News:


  • April 24, 2024, 04:13:20 AM

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: kV ratings.  (Read 1185 times)

Offline Perry Rose

  • Go vote, it's so easy dead people do it all the time.
  • 2015
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1662
kV ratings.
« on: April 09, 2019, 05:09:04 AM »
Why does the kV of motors go down as the power goes up?
I may be wrong but I doubt it.
I wouldn't take her to a dog fight even if she had a chance to win.
The worst part of growing old is remembering when you were young.

Offline John Rist

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2946
Re: kV ratings.
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2019, 08:08:59 PM »
I picked a motor in the Cobra line and compared KV 950 motor to the KV 1350.  As it turns out the the power rating went down as the KV rating went down.

The motors I looked at were the Cobra C-2213 series.  The Cobra C-2213/26 is a 950 KV motor and is rated at 150W.  The Cobra C-2213/18 is a 1350 KV motor and is rated at 220W

All things are identical for these two motors except the KV rating and the power rating.  However The /18 (1350KV) motor has a 18 Turn Delta winding and the /26 (950KV) motor has a 26 Turn Delta winding.   So both motors having the same size case the wire in the 18 turn motor is a much larger gauge wire the the wire in the 26 turn motor.  The bigger diameter wire can handle more power.  That's how I see it.   D>K
John Rist
AMA 56277

Offline Igor Burger

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 2166
Re: kV ratings.
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2019, 05:15:41 AM »
Why does the kV of motors go down as the power goes up?

KV rating has no relation to power rating. The same power we can get from low and also from high KV motors. It the size (ability of radiation) and technology (efficiency) what makes power rating.

However - higher power needs higher current and/or higher voltage. Hunting for power, only by current is not practical, so therefore more powerful motors are usually designed also for higher voltage ... and that dictates lower KV rating.

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12808
Re: kV ratings.
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2019, 03:35:47 PM »
What Igor said, with a different spin:

Motor designers have a wide latitude to set the kV of a motor.  Nothing's ever quite so simple, but to a first approximation, as long as you fill the available space with the same amount copper, you can use just a few turns of thick wire, or lots of turns of thin wire, and get pretty much the same power, torque, and speed out vs. power in.  The difference is that a motor that uses one humongous turn in each slot will have 10 times the kV of a motor that uses ten smaller turns, so it'll use 1/10th the voltage -- but it'll need ten times the current to generate the same power, torque & speed.

This is why you can get your vintage 1950 Ford's starter and generator rewound to 12V -- they replace the existing wire with wire that has half the area, and fill the space with twice as many turns (don't forget to change the regulator, though).

Fewer turns (and higher kV) means more current, which means bigger wires, and fewer, higher capacity cells.  More turns (and lower kV) means less current, which means smaller wires and more cells.  This is good because of the smaller wire, but bad because it complicates ESC design (there's a threshold at around 20V where you have to change the way you drive the MOSFETs; there's a different, lower, softer threshold that has to do with how the on-board battery eliminator circuit is designed).  It's these good vs. bad tradeoffs in the ESC and wiring that drive the choice of kV, more than what the actual motor demands.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline John Rist

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2946
Re: kV ratings.
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2019, 07:18:49 PM »
I picked a motor in the Cobra line and compared KV 950 motor to the KV 1350.  As it turns out the the power rating went down as the KV rating went down.

The motors I looked at were the Cobra C-2213 series.  The Cobra C-2213/26 is a 950 KV motor and is rated at 150W.  The Cobra C-2213/18 is a 1350 KV motor and is rated at 220W

All things are identical for these two motors except the KV rating and the power rating.  However The /18 (1350KV) motor has a 18 Turn Delta winding and the /26 (950KV) motor has a 26 Turn Delta winding.   So both motors having the same size case the wire in the 18 turn motor is a much larger gauge wire the the wire in the 26 turn motor.  The bigger diameter wire can handle more power.  That's how I see it.   D>K

In my practical example above it does appear for a given motor part number the power rating of the motor does vary with KV.  Every thing in the two motors are the same except the wire.  More precisely the number of turns.  This effects wire size and therefore effects the motors power ratting.  Admittedly lots of thing effect the power handling capability of a motor but keeping everything equal except the KV ratting the power ratting will change.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2019, 01:08:36 PM by John Rist »
John Rist
AMA 56277

Offline Dennis Toth

  • 2020 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 4227
Re: kV ratings.
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2019, 03:12:47 PM »
So just for discussion suppose, you have a 1000KV motor and a 4S 2200mah pack set for fixed 9700 rpm. You find after flying you actually need 2300mah to have 20% head room left after a full flight. Now lets say looking at the available 4S packs the next size up is 2500mah and is 1 1/4 oz. heavier. But looking at the available 5S packs there is one that at 1850mah (this gives you the extra capacity at the higher voltage/lower current) that is only 1/2 oz. heavier than the 4S 2200mah pack. This would be a great fit, question is with the 1000Kv motor can you go up to the 5S voltage as long as the rpm setting stays at 9700?

What would be a sign that it is not working well for this motor (besides smoke)?

Best,   DennisT

Offline pmackenzie

  • Pat MacKenzie
  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 765
Re: kV ratings.
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2019, 05:53:59 PM »
In my practical example above it does appear for a given motor part number the power rating of the motor does vary with KV.  Every thing in the two motors are the same except the wire.  More precisely the number of turns.  This effects wire size and therefore effects the motors power ratting.  Admittedly lots of thing effect the power handling capability of a motor but keeping everything equal except the KV ratting the power ratting will change.

With good motors this is not true. Fewer winds will let you use thicker wire. It will all come out the same in the end.

Best case to consider to understand this  is doubling winds to get 1/2 the Kv. For the same copper fill the wire will have half the cross section.
1/2 the section means twice the resistance per unit length, so total resistance is 4 times higher. ( wire is twice as long)
To get the same operating point it will run at twice the voltage and 1/2 the current. Do the math and resistance losses in the motor are the same for both.

Similar math for the battery, assuming battery weight is held constant.

Any other winding ratio the math will work out the same, just a bit harder to calculate :)

Look at the power ratings for Neu motors, in a given motor size they are all the same.

MAAC 8177

Offline John McMakin

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • New Pilot
  • *
  • Posts: 2
Re: kV ratings.
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2019, 08:16:37 PM »
Why does the kV of motors go down as the power goes up?

Lots of good responses for this question.  From a pratical standpoint lower KV allows the motor to run effciently with a larger prop within the current rating of the motor.  Thrust is an important part of the equation in addition to A and W.  Many motors have graphs showing current, watts and thrust with different voltages and prop sizes.  These can help visualize how it all works. 

Offline John McMakin

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • New Pilot
  • *
  • Posts: 2
Re: kV ratings.
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2019, 08:35:32 PM »
So just for discussion suppose, you have a 1000KV motor and a 4S 2200mah pack set for fixed 9700 rpm. You find after flying you actually need 2300mah to have 20% head room left after a full flight. Now lets say looking at the available 4S packs the next size up is 2500mah and is 1 1/4 oz. heavier. But looking at the available 5S packs there is one that at 1850mah (this gives you the extra capacity at the higher voltage/lower current) that is only 1/2 oz. heavier than the 4S 2200mah pack. This would be a great fit, question is with the 1000Kv motor can you go up to the 5S voltage as long as the rpm setting stays at 9700?

What would be a sign that it is not working well for this motor (besides smoke)?

Best,   DennisT

Dennis, motors and esc's have a voltage rating usually listed by Lipo cell count.  Note the KV doesn't determine the voltage the motor can handle.  Exceeding any of the ratings for motor and ESC will show up as heat.  Too hot to touch is the warning sign.  An inexpensive watt meter like this: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00C1BZSYO/ref=psdc_14244451_t3_B001B6N2WK 
will be invaluable for comparing your setup vs. the specs for the motor and ESC.  I've been using this particular one for years and I'm satisfied with it.

Offline Dennis Toth

  • 2020 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 4227
Re: kV ratings.
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2019, 10:52:39 AM »
John,
I understand the idea that heat is a sign that things are not right. Thanks for the link to the Watt meter, shipping was free so I bought it, $13. 

What I was getting at was if all operating parameters (prop load, size, diameter, rpm, airplane, line length) stayed the same and you just want to swap battery packs for a 5S from the 4S that would give just that little extra capacity at a better weight would the 1000Kv motor handle this? My thinking being that since the load is the same and electrically the motor sees higher voltage at lower current it shouldn't have a heat problem with this. I understand that if you pushed for higher output than yes, it would have higher voltage and higher current more heat.

This is the one problem we have in electric, not being able to customize our fuel tank size in small steps. Our choices are often big steps and big jumps in the weight of that extra fuel. Beign able to go up one cell and get apack that fits the capacity and is a bit lighter would be a useful option.

Before I smoke test this idea just wanted to see if others have already been doing this.

Best,   DennisT

Offline Dane Martin

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2804
  • heli pilot BHOR
Re: kV ratings.
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2019, 11:06:35 AM »
So you're asking can you take a 4s out, and put in a 5s with no other changes?
So with a 4s, whatever prop you're spinning is spinning roughly 14,800 rpm. So now you throw a 5s at it without anything else, you'll be spinning the same prop around 18,500 rpm. So the current draw would raise dramatically. So you either change the prop, or alter your timer rpm settings. So really, I'm not sure if there's a direct yes or no answer to the question.

Offline Dennis Toth

  • 2020 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 4227
Re: kV ratings.
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2019, 11:50:28 AM »
Dane,
I missed putting in one item, the ESC is set for Fixed RPM at 9700, timer is a Zetron set for 100% (timer is only used to time the run not control rpm) for both the 4S and 5S packs, all other loads are the same for both packs. Just trying to get some extra head room in the pack at the end of the flight.

Best,    DennisT

Offline Dane Martin

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2804
  • heli pilot BHOR
Re: kV ratings.
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2019, 12:05:52 PM »
Gotcha. Makes sense now

Offline Igor Burger

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 2166
Re: kV ratings.
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2019, 12:22:48 PM »
What I was getting at was if all operating parameters (prop load, size, diameter, rpm, airplane, line length) stayed the same and you just want to swap battery packs for a 5S from the 4S that would give just that little extra capacity at a better weight would the 1000Kv motor handle this? My thinking being that since the load is the same and electrically the motor sees higher voltage at lower current it shouldn't have a heat problem with this.

No, it does not. The same motor at the same RPM and the same load will see effectively the same voltage and the same current. There is ESC with PWM power gulator to do that job. The only difference is, that while that low voltage can be proximately constant, the higher volatge will mean chopped current. For example while 10A can do the job at constant value (100% power setting) Then those 10A average of higher voltage battery will be chopped to current peaks and off periodes. For example 20A 1/2 of the periode and 0A the other period. So if motor has 100mohm resistace, it will make I^2 * R = 100* 0.1 = 10W copper loses. While the same chopped current will make : 20^2 * 0.1 /2 = 400 * .1 / 2 = 20W. And that is twice more.

The rule is that the lower PWM restriction is the lower loses are.

The same also means that the same motor runs out of his best efficiency - best efficiency we get when copper loses are equal to iron loses. While iron loses are the same with both batteries, copper loses are higher with high voltage battery so it runs out of its best efficiency like it was overloaded (high current). So it need smaller load and higher RPM to push it back (to make higher iron loses and smaller copper loses ath the same power). And that logic will push you to smaller prop - exactly like you can expect from more cells.  ;D



Advertise Here
Tags:
 


Advertise Here