ship for sure.
Yeah!
Shug

Dennis Adamisin · « **Reply #5 on:** November 22, 2015, 03:58:02 PM »

WOW that looks REALLY good, absolutely love the fuselage striping and the big graphics. The weight is unbelievable too. I think our mutual flying buddy is going to be a LOT proud and maybe a little jealous. WAY TO GO Trax!

Jeff Traxler · « **Reply #6 on:** November 22, 2015, 04:49:49 PM »

Thanx Shug,This is my very first PAMPA ship.No more bARFs or hand me downs!Last summer I got tired of getting a goose egg in the appearance point box on the scorecard.

Dennis,Thanx,I'm working on no.2 now.I am getting an Igor system for that one and I think I can squeeze an oz.or two more out.The laminated molded fuse is what saved most of the weight.I sheeted the whole wing so I could'nt stick my fingers through the silkspan.With the laminations being biased the fuse behind the flapline is very resistant to twisting even a little bit when torqued.

Wesley Dick · « **Reply #7 on:** November 22, 2015, 09:17:32 PM »

Jeff, you have done a great job with the Velvet. If it flies as good as it looks you are going to make an impression. It looks like you will have the first velvet not built by the designer.
Thanks and keep up the great work.
Wes

Shug Emery · « **Reply #8 on:** November 22, 2015, 09:31:17 PM »

Quote from: Jeff Traxler on November 22, 2015, 04:49:49 PM

Thanx Shug,This is my very first PAMPA ship.No more bARFs or hand me downs!Last summer I got tired of getting a goose egg in the appearance point box on the scorecard.

Dennis,Thanx,I'm working on no.2 now.I am getting an Igor system for that one and I think I can squeeze an oz.or two more out.The laminated molded fuse is what saved most of the weight.I sheeted the whole wing so I could'nt stick my fingers through the silkspan.With the laminations being biased the fuse behind the flapline is very resistant to twisting even a little bit when torqued.

Can you comment on the The laminated molded fuse a bit more. Not sure I know what that is exactly.
I look forward to building a proper stunt ship someday too.
Shug

Jeff Traxler · « **Reply #9 on:** November 23, 2015, 07:19:43 AM »

Shug,I will try to get some more pics of the forms I used.Some make a single layer shell with the grain running in the direction of the thrustline.I wrap 1 layer like a candy cane from top to bottom(looking at the side of the fuse) and put the other layer on from bottom to the top.It all happens in one hectic glue-up.I have been using the ace bandage wrap to form the wood to the mold.further examples will be vacuum bagged as well. The result is a very light,rigid shell.No bulkheads,just a laminated 1/8" thick former in 4 locations is all it needs.I make a keel like a stick and tissue model and put the formers on and drop on the side.When the second side/formers are applied it ties it all together.With the sides being slightly round and the layers opposing each other it makes the rear of the fuse so stiff it is hard to twist even a little bit.I'd like to put a pipewrench on a conventionally built fuse and then on this type of construction and measure the stab deflection at failure.

Bob Hudak · « **Reply #10 on:** November 23, 2015, 11:06:58 AM »

Can't wait to see this one up close. So far looks like you got a nice thing going. I would keep the pipewrench away from the Velvet.Way to go Jeff!!

Shug Emery · « **Reply #11 on:** November 23, 2015, 03:45:57 PM »

Quote from: Jeff Traxler on November 23, 2015, 07:19:43 AM

Shug,I will try to get some more pics of the forms I used.Some make a single layer shell with the grain running in the direction of the thrustline.I wrap 1 layer like a candy cane from top to bottom(looking at the side of the fuse) and put the other layer on from bottom to the top.It all happens in one hectic glue-up.I have been using the ace bandage wrap to form the wood to the mold.further examples will be vacuum bagged as well. The result is a very light,rigid shell.No bulkheads,just a laminated 1/8" thick former in 4 locations is all it needs.I make a keel like a stick and tissue model and put the formers on and drop on the side.When the second side/formers are applied it ties it all together.With the sides being slightly round and the layers opposing each other it makes the rear of the fuse so stiff it is hard to twist even a little bit.I'd like to put a pipewrench on a conventionally built fuse and then on this type of construction and measure the stab deflection at failure.

Thankee....I'll have to study up on this technique some more for the future.
Shug

Jeff Traxler · « **Reply #12 on:** November 23, 2015, 04:29:02 PM »

Quote from: Bob Hudak on November 23, 2015, 11:06:58 AM

Can't wait to see this one up close. So far looks like you got a nice thing going. I would keep the pipewrench away from the Velvet.Way to go Jeff!!

Hey Bob,This is what I done with the shell I brought out to your place.Can' wait to fly it!!

John Paris · « **Reply #13 on:** November 23, 2015, 07:11:09 PM »

Jeff,
Looking good. Will miss der Nobler though.
John

Howard Rush · « **Reply #14 on:** November 24, 2015, 12:21:01 PM »

Cool, Jeff. Looks like you'll have the fancy flaps, too.

Jerry Haupt · « **Reply #15 on:** November 24, 2015, 01:49:32 PM »

Jeff, Great looking airplane, awesome job. Bring it to Dayton this summer I'm looking forward to seeing it in person.

Jeff Traxler · « **Reply #16 on:** November 25, 2015, 07:44:22 AM »

The first picture shows the forms I molded the shells around.The former locations are the slots in the forms.I slip the laminated 1/8" balsa in the slots and trim leaving a perfect fit to the shells.The other two shots show the cavernous battery compartment.The ESC will fit nicely under the battery shelf and I installed a place to mount the safety and the start button accessable thru the cooling outlets under the fuse.It kills me to see a big red button on the side of a beautiful ship so I placed it out of sight but not out of reach.

Hey John,Der Nobler will live on in Der Shark.............Achtung Baby!

Will Hinton · « **Reply #17 on:** December 19, 2015, 08:46:53 AM »

Spent some time in Jeff's shop a couple of days ago and he is going to end up being one who develops an extension of newer building techniques for those light and straight fuses we all want.
He's spending a lot of time with the experemints and with building mold bucks that look like museum pieces. My buddy is a master craftsman when he wants to be, and that isn't always directed at great guitars!

Jeff Traxler · « **Reply #18 on:** February 19, 2016, 06:38:59 PM »

Mr. weatherman finally cooperated and I got the clear on and decided to put her together.Nice shiny airplane and used landing gear.......

HB~>I fixed that.Made a mold from a glued up block of Corian.This is the first set.I'll post a few pics of the finished plane as soon as I finish bolting everything on.

Jeff Traxler · « **Reply #19 on:** February 19, 2016, 06:40:29 PM »

2 more shots of the gear/mold

Bob Hudak · « **Reply #20 on:** February 19, 2016, 07:39:30 PM »

Quality looking gear. Look like Sukhoi style. Mr. Weather is gonna let Velvet fly mid March if you can have her ready by then.. Time to burn some midnite oil!
Bob

Jeff Traxler · « **Reply #21 on:** February 19, 2016, 08:50:37 PM »

Quote from: Bob Hudak on February 19, 2016, 07:39:30 PM

Quality looking gear. Look like Sukhoi style. Mr. Weather is gonna let Velvet fly mid March if you can have her ready by then.. Time to burn some midnite oil!
Bob

Sunday.Couple hrs work tomorrow,test run,and I'll be ready

Dennis Adamisin · « **Reply #22 on:** February 20, 2016, 05:48:51 AM »

Great job on the new LG. That is a nice finishing touch on a otherwise great project. Somehow I do not thin you are going to miss the old Nobler at all...

eric rule · « **Reply #23 on:** February 20, 2016, 09:34:47 AM »

Jeff;

All I can say is WOW!!!!

A biased laminated fuselage should stop any unwanted twisting of the fuselage rear (if I can assume that I understand exactly what you are doing). I know that I speak for many others when I say that I would love to see a more detailed explanation for the technique you use. I know that when I experimented with simple laminated turtle decks everything stiffened up. Never thought to extend the idea to the fuselage itself.

This type of new way of thinking about construction is what keeps this hobby of ours so darned interesting. I applaud your inventiveness and thank you for sharing it with us. Keep the new ideas coming!!!

Eric Rule

Jeff Traxler · « **Reply #24 on:** February 20, 2016, 10:59:58 AM »

Hi Eric,Thanx for the kind words!!I am looking forward to sharing this process and I have recently spent a week at Bob Hunt's house.We took gobs of pictures detailing every step of the process for an upcoming article in Stunt News.We built an entire fuse in 4 days and the weight with motor mount was 4.4 oz.Figure a couple more oz. after adding the battery hold down/hatch hardware and mounts for the fuse mount gear.I have been experimenting for a couple years and the successes have come together for a system that makes a straight,light,very strong fuselage.With the bias lamination of the shells it simply will not twist when assembled.Kinda makes you do this

when the innovator himself,Bob Hunt says "I'm impressed,Jeff ya done real good!".My Velvet will weight at least 10 oz. less than Wesley's prototype with the battery installed ready to fly.

Jeff Traxler · « **Reply #25 on:** February 21, 2016, 10:30:36 AM »

Starting to look like a flying machine!Taking my time on the final assembly,my arthritis is letting me know I still have it

.The wind is a bit more than forecast anyway,It'll warm up soon enough.

Bob Hunt · « **Reply #26 on:** February 23, 2016, 05:06:46 PM »

Jeff and Bill Werwage spent a week at the Hunt household a few weeks back and we built models and played guitar until the wee hours each day. As Jeff indicated, he built one of his amazing fuselages here while I took sequential photos for a future Stunt News how-to on Jeff's techniques. It will be a hit I predict!

Attached is a photo of Jeff with the finished fuselage that he built here. It is very light and very stiff!

Later - Bob Hunt

Target · « **Reply #27 on:** February 23, 2016, 10:12:02 PM »

What type of glue is used in the laminations of wood on the fuse?

Mark Scarborough · « **Reply #28 on:** February 23, 2016, 10:26:46 PM »

I applaud your venturing out with your construction on the fuse, its awesome!
I cant wait to hear how she flies for you

Jeff Traxler · « **Reply #29 on:** February 24, 2016, 07:15:49 AM »

Quote from: Chris Behm on February 23, 2016, 10:12:02 PM

What type of glue is used in the laminations of wood on the fuse?

Hi Chris,I have experimented with Titebond,epoxy,and Gorilla glue.The titebond is water based and made the wood move waaaay too much.Great adhesive but not for this.The epoxy works OK but you have to be very sparing to keep the weight down.Gorilla glue was the last choice but it worked out better than anything I had tried previously.It was lighter,filled any gaps/cracks in the laminations and sands like balsa.I learned of G-glue in modelling at a how-to demo by R/C Scale guru Mike Barbee at the Nats a couple years ago and that was the final piece of the glue puzzle.When we built the demo fuse at Bob's we did one half with G-glue and one with epoxy for weight comparison.The epoxied shell came out about 5 gr. heavier.

Jeff Traxler · « **Reply #30 on:** February 24, 2016, 07:48:25 AM »

Quote from: Mark Scarborough on February 23, 2016, 10:26:46 PM

I applaud your venturing out with your construction on the fuse, its awesome!
I cant wait to hear how she flies for you

Thanx Mark,I try to think outside of the box.........really crowded in there!I wanted a way to make the fuse so it didn't look like a box with rounded blocks on the top and bottom.Without alot of weight as well,especially for electric ships.Wes's flaps cought my eye the first time a saw his Velvet and the fuse lines were perfect for my technique so here it is.The bonus is with the sides being a compound curve and the bias laminations is that this does not twist....at alll.Sure you can add weight and make a conventionally built fuse stiffer but in the end they will still twist if only a little bit.If I havn't learned anything climbing the stunt ladder,rigidity and light weight are our friends.She's ready to test fly if the weatherman get's their act together......I'll keep ya posted.

Target · « **Reply #31 on:** February 24, 2016, 07:51:31 AM »

Thanks for the detailed answer Jeff.
Yes, the PU glues certainly have their applications.
And I assume the wood has to be wet for molding, so that's a natural for the PU....
Thanks again.
R,
Chris

Motorman · « **Reply #32 on:** February 25, 2016, 09:12:41 PM »

Quote from: Bob Hunt on February 23, 2016, 05:06:46 PM

As Jeff indicated, he built one of his amazing fuselages here while I took sequential photos for a future Stunt News how-to on Jeff's techniques. It will be a hit I predict!
Later - Bob Hunt

So make up 2 large sheets of (1/32?) balsa, cut out blanks so the grain is skewed (30 degrees?) and forms a kind of plywood, wet it down, gorilla glue them and wrap them around the foam mold with an ace bandage then repeat for the other half. Then glue the two halfs to a (3/16?) board which is hollowed out where needed. Is that about right?

But why do you have that board going down the middle, why not just glue the two shells together without it?

MM

Target · « **Reply #33 on:** February 25, 2016, 10:43:12 PM »

I'm wondering about a full composite fuselage, made from fabric and epoxy....
Should be much easier to produce than a sailplane fuselage with their uber skinny and long shapes.
But I guess if the wood works, why mess with success??
I'd think though that someone with some nuts must have already, or would be willing to take their finished creation and splash a mold off of it.

I can't wait to see more of this method though.

Vr,
Chris

Motorman · « **Reply #34 on:** February 26, 2016, 07:15:36 AM »

I'm thinking top and bottom halves. The center board would form a natural crutch and you wouldn't have to cut the fuselage up to mount the wing & tail.

MM

Jeff Traxler · « **Reply #35 on:** February 26, 2016, 08:58:27 AM »

MM,I used the keel method w/left/right halves instead of top/bottom for 2 reasons.With the keel verticle it has reference like a profile.Alignment is easier for me that way.It is also easier to hide a seam on the top/bottom instead of having it run down the side in plain sight.

Chris,I have plugs and am in the process of making female molds for the composite version of the Werwage/Rud Junar XL.2 piece take apart fuse/wings/empanage.When that project is a bit further along I will share more.It will feature the bias lam shells as well as glass/CF/Epoxy.I have severe arthritis and vacuum bagged composite is the way to go for me.I have a habit of crushing balsa when I work with it.

Target · « **Reply #36 on:** February 26, 2016, 09:02:23 AM »

I look forward to seeing what you bring forward, Jeff!
I myself have thoughts of V-bagged wings and tails, I just have to decide what I want to do about hinges.

Vr,
Chris

Jeff Traxler · « **Reply #37 on:** March 01, 2016, 07:03:43 AM »

She's been sitting for a couple weeks bench trimmed and ready to test fly........The NW Ohio wind machine is in fine working order and continues to blow.The good news is with the tip weight,arming device,battery,and all the extras it finished out at 58 oz. RTF.A couple more oz. than I hoped but still 8 oz. less than the PA65 powered prototype.This may take a bit of getting used to,the hand me down Impact was 72oz.,the ARF Strega was 79oz.

Target · « **Reply #38 on:** March 01, 2016, 05:59:39 PM »

Best of luck for boring maiden Jeff!
Please don't risk the maiden in gusty conditions, wait it out!!!
VR,
Chris

Jeff Traxler · « **Reply #39 on:** March 12, 2016, 07:50:45 PM »

My patience has finally paid off!!The conditions were perfect this afternoon and I got to fly my new ship.Since this is my first BOM full tilt stunter great care was taken during the building,finishing and bench trimming process to keep it strait and light.It had no issues and flew great right from the first take off.I flew a 1:30 flight and could tell right away I had a winner.I adjusted the run time and flew 4 patterns.The only trim so far was to move the leadouts forward an 1/8"and that helped upstairs.The best thing was my landing gear design did exactly what I hoped it would and really cut down the bounce on take off and landing.A fuse mount LG that lands like wing mounted gear.So far,so good!

Dennis Adamisin · « **Reply #40 on:** March 12, 2016, 08:14:41 PM »

Now THAT is a terrific flight test report. Way to go Trax.

Target · « **Reply #41 on:** March 12, 2016, 09:12:59 PM »

Congrats Jeff!
Can I ask what your landing gear layup is? I'm interested in making my own cf gear to replace my aluminum gear on my oriental.
R,
Chris

Jeff Traxler · « **Reply #42 on:** March 12, 2016, 10:20:04 PM »

Chris,I put a layer of 6 oz. cloth in the mold,then a bunch of 12K tow,cloth,tow,and a last layer of cloth on the outside.It's mostly tow.I like the look of the weave and the stability of the perpendicular fibers in the cloth.I'll be making another mold for a set for 40 size ships this week with the same shape as these.They have a certain shock absorbing quality,can't wait to get them on a paved circle

Target · « **Reply #43 on:** March 12, 2016, 10:45:46 PM »

Thanks Jeff.
I have a spool of tow, a bunch of 3k plain weave cf, and a bunch of 80/20 "uni-carbon"
I'll have to play around a bit.
I wonder how much lighter I can make a cf gear than aluminum?
I'm thinking maybe slightly over half the weight would be safe.
I'm really glad your maiden went smoothly.
R,
Chris

Crist Rigotti · « **Reply #44 on:** March 13, 2016, 06:53:12 AM »

Nice report, Trax.

Jeff Traxler · « **Reply #45 on:** March 13, 2016, 10:20:28 AM »

Hey Christ,The arming plug you gave me in Cleveland last fall has been put to very good use!Thanx again

If I could get the rain to stop I'll use it some more!

Jeff Traxler · « **Reply #46 on:** March 13, 2016, 10:41:50 AM »

Quote from: Chris Behm on March 12, 2016, 10:45:46 PM

Thanks Jeff.
I have a spool of tow, a bunch of 3k plain weave cf, and a bunch of 80/20 "uni-carbon"
I'll have to play around a bit.
I wonder how much lighter I can make a cf gear than aluminum?
I'm thinking maybe slightly over half the weight would be safe.
I'm really glad your maiden went smoothly.
R,
Chris

This mold is about .100" deep for these and seams just about right.With the first mold I made I ended making a few non-airworthy sets of gear before I got it.Experimenting is fun and I learned a ton.You will be happy with the weight savings over aluminum.A few grams here and there adds up quick.I have been drubbing lighter,lighter,lighter into my head and it really paid off on this project.The bias laminated fuse shells contributed greatly in the weight savings.

Target · « **Reply #47 on:** March 13, 2016, 10:52:04 AM »

I'm thinking of splashing a fiberglass mold off of my aluminum gear.
The .100" thickness is great info, thank you.
R
Chris

Jeff Traxler · « **Reply #48 on:** June 03, 2016, 10:03:30 AM »

I have 65 flights on it now and it seams to keep getting better.The landing gear works FAR BETTER than I had ever hoped.It really absorbs the landing loads and cuts way down on the bounce associated with fuse mount gear.The FREE points from not bouncing on landing I will gladly accept!!I will have these available for sale SOON as well as my CF bellcranks and CF props.I am using about 2080 mah from a 5s 2700 pack,KR-2 timer,3548-800kv motor w/11x5 3 blade CF prop.Now I can practice hard for the Nats and work on my E Junar XL.

Crist Rigotti · « **Reply #49 on:** June 04, 2016, 08:12:03 AM »

Looks like it is all working out for you. I'm glad for you.