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Author Topic: Electric Continental update with picture  (Read 926 times)

Offline Andrew Borgogna

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Electric Continental update with picture
« on: June 06, 2012, 12:33:36 PM »
Thought I would start a new thread regarding the trimming process.  First off the setup.

Plane:  RSM version of the Tom Warden Continental modified for electric.
Motor:  Hacker A30-10XL
ESC:  ZTW 70amp all settings at default.
Timer:  KR Governor/Timer.
Battery:  Hobby People 3200MAh 4S 25C with Deans connectors.
Prop:  APC 12x6.5WEP
External battery disconnect per Brett's proposed rule change.
All up ready to fly weight 62.5 ounces.

OK my initial setup had the RPM set at 8500RPM with the governor gain set to 5.  This gave me 4.9 second lap times.  With the handle set to full wide and the CG too far forward the plane was a slug.  After calculating the MAC and setting the CG to 20% (per Larry Renger's recommendation) the CG seemed very close to where it will wind up.  But the lap times seemed too fast and the plane was still hunting.  So I took the handle spacing down to minimum spacing and dropped the RPM to 8100 RPM.  This smoothed out the plane a lot and I was able to do every maneuver in the pattern.  Corners seemed good and inside/outside loops were consistent in size.  The plane had excellent line tention in the overhead eight, the vertical eight, and hourglass. The lap time increased from 4.9 to 5.3 seconds.  This is where I like to fly and the plane felt very comfortable.  

Battery usage went from 71% to 62% giving me some head room to look for lighter batteries, which hopefully will allow me to take some lead out of the tail and generally improve the plane.

After the first flight I checked all the internal power system hardware for heat build up.  The Continental is my first full fuselage electric stunt plane.  The IR thermometer showed everything was well within spec except the motor.  It was running around 145 degrees F.  I modified the spinner to allow air to pass through and opened up a large internal passage to get more air over the motor.  I also added a exit vent to get the hot air out.  With the RPM still set at 8500 RPM the temperature on the motor dropped 10 degrees F.  After setting the RPM down to 8100 RPM the motor temperature dropped another 9 degrees F with a total reduction of 19 degrees F over the first flight.  At 125 degrees I am going to add two additional small exit vents on the side of the fuselage to try and move more air out of the motor compartment.  Having said that I am happy with 125 degrees at the end of the flight.

From here I will next do some further examination of the control system to make absolutely sure every thing aligned correctly.  But all in all things are looking good for the Continental.
Andy
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 12:19:29 PM by Andrew Borgogna »
Andrew B. Borgogna

Offline Andrew Borgogna

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Re: Electric Continental update.
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2012, 03:48:52 PM »
Next time out I will use a 2600mha 4S battery.  The numbers say it should work and it's 1.1 ounce lighter.  I can also remove a .25 ounce from the tail and it balances out.  So that's 1.35 ounce to the lighter, it can only help. y1
Andy
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Offline Will Moore

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Re: Electric Continental update.
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2012, 07:23:51 PM »
Andrew;   

Try using a Hacker cooling fan on the motor shaft .
It might change temp dramatically of the outrunner.
I run cooling fans on all my airplanes.  There is
very little power penalty and motor will run
more efficiently at lower temps.
Things take longer to happen than you think they will,

Then they happen much faster than you thought they could.
 AMA # 209

Offline Dennis Adamisin

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Re: Electric Continental update.
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2012, 07:54:44 PM »
I like Will's suggestion and wanted to make another.  I think the 12x6.5 Wide might be overloading the motor.  I also know it is very heavy.  The COntinental is not THAT big an airplane either.  I think you should try a 12x6EP (raise the RPM to around 9000) or even an 11x5.5EP (9800 RPM) and see how they do.  I KNOW you will pull 10g-15g off the nose, letting you pull a little more out of the tail, and netting a nice weight save.  THe load ont motor will go down as will the temperature.  I would also expect a small savings in battery usage - making your transition to the 4Sx2600's a bit easier yet.

 
Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

As I've grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake!

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: Electric Continental update.
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2012, 08:56:45 AM »
The spinner that Andy is using has been modified to have an entry inlet in front, and the backplate is modified to be a fan.  He also opened up a passage for that air to be directed over the motor.  The temperature is now in an acceptable range.  I agree with the above suggestions to unload it more and ventilate it better while making the plane lighter.

At least it didn't fry the motor before we had a chance to make improvements!  ;D
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline Andrew Borgogna

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Re: Electric Continental update.
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2012, 11:05:18 AM »
I guess at this point I am not overly concerned with motor heat.  The temp. readings looked OK.  Now as for the unloading of the motor by changing props is something to experiment with.  I have APC 12x6EP props and will give it a try.  I still don't have a grasp on why 9000RPM and a 12x6EP will generate less current draw than 8100 RPM and a 12x6.5WEP but I have an amp meter and the time to test.  I do understand load equals current draw and current goes up as we load the motor toward zero RPM.  I also understand that at some RPM/prop load adding more current does little to increase RPM instead the additional current is dissipated as wasted heat.  Which is no good!  So Denny I will give you suggestion a test and let you know how it turns out.
Andy
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Offline Dennis Adamisin

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Re: Electric Continental update.
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2012, 07:55:44 PM »
... and I am not sure what the result will be either but my rationale (if you can call it that) goes along these lines.

* Turning the wide heavy low pitch prop requires a lot of power from the motor.  That loading requires higher current draw that manifests itself through excess heat (the reason WHY the mtor is running so hot in the first place)

* A smaller/lighter prop will not load teh motor as deeply, the current draw will be less and the heat generated much lower.  That will be offset by the fact that you will likely be turning faster.  However, no matter what the motor heat should be lower.

* Oh how I wish you had a thin blade 12x6EP to use. it would not require a big change in RPM!

* output from the prop (work) is the same, the magic question is whether the reduction in current is enough to offset the extra RPM

No matter what, the 12x6 EP is lighter than the 12x6.5WEP so you should be able to gain on your CG issue.

Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

As I've grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake!

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: Electric Continental update.
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2012, 10:27:04 PM »
With higher rpms, don't you have less current draw due to back emf?
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline Andrew Borgogna

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Re: Electric Continental update.
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2012, 11:11:58 AM »
Denny
I do have a 12x6EP and plan to do some testing today.  I will measure heat build up in the motor, battery usage and thrust.  When I get the numbers I will post them.  Larry I don't know the answer to your question, but I think you are correct.
Andy
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Offline Andrew Borgogna

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Re: Electric Continental update.
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2012, 12:01:47 AM »
OK so what did the testing show?  Below is the testing I did and the results.
I used a digital tach, amp meter between the battery and ESC, and a digital scale that measured the pull from the plane.

Test 1
Prop                           Revs                         Current @ battery                         Thrust measured by pull test
12x6.5WEP                  8100                        32amps, 475 watts                        56 ounces (well below the all up weight of 62 ounces)
1 minute motor run used 23% of battery and recharged with 594mha.
Using the formula (594x5) x (.70) x(1.2)=2495mha for a 5 minute run.  I have used this formula many times and it is fairly accurate
for predicting flight usage.  This is well withing the 2600mha pack I plane to use.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Test 2
12x6EP                       9000                         36amps, 512 watts                        61 ounces (almost equal to the all up weight of 62 ounces)
1 minute motor run usage 28% of battery and recharged with 625mha.
Using the formula (625x5) x (.70) x (1.2) = 2625Ymha for a five minute flight.  It's just outside the 2600mha battery, but a slight reduction in revs
could correct that.  

Test 3
I reduced the revs on the 12x6EP to where the thrust was equal to the 12x6.5WEP @ 8100 RPM.   The system developed 56 ounces at 8700RPM with a
current draw of 33amps at 480 watts.  In short when the two props were compared just using generated thrust they compared equally or at least within the margin of error for my tach, amp meter and digital scale used to make the measurement.

Andy
Andrew B. Borgogna


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