News:



  • June 13, 2025, 03:33:59 AM

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: Electric Newb Question  (Read 7785 times)

Offline Chuck_Smith

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 696
Electric Newb Question
« on: November 15, 2024, 12:24:13 PM »
Hi guys,

Going to try to switch up to electric. My ships are usually 685 square inches and fly very well on a small case  ST .61 running a classic uniflow 4-2-4 and I use a pretty small venturi. They are probably a little overpowered but like they say, "there's no replacement for displacement".

Someone gave me a Cobra C3515-18 KV=740. Being an engineering nerd I'm looking over specs and recommended props. I'm comparing to a 12-5 or 12-6 which is where my nitro engines usually end up.

With the kv of 740 I'm guessing a 5 cell and a 2700mAh pack.

My hesitation is that the prop chart puts 12-6 on the edge of the no fly zone, but I have no real heuristics to work with. The motor is rated 660 Watts max continuous power. My instincts want me to think that running on a governor the motor will be just loping along in level flight and doing power bursts during maneuvers.

Any sage advice or recommendations? Go with a more powerful motor or does stunt history say stay with the current motor? As with all things Stunt, I look for weight reduction when possible so I don't want to put a boat anchor in the nose. I'm over 55 years of glow but a real newb to scratch built electric.

Thanks much in advance,

Chuck
AMA 76478

Offline Ken Culbertson

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 7031
Re: Electric Newb Question
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2024, 03:47:14 PM »
Chuck - I run that same motor in BadAss and I have had one of the same Cobras as yours.  Very little difference.  You have the right motor to parallel a 60-75 IC.  My planes are in the 690-710 sq" from 65-72oz.  I use 2800 5s and 6s batteries.  Props vary.  My "go to" is the MAS 11-6 three blade because I don't have $75 to spend every time I nick a blade trying one of those 40 point takeoffs.
I have successfully used 11-6 and 12-5 two blades.  How well it runs will depend on your timer.  I would recommend getting something simple at first to get used to the drill.  Active timers can be a real head scratcher, but they are pretty much a necessity to become competitive. 

Ken

Note on the Prop Charts - they are for RC and not very useful for our purposes.   Watch your ESC and motor heat closely if you run a 12-6 on a 5s battery.  I would use a 6s.
AMA 15382
If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC

Offline John Rist

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 3042
Re: Electric Newb Question
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2024, 04:37:23 PM »
I would recommend the KR timer.  They are in stock at Brodak. They are easy to setup and provide RPM control and they work with most any speed controller. The other choice is the Clime and dive timer.  It also provides RPM control and boost.  The down side is it requires good soldering skills to assemble.  It programs with an app on you cell phone.

One thing I would like to mention is that if you are getting into electric good soldering skills are needed.  I have had good luck with the ZD 929C soldering station.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/124324779459?chn=ps&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&amdata=enc%3A1eUWHYjYITbaXcftWC_5QAg4&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&mkscid=101&itemid=124324779459&targetid=2319404999269&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9012692&poi=&campaignid=21222256297&mkgroupid=167054596991&rlsatarget=aud-1297930287338:pla-2319404999269&abcId=9408285&merchantid=118854833&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQiA_9u5BhCUARIsABbMSPu6rWQ4-FSXM7_-ka9IxeSSuvAE0PpNba1mOrZ_Agej8pQnEI9PhwYaArPUEALw_wcB

Good luck.  As with any new venture there will be a learning curve.  Do you have any electric experience.  Do you have a battery chareger etc.
John Rist
AMA 56277

Offline Chuck_Smith

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 696
Re: Electric Newb Question
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2024, 05:48:10 AM »
Thanks guys, good info and helpful.

I have chargers and I used to solder boards and build prototype electrical devices many years ago as a part-time job during college.

Thanks for the advice on the prop charts too. I looked at them with a tad bit of scrutiny anyway because they appear to be measuring static thrust conditions and of course, for a fixed-pitch the thrust, HP required falls off with forward velocity such that the charts are not real-world application. I intend to measure the current and thanks for the advice on going 6S.

Retired this year, hoping to make it to a few contests and the NATS next year, meet some old friends and make some new ones. Wife has been dealing with cancer this year so took a package at work to be able to stay home and care for her. Good news is that she appears to be cancer free at this stage (!) and being retired is allowing me to get some serious building in. My gosh, this hobby becomes easier when you retire.


Thanks again and hope to meet you all in person soon,

Chuck


 
AMA 76478

Offline Ken Culbertson

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 7031
Re: Electric Newb Question
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2024, 08:07:06 AM »

I have chargers and I used to solder boards and build prototype electrical devices many years ago as a part-time job during college. 

Based on that I think the Climb and Dive may be a really good choice.  One of our local fliers is using one and it appears to be a solid timer that combines entry level with advanced capability that is growing.  Not requiring a detached accelerator sensor pad and not requiring you to unhook anything to program it is priceless.

Another word on props.  Prop weight is very important.  The difference in the lag time for the boost from the timer can be dramatic between props.  If I were headed to the NATS I would be using a light weight CF three blade and hoping that I didn't hit anything taking off.  Next in line would be large box of light weight wood two blade props like the black BadAss props knowing that I was going to have to replace them often.  The acceleration in boost and the locking out of corners from the smaller lag time of these props is something you will want.  So why do I use the MAS 3 blade?  It is as good as you can get when you can't afford the $75 CF.  For some unknown twist of fate, I am very adaptive and can switch from one to the other with very little practice so I go cheap for now but will definitely switch to the top of the line equipment when it becomes NATS time.  You can sand the tips on the MAS from a minor ground strike on takeoff.  With the CF or BadAss you throw it out and hope that it doesn't vibrate too much if it didn't trigger a shutoff.  The cheap APC are great for trainers.

You probably know all of this already.  I am just passing on lessons I learned the hard way when I made the switch.

Ken
AMA 15382
If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC

Offline Howard Rush

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 7964
Re: Electric Newb Question
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2024, 03:51:48 PM »
I don't have experience with a big variety of systems, but I am quite opinionated, so I'll opine anyhow. 

I fly 68-74 oz stunt planes, same airframe as with acoustic powerplants, but built lighter, especially the forward fuselage.  Well, not quite the same. CG is 1" farther forward, leadouts come out farther back (leave room), nose is about 1.5" longer to balance.  Why the different CG and leadout positions is among the Mysteries of Stunt.

Cobra should be dandy.  My Cobras didn't last too long rear-mounted.  People who front mount them say they last a long time. Last year's fashionable motor was the Bad Ass 3515.  This year's is the Bad Ass 3520. 

The current fashion in batteries is homemade packs of 18650 Li-Ion cells.  Jim Aron organized a big battery-making seminar to be held at my house.  I haven't made any yet.   Although I have been taking hundreds of 18650s with me to contests, I've just been leaving them in the car and using my trusty Thunder Power LiPos.  Thunder Power usually has a half-price sale about Thanksgiving. Get you some 25C Prolitex 2800mA-hr batteries.  Thunder Power will add connectors for $5 per battery or so.  Deans connectors have reliability issues and have fallen from favor.  Yellow ones are probably better.  My homies are switching to IC3s.  They seem to be good, and Horizon Hobbies sells them cheap in bags of 25. 

Other stuff depends on whether you operate the motor at constant speed or use an active timer.  Constant speed simplifies things.  You don't care about ESC dynamic response to inputs, so you can use any old ESC.  Popular ones are the domestically sourced Jeti Spin 66 Pro and Castle 75.  You can use the massive, but efficient APC props (I'll give you some from the PTG estate) and get away with 5S batteries.  You can use most any timer.  The dirt-cheap Hubin works great. The KR timer has the virtue of having a motor sensor that shuts power off when the prop hits the ground, but I'm sure you're past the point of needing that feature. 

If you want an active timer, there's this guy in Bratislava who is about the only credible source for timers, ESCs, and props.  He seems to be a controls guy, among other things.  The timers he's been making for several years work, and have many world champs and US Nats wins.  He is working on a new timer design that will be even better.   He has had the Jeti people make him a run of the old Spin 66 (not the Pro) ESCs, which have good dynamic response and a brake.  He also sells 16-gram hollow carbon 3-blade props, which, as Ken says, have better dynamic response than heavier ones.  Get either the 12" narrow-blade or the 11."  Use 6s batteries.

There are some alternatives to the Igor stuff: The Climb and Dive may be open-source, such that you can program your own control laws, which you would probably enjoy doing, and which could give you an advantage.  Mark Gerber measured the moment of inertia of Bad Ass (or maybe Xoar) wood props and found it to be even less than Igor's.  No doubt there are quick-responding drone ESCs out there, but we haven't found them.  I'll look when I run out of other things to do. 

I have found retirement to feel very natural.

The Jive Combat Team
Making combat and stunt great again

Offline Chuck_Smith

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 696
Re: Electric Newb Question
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2024, 08:59:34 AM »
Thanks Howard, good stuff.  Wonder if the CG being forward has something to do with the fact that one doesn't burn off 6 oz of fuel during the pattern? Up here we fly off of grass (or frozen grass with ice clumps in the snow) so prop strikes are not unheard of.
AMA 76478

Offline Howard Rush

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 7964
Re: Electric Newb Question
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2024, 09:13:14 AM »
As I recall, fuel only accounted for about a third of CG change. You might check that calculation.

We have rain here. No lumps to hit with props, and you don’t have to shovel it.
The Jive Combat Team
Making combat and stunt great again

Offline Ken Culbertson

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 7031
Re: Electric Newb Question
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2024, 11:01:32 AM »
Thanks Howard, good stuff.  Wonder if the CG being forward has something to do with the fact that one doesn't burn off 6 oz of fuel during the pattern? Up here we fly off of grass (or frozen grass with ice clumps in the snow) so prop strikes are not unheard of.
I have often wondered if the CG's marked on plans designed for IC are always without fuel.  The weights are similar, so it makes sense to balance an electric conversion of an IC plan without the battery.  My 6s batteries weigh just under what 6oz of fuel weighs.  I still think it is unfair to make electric's weight for the pull test with the battery and IC empty.  But, it is what it is.

Ken
AMA 15382
If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC

Offline Mike Alimov

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 391
Re: Electric Newb Question
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2024, 02:41:24 PM »
I would only add to all of the above the need to design very good airflow for cooling of the ESC, motor, and battery- perhaps the biggest challenge in adapting existing designs to electric powertrain. Most cooling systems I have observed look more like an afterthought, tacked onto the traditional nose layout.
Properly cooled electric powertrain will run happier and live longer.

Offline John Rist

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 3042
Re: Electric Newb Question
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2024, 04:20:13 PM »
I would go with front mounted motor.  If you leave room behind you can try different motors of same diameter and different lengths.  Also I think the general opinion is that front mounted motor bearings last longer.
John Rist
AMA 56277

Tags: