Author Topic: ELECTRIC CONTROL LINE SPEED (Read 4150 times)

dynasoar1948 · « **on:** January 14, 2007, 11:38:50 AM »

Gentlemen,

This is to remind you all that two official AMA competition classes exist for Electric CL Speed. Events 606 and 607 in the Rule Book.

These events, Class A and B are exciting and challanging, with record speeds of about 90 and 120 MPH respectivly. Both events are flown U-Control, so there is no requirement to learn to fly MonoLine.

If there is any interest on Stunthanger, let me know and I'll provide more information.

Will Stewart, AMA 1947

Mike Palko · « **Reply #1 on:** January 14, 2007, 01:04:02 PM »

Will,
I for one would love more information. I am planning on doing a speed ship at some point, but have to many projects going on as it is. It was last year when I originally started the project, but I believe the rules limit you to brushed motors and NiCD cells. I didn't like the rules so I had planned on doing an unlimited (experimental) class racer for my own enjoyment. I figured I would take it to the NATS and do demo flights if anyone was interested. If the rules are updated I think electric speed would have a better chance of catching on.

dynasoar1948 · « **Reply #2 on:** January 14, 2007, 05:34:05 PM »

Mike,

The AMA rules permit any motor type. The cells must be NiCad, however at the discharge currents already in use (Approaching 85 AMP at start) I believe that NiCads are the only type suitable.

Briefly, the rules are, for Class A a maximum of 7 cells, and 42 foot X 0.012 lines. For Class B, 30 cells max, 60 Oz max weight (which limits number of cells to well under 30) and 60 feet of 0.018 lines.

I am using an AVEOX brushless in B and Howard Doering, the A record holder uses an Astroflight brush motor.

Will

Mike Palko · « **Reply #3 on:** January 14, 2007, 07:04:04 PM »

Will,
I guess if I do a speed ship I might as well make it legal. I figured it would be more fun to go unlimited and "show em what ya got".......

The fact that I can use brushless motors is a huge advantage. Brushed motors were the real reason I never considered competing. NiCD's I can work around. Do you know if NiMH cells are legal?

You mentioned Li-Poly cells not being able to handle the 85amp levels. Check out some of the new 20C and 25C cells. You can pull almost unthinkable current from them (200+ amps). The RC fliers have gone over 200mph and have turned over 40k.......

I will look into the rules and maybe put something together later this year. I might work with a local speed flier and just give him advice on what to do. I don't have the time to build, trim, fly, and compete in speed, but I do have an interest.

Thanks for starting this thread. Might jump start me......

Mike Palko · « **Reply #4 on:** January 17, 2007, 09:41:26 PM »

Here are the new 2007 rules for control line electric speed.

3. Control Line.
3.1. General Specifications. The use of gear boxes and multiple motors
is permitted. Folding props are not permitted. No electrical power may
be transmitted through the control lines. The use of radio control is
not permitted. All applicable sections of Control Line General and
Control Line Speed shall govern model and line construction and the
timing of flights. There shall be no loading requirements for Electric
Speed models.
3.2. Class A Control Line Speed
For event 606.
Any motor(s) allowed but the battery pack is limited to a maximum of 8.4
volts nominal of any battery type.
The model must successfully pass a 25G pull test prior to flight.
The flight speed will be calculated based on the ten (10) laps of the
circuit following three complete laps in the pylon.
Two (2) control lines, solid steel, shall be used and they shall be 42
feet long. Multistrand lines are not permitted. The minimum diameter of
each line shall be .012 inches.
The CD will determine whether hand launches are permitted.
3.3. Class B Control Line Speed
For event 607.
Any motor(s) allowed with the battery pack limited to a maximum of 42
volts nominal of any battery type.
The model must successfully pass a 25G pull test prior to flight.
The pair of solid steel control lines must be at least .018 inches in
diameter and not shorter than 60 feet in length. Multistrand lines are
not permitted. Maximum weight shall be 60 oz.
Flight speed will be calculated based on seven (7) laps of the circuit
following three (3) complete laps in the pylon.
The CD will determine whether hand launches are permitted.

Robert Bolton · « **Reply #5 on:** January 18, 2007, 03:54:13 AM »

I see by the rules any battery type is allowed this will open the event up too some pretty fast speeds in the future!! as the weight of lipos compared too nicad's will make it interesting

Robert

dynasoar1948 · « **Reply #6 on:** January 20, 2007, 03:28:17 PM »

Mike,

The information about elimination of the NiCad battery requirement from AMA rules, as discussed above, is welcome. My only problem is the rules, presented on the AMA site, still specify NiCad. Could you clarify?

Thanks,

Will Stewart

Mike Palko · « **Reply #7 on:** January 21, 2007, 12:11:39 PM »

Will,
Since I'm toying with the idea of building a speed ship, I contacted the AMA about any future rule changes so I don't build an obsolete airplane/power system. Steve Kaluf replied with the following rules for 2007. He said the AMA web site should be updated by the 18th or 19th of January, but I guess they are a little behind.

Alan Hahn · « **Reply #8 on:** January 21, 2007, 05:38:53 PM »

Now I don't normally slam the AMA, since I have been a happy camper for a long time, but quite honestly, the coordination of the competition regulations really don't seem to be run by competent people. If they are going to a Web Version only, they had better come up with some way of "versioning" the pdf files. I mean look at them. You have no idea as to the date of the particular file you get.

I mean if Mike P. goes off and makes a new plane using LiPo's, and the rules stay the same, what does he do but say Steve Kaluf told me?

This is pretty lousy. Winter is building season here in the Chicago area (and Muncie too), don't you feel a little dumb to be building to secret rules. I know secret rules are the rage nowadays, but I had better hope for the AMA.

Anyhow the Bears just won!

Mike Palko · « **Reply #9 on:** January 21, 2007, 09:02:07 PM »

Quote from: Alan Hahn on January 21, 2007, 05:38:53 PM

Now I don't normally slam the AMA, since I have been a happy camper for a long time, but quite honestly, the coordination of the competition regulations really don't seem to be run by competent people. If they are going to a Web Version only, they had better come up with some way of "versioning" the pdf files. I mean look at them. You have no idea as to the date of the particular file you get.

I mean if Mike P. goes off and makes a new plane using LiPo's, and the rules stay the same, what does he do but say Steve Kaluf told me? This is pretty lousy. Winter is building season here in the Chicago area (and Muncie too), don't you feel a little dumb to be building to secret rules. I know secret rules are the rage nowadays, but I had better hope for the AMA.

Anyhow the Bears just won!

Alan,
I agree the rules seem to be made up and changed at random by people who don't really know whats going on in each specific category of competition. I guess they are doing the best they can? I don't know so I can't say.

I'm not sure how to take the second papagraph of your reply.

As for secret rules, there are none that I know of. The whole reason I posted the updated rules is to help others.

Alan Hahn · « **Reply #10 on:** January 22, 2007, 10:25:40 AM »

Mike,
By "secret rules" I was refering to the community even larger than our AMA community (sorry for the lame joke!). Also if there are rules which exist, but not printed, they are considered "secret" to me. It wasn't meant as a slam on you. It was meant a a slam on the AMA rule procedures.

In years past, I thought, but could be wrong, that the AMA competitions rule book for a given year was meant to be available prior to that year--how else can one plan? I know the AMA Site mentions looking for rule changes in an amendment sheet at the beginning of in each section, but I looked and didn't see anything in the electric section.

Mike Palko · « **Reply #11 on:** January 22, 2007, 09:49:18 PM »

Alan,
No harm no foul.

I didn't know if you were kidding or slamming me. Thanks for clearing that up.

Like I said before I agree with you on the rules changes. You bring up a good point about building to the rules. Look how far into the building season we are and no changes are made on the AMA web site. At least we will all be one year behind.....

hehe

dynasoar1948 · « **Reply #12 on:** January 31, 2007, 02:33:39 PM »

Hi Mike,

Sorry for my absense from this forum. Not lack of interest, but a consulting project that is taking longer than it should.

Will

Mike Palko · « **Reply #13 on:** January 31, 2007, 09:04:15 PM »

No problem. Once again my speed project has come to a halt also. Not a lack of interest on my part either. Hopefully I will have something this summer, but other projects may take precedence.

Alan Hahn · « **Reply #14 on:** February 06, 2007, 11:18:25 AM »

I just looked at the AMA Competition Site and note the new Electric rules are up. Even better, they have a cover page with a date!

dynasoar1948 · « **Reply #15 on:** June 30, 2007, 08:40:13 PM »

Gentlemen,

Have finally decided to bite the bullet and complete my long delayed B-Electric Speed ship. The roll-out is planned for the Labor Day Weekend Denver contest, where the 5000+ foot altitude could boost performance over my previous sea-level speeds. The battery will be put together using the 18 best of my present nine year old NiCads (can't beat the price), with a new technology battery following later. As I wrote earlier, I'm limited to the voltage of my present battery (sea level) to keep from losing my only Aveox commutation module.

I've also got an Aveox AVX-1409/3 Delta motor for a Class A ship, but have no commutation module for the motor. A while back in this forum it was suggested that available sensorless BDC modules could be used with this specific motor. What I'm looking for is a module capable of handling at least 60 Amps at about 8.4 Volts for 30 seconds per flight. Programming should not require an RC setup, since all I want is to be able to start (ramp up would be nice) and stop the motor with, for example, a signal relay or equiv changing state to effect control. No throttling is needed, since the motor should run at 100%.

Cost is always a consideration, both for the commutation module and the eventual flight battery packs.

I'm soliciting specific suggestions and will keep the forum advised of progress.

Thanks, Will Stewart

dynasoar1948 · « **Reply #16 on:** June 11, 2008, 07:24:54 PM »

Gentlemen,

Like the Boeing 787 Dreamliner, my new B Electric speed ship has had a delayed roll-out. It is ready for test flying at the Bill & Bev Wisnewski Memorial contest at Whittier Narrows Calif this weekend. Checking back on my previous post of about a year ago, there have been some changes.

The motor is still an AVEOX-1415-2, however the integral Hall sensors and Aveox commutation module have disappeared, replaced by a Castle Creations Phoenix 80 ESC and a combined Timer and BEC from Will Hubin, which has worked beautifully for me in high power ground runs.

The airplane itself is powered by 18 twelve year old Ni-Cad cells (after all, they set the speed record in 1999) tho I plan to replace them with NiMh 1500s if the airplane works out.

The airplane is more conventional than my earlier ships, with a 28-inch span and about 160 square inches wing area. The battery is 4-cells square in cross section, so my fuselage length has been decreased substantially, along with moment of inertia in pitch, which should make the ship handle much better than the earlier "flying pencil".

Assuming good results at Whittier (I have to fly my Sport-Jet too), I hope to go to up to 22 of the lighter cells and try for 130 MPH later.

Will Stewart

dynasoar1948 · « **Reply #17 on:** June 15, 2008, 10:58:37 PM »

Gentlemen,

The new B-Electric speed ship flew just fine at Whittier Narrows yesterday. Two flights feeling the ship out, with good dolly separation and stable flight. Managed to officially break 100 MPH on 12 year old NiCads.

Typo in my description of airplane, wingspread is actually 38-inches.

Today, got 59 year old DynaJet up to a shade under 147 MPH in Sport-Jet

Will Stewart

dynasoar1948 · « **Reply #18 on:** July 04, 2008, 10:01:29 PM »

Gentlemen,

I'll ask again a question I raised last August, which got no replies. Possibly in the year that has elapsed, someone has learned the answer. The question asked for a comparison between the Sanyo 1100 SCR NiCad and the Elite 1500a Sub C NiMh at for use at very high currents for short duration (37 Sec) runs. When I bought the Sanyos about 10 years ago the consensus was that they were not going to last for many flights- in reality I got about 40 runs over a 3 year period (as well as a few low current capacity tests) at record speeds. Last month I test flew these old cells in a new Speed ship at around 85% of the record. Not bad performance after all this abuse and non-use. Anyone have a feel about how well the Elite 1500a cell will perform under similar conditions. I have been told that 10 years of cell development should provide at least comparable survival at 80A (initially).

Any thoughts? I sure don't want to go to Li at this time.

Thanks, Will Stewart

Mike Palko · « **Reply #19 on:** July 05, 2008, 01:41:23 PM »

Hi Will,
I doubt anyone on this forum will have any experience with the Elite 1500's. If they do I doubt it would be in the current ranges you plan to use them in. You may want to contact a distributer with your question, but even then you may not get a definite answer.

I can say the cells are not designed for this application (but neither were the 1100SCR cells), so their life may be short. How short, we won't know until you get some real world data. I say give it a shot, you might be surprised. At $2.50 a cell a 22cell pack will only set you back about $70.00 after you buy the cells,bars,wire,shipping..... Not a bad price to potentially set the world record if you ask me.

If you're really worried, buy 22 cells and start with a 18 cell pack. Up the cell count every couple flights until you feel they are maxed out (being abused) or you reached your speed goal.

Mike

dynasoar1948 · « **Reply #20 on:** July 05, 2008, 06:29:24 PM »

Mike,

Thanks for the reply. My restating the question was the result of a slight case of buyer's remorse, since I had just received my 22 Elite cells, and they seemed so small. I plan to start with 18, just as you suggested, and up the complement to 20 depending on results. CC says 20 cells is the max for the Phoenix series, but I ordered 22 in case I feel really daring. Any more would push my new B ship over the weight limit.

The consensus on charging NiMh cells is to stay below about 2C, while NiCads could go at 4C. What is your opinion?

My decision to not go with 123s was based on not wanting to buy a new charger. I now understand that there are lithium conversion adapters for use with NiCad chargers at a fraction of the cost of an Li capable system.

Thanks again for the input.

Will

Mike Palko · « **Reply #21 on:** July 05, 2008, 10:33:33 PM »

Hi Will,
It has been a long time since I flew NiMH cells, but if I remember correctly they were first charged at 1/10 C for break in and balancing purposes. After that charge/fly as normal.

NiMH cells perform best when HOT (especially for racing/speed events) so fly them as quickly as you can after charging. If you fly cold Vs. hot cells your MPH will probably vary quite a bit.

The 1500's are small cells, so staying around a 2C charge rate will be a good start. I forget healthy temps pre/post flights, but a little research will jog my memory.

Will you be at the Nationals?

Mike

dynasoar1948 · « **Reply #22 on:** July 06, 2008, 01:32:07 PM »

Hi Mike,

Here is how I used to race my Sanyo 1100 SCR NiCads when they were new: Charge pack overnight at say C/10. Make a test flight at the contest, then complete discharge at 1A to 1V/cell on my SR charger/cycler. Before my official I'd fast charge at 4.5A till the SR shut off after maybe 20 minutes, then fly. Typically, capacity on cycling would be maybe 350 mA. I also would occasionally skip the cycling down, and fast charge the battery from the partially charged condition. I believe that speeds were higher when charge was from cycled state.

The SR charger automatically terminates fast charge after 30 minutes, so this may pose a complication if charging current is held to 2A for my Elite 1500a NiMh cells. Certainly, if I cycle the battery, charging might run to 45 minutes or so. How necessary is cycling? Possibly the only benefit of longer fast charging is a warmer battery for my official flight.

I've got some photos of my new B Speed ship, but have not managed to forward them to the forum. I'll try again later.

I won't be at the Nationals, but compete regularly on the West Coast.

Regards, Will

Mike Palko · « **Reply #23 on:** July 06, 2008, 06:13:23 PM »

Hi Will,
I rarely cycled my batteries, but I only flew them for two seasons. If I were to fly round cells again I would probably fly all day without cycling. I would have to research more up to date methods for handling round cells, but cycling once a flying session (at the end of the day) would probably be sufficient.

I do know NiMH cells only give you one, maybe two, strong flights. After that they need a break. It is common to use one pack per flight in competition because of this. If you plan to go for a record I would keep this in mind. You may not get a second chance that day. At least if you are marginal on speed to begin with.

Mike

dynasoar1948 · « **Reply #24 on:** July 08, 2008, 09:06:59 AM »

Hi Mike,

Based on your previous and other information on the handling of NiMh cells, here's what I plan to do: two days before contest, charge overnight at <C/10 from whatever storage charge state. Eve of contest, cycle down to 1.0V at 1A. At contest, no test flight- fast charge at 2.0 to 2.5A. Fly official immediately. For next official (or record backup flight) fast charge at 2.0 to 2.5A from partially discharged state. Leave battery at partially discharged condition till next contest.

At some contests, I've had to fly four officials in one day ( record speed, two non-record officials and record backup flight).

Looks like I'll have to invest in A123s if I want to fly more than maybe twice a day. This will mean a new fuselage to accommodate the smaller number of larger cells, + $$ for cells and charger.

Thanks again for information,

Will

bfrog · « **Reply #25 on:** July 26, 2008, 11:01:53 AM »

Mike, I talked briefly with you at the Nats and you had mentioned your intention to build an electric speed plane. I normally fly carrier but now have started with E carrier and the speed idea sounds fun. I have a couple of questions that maybe someone can help me with to get my mind started in the right direction. I have flown 1/2A profile proto at the Nats the last two years and think an additional speed event would be fun too.

Will mentioned Aveox motors, I have been using Axi and Scorpion motors on the E carrier planes. What are some general ideas about motor selection for speed. I am guessing you want something that will spin very fast. Most of the outrunners are lower Kv although some of the new heli motors spin faster. I would plan to use Lipos not Nicad of Nihm so I guess 2 cells are the max. I'm just trying to get a direction so that I can do some further research.

Thanks
Bob Frogner

Mike Palko · « **Reply #26 on:** July 30, 2008, 05:09:12 PM »

Hi Bob,
It was nice talking with you at the Nationals. I never did get down to the carrier circles to watch the electric flights. The week always goes by so fast once the competition starts!

If you look at the RC events which require speed you will see the vast majority use inrunners. Direct drive for pylon racing (F5D) and geared for LMR events (F5B). Outrunners have been prooven to be competitive, but most if not all have been custom/purpose built. To keep things simple there is no reason not to go with an off the shelf direct drive inrunner.

If you are going to build a class A electric speed plane I would go with one of the following (There are MANY alternatives):

Hacker B20
Hacker B40
NEU 11XX series
Mega 16/XX/XX series
ARC 20-34-XX
ARC 28-37-XX

If you are going to build a Class B electric speed plane I would go with one of the following (again there are MANY alternatives). You will probably want to use a larger motor than the class A plane because you have to run .018" x 60' solids, the voltage limit is 42 volts and the weight limit is 60oz:

Any of the above plus larger versions.....
Hacker B50
NEU 15XX series
Mega 22XX series

The 8.4 volt limit you mentioned only applies to class A speed. Right now almost any setup will be competitive and if nothing else a lot of fun! If you have more questions just ask.

Here is a link to the 2007/2008 rules for electric C/L speed. http://www.modelaircraft.org/events/rulebooks/Electric.pdf

Mike

bfrog · « **Reply #27 on:** July 30, 2008, 10:15:32 PM »

Mike,

Thanks for the tips. I'm thinking class A to start with. I looked at the New motor site and they have a pretty nifty motor calculator that will give me some ideas. It doesn't look like it would be too hard to come up with something that is in the ballpark and in the range that I am familiar with.

Bob

dynasoar1948 · « **Reply #28 on:** September 30, 2008, 08:43:28 AM »

Gentlemen,

Flew B Electric Speed at the AMA contest held last weekend at Whittier Narrows, Calif. Speed was only 110.18 MPH using 18 new NiMh 1500 Elite cells. My earlier ship did 119.63 on the same number of Sanyo 1100SCR cells, so I guess possibly I'll invest in six A123 cells if McCain wins and there is hope for the economy.

Best to all, Will Stewart

Alan Hahn · « **Reply #29 on:** September 30, 2008, 09:28:39 AM »

R%%%%4 more years...

Mike Palko · « **Reply #30 on:** September 30, 2008, 09:12:31 PM »

Quote from: dynasoar1948 on September 30, 2008, 08:43:28 AM

Gentlemen,

Flew B Electric Speed at the AMA contest held last weekend at Whittier Narrows, Calif. Speed was only 110.18 MPH using 18 new NiMh 1500 Elite cells. My earlier ship did 119.63 on the same number of Sanyo 1100SCR cells, so I guess possibly I'll invest in six A123 cells if McCain wins and there is hope for the economy.

Best to all, Will Stewart

Hi Will,
Just a few questions because I am curious.

Did you buy more than 18 cells? If so are you going to try adding cells before buying A123's? Can the airplane carry more than 18 cells (weight and size)? I would guess the current draw is less than when you used the 1100SCR cells, can you prop it for more speed or are the batteries over taxed?

Mike

dynasoar1948 · « **Reply #31 on:** October 01, 2008, 10:34:49 AM »

Hi Mike,

You have asked the questions that I've been pondering since the weekend. I bought 22 Elite 1500A cells and made an 18 cell battery. On examination, I noted that one cell seems to have run hotter than the others, since the decorative wrap is shrivelled. The flight weight of the new ship is low enough (53 oz.) to accommodate four more cells (If I don't have to remove and discard the apparently hot runner). Problem may be with the Castle Creations Phoenix voltage limit, which I'll have to discuss with them. The non-op voltage would be way above their limit, if it is absolute, to get a load voltage sufficiently high- etc.

I'd like to forward photos of the ship to the Hangar, but have been unsuccessful in past attempts. Pictures can be found on the Delphi Speed Forum.

Another problem is my skid setup. To keep from loosing a prop per flight, I've got a long 1/8-inch wire under the nose.

Either I've been landing too hard, or the design is not up to the load when the curved bottom digs in, since Its had to be bent back into shape after every landing. Another possibility would be to use the brake feature, but there doesn't appear to be any way to stop the prop horizontally every time. Any ideas?

Regards, Will

Mike Palko · « **Reply #32 on:** October 01, 2008, 04:50:32 PM »

Hi Will,
A few more questions. Did you balance charge the cells before flying them at 1/10C? Did you fly them hot off the charger? What was their temperature after the flight? How much capacity did you use?

It's hard for me to say what your next step should be without being there, but here are a few suggestions that might help you along? If you can measure the voltage under load it will help you determine if the cells are being pushed to hard. This will also help determine if the battery is running hot or just in need of more cooling. If one cell is bad it will need to be replaced (this isn't helping anything). Adding more cells will increase the current draw which will load the cells even more, dropping the voltage under load even further, a downward spiral......

Motor timing effects efficiency which is directly related to temps and power.... I don't know if you have adjusted this, so it might help. I don't know what CC ESC you are using, but a HV ESC might not be a bad idea.

Of course if getting more speed is this much of a struggle it may not be worth the effort? Maybe a new airframe is needed? Maybe A123 cells would work out better?

I will gladly post the pictures for you if you can e-mail them to me. mpalko494@msn.com.

Good luck, Mike

dynasoar1948 · « **Reply #33 on:** October 01, 2008, 10:50:30 PM »

Hi Mike,

I did two 1/10C cycles, discharging each into a cycler at 1.0A. The first showed about 1300mA, the next 1350mA. I did discharge into the cycler after one flight, which indicated about 700mA remaining.

Voltage under simulated flight load was between 15.5 and maybe 14.75. I had no battery cooling in flight- worse yet,the battery was positioned on sides and ends with cut styrofoam shapes. This was not too bright on my part however, to make up for this, here is what I'll try next time: If the battery is wrapped with a piece of microfiber cloth (as seen on TV) and about 3/4 oz of water is wicked into the cloth, suddenly you have an open heat pipe. Water will vaporize as cell temperature rises, and boil above 212F; water will wick in from cooler areas to where it is needed. The phase change will remove (assuming 3/4 oz in 30 seconds) heat at the rate of about 8000 Btu/h. Try it; it is certainly much more effective than air cooling for high heating rates.

I'm using a CC Phoenix 80A.

I really need a good scheme for stopping my prop horizontally.

Will forward pics tomorrow.

Best, Will

dynasoar1948 · « **Reply #34 on:** October 02, 2008, 12:32:03 PM »

Mike,

Please check e-mail address. Everything I try to send bounces.

Will

Mike Palko · « **Reply #35 on:** October 03, 2008, 02:32:29 PM »

Thank you for sharing the pictures Will.