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Author Topic: Dean what would work best (most efficient) here?  (Read 2532 times)

Offline RandySmith

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Dean what would work best (most efficient) here?
« on: July 01, 2013, 09:44:19 AM »
Hi Dean
What would you think is the most efficient battery and prop for this spec motor? In terms of weight \power, and all other aspects taken into account.

Diameter: 35
Length: 54
Stator Size (mm): 28 x 26
Li-Po: 3-5
IO (A): 2.1A(10V)
Turns: 5T
Kv: 900
Max Cont.: 29A
Max Burst:  45A/60S
Max Efficiency: >86%
Resistance: 43mohm
Shaft: 5mm
Weight: 170g
Bearings: 3

Regards
Randy
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 03:05:12 PM by RandySmith »

Offline William DeMauro

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Re: Dean what would work best (most efficient) here?
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2013, 10:26:25 AM »
Randy,
 If its the motor I think it is, I can provide a link if you want, then you can run any set-up that we normally run with the Power 25's from E-flite. (4 cell lipo and a 12x6 apc or 13x4.5 or13x5.5 prop or similar)
William
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Offline Dave Denison

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Re: Dean what would work best (most efficient) here?
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2013, 11:05:48 AM »
Randy,
 If its the motor I think it is, I can provide a link if you want, then you can run any setup that we normally run with the Power 25's from E-flite. (4 cell lipo and a 12x6 apc or 13x4.5 or13x5.5 prop or similar)
William

I'd love to have access to that "link"....might just answer some questions...thanks

Dave
Regards
Dave

ama 41041

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Dean what would work best (most efficient) here?
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2013, 11:23:25 AM »
Randy,
 If its the motor I think it is, I can provide a link if you want, then you can run any set-up that we normally run with the Power 25's from E-flite. (4 cell lipo and a 12x6 apc or 13x4.5 or13x5.5 prop or similar)
William

HI Will

It is the HP I sell ( 3 bearing motor very similar to the AXI 2826 series), I know about the setting up for the same as an EF motor, I was curious what the most efficient setup would be, and If the 5 cell would be recommended.

Regards
Randy

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Dean what would work best (most efficient) here?
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2013, 01:43:30 PM »
HI Will

It is the HP I sell ( 3 bearing motor very similar to the AXI 2826 series), I know about the setting up for the same as an EF motor, I was curious what the most efficient setup would be, and If the 5 cell would be recommended.

With a 900Kv and 4 cells that motor should be good for up to 10000RPM at launch.  With five cells you'd just be wasting voltage unless you were launching above 10000RPM -- which people don't seem to be doing with stunt airplanes that need a 430W motor.

Now, if you could talk your supplier into a 720Kv motor...
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Dean what would work best (most efficient) here?
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2013, 02:26:26 PM »
I was curious about the 10 ounce 5 cell battery, that has been mentioned, that would cut a huge amount of weight off.

Randy

Offline William DeMauro

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Re: Dean what would work best (most efficient) here?
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2013, 03:13:09 PM »
I thought it was the HP one. Ideally you want about 700 kv for maximum versatility on a 5 cell. The 770 kv power 32's that a lot of people are running(not me) should not really be run below 9100 rpm on a 5 cell as you fall below the optimum governing range of the Castle ESC's. By the way, Cobra has a few nice motors that would work real good with that 5cell battery that you are talking about. They are also in the same weight range as the AXi 2826 motors.
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Offline jose modesto

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Re: Dean what would work best (most efficient) here?
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2013, 03:16:23 PM »
Randy if you used an axi 2826-12  at 760 KV the 10oz batt can be used. Even better is the 720 KV motor Tim suggested.William D also recommended the Cobra 2826-12 5.8oz 760 KV. If you have a larger model the cobra 3520 at 700 KV 7.5oz can also be used with that batt.  Eflite  32 is Aldo a choice a little heavier.
All motor have been used with TP 2700 5S Batt.
Jose Modesto

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Dean what would work best (most efficient) here?
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2013, 03:38:31 PM »
Randy if you used an axi 2826-12  at 760 KV the 10oz batt can be used. Even better is the 720 KV motor Tim suggested.William D also recommended the Cobra 2826-12 5.8oz 760 KV. If you have a larger model the cobra 3520 at 700 KV 7.5oz can also be used with that batt.  Eflite  32 is Aldo a choice a little heavier.
All motor have been used with TP 2700 5S Batt.
Jose Modesto

HI Jose

Thanks for your input, I am aware of the info you posted, I was curious about the 6 ounce HP, I don't see any downside to running it with a 5 pitch at 10,000 or so , I just do not know if that battery would have enough power to do that, or If It would need another heavier one. This may nix the light 5 cell as it may use too much of that capacity.

regards
Randy

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Dean what would work best (most efficient) here?
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2013, 03:57:22 PM »
Even better is the 720 KV motor Tim suggested.

Alas, the 720 kV motor I suggested is a product of my fertile imagination, so there may not be one out there.

Thanks for your input, I am aware of the info you posted, I was curious about the 6 ounce HP, I don't see any downside to running it with a 5 pitch at 10,000 or so , I just do not know if that battery would have enough power to do that, or If It would need another heavier one. This may nix the light 5 cell as it may use too much of that capacity.

Randy, in theory running such a setup would be perfectly fine -- but that's if you ignore switching losses in the ESC and iron losses in the motor.  I know that driving motors in similar circumstances in industrial equipment can be done with reasonable efficiency -- but it depends a lot on the amplifier (ESC) and the motor -- and I simply do not know how a Castle ESC and your motor would behave.

If I had the necessary stuff on hand, I'd just try it.  Any smart old engineer would do the same thing: there's just too many variables to work through this by theory.  Put the motor on a stand with a suitable prop (probably a bit less than a flight prop, because you'll be running it on the ground).  Run the motor at a given RPM with each battery while monitoring the battery voltage and the current into the ESC.  Check the power used by the motor/ESC in each case, and check to see how much the battery voltage sags.  All your answers will be there.  All you need is a voltmeter, a current meter that can do 40 amps, and a test stand.  Or, a Wattmeter and a test stand.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Dean what would work best (most efficient) here?
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2013, 06:25:02 PM »
Alas, the 720 kV motor I suggested is a product of my fertile imagination, so there may not be one out there.

Randy, in theory running such a setup would be perfectly fine -- but that's if you ignore switching losses in the ESC and iron losses in the motor.  I know that driving motors in similar circumstances in industrial equipment can be done with reasonable efficiency -- but it depends a lot on the amplifier (ESC) and the motor -- and I simply do not know how a Castle ESC and your motor would behave.

If I had the necessary stuff on hand, I'd just try it.  Any smart old engineer would do the same thing: there's just too many variables to work through this by theory.  Put the motor on a stand with a suitable prop (probably a bit less than a flight prop, because you'll be running it on the ground).  Run the motor at a given RPM with each battery while monitoring the battery voltage and the current into the ESC.  Check the power used by the motor/ESC in each case, and check to see how much the battery voltage sags.  All your answers will be there.  All you need is a voltmeter, a current meter that can do 40 amps, and a test stand.  Or, a Wattmeter and a test stand.


Thanks Tim

I have all the equipment to do that, and It looks like that will be what I'll wind up doing, I had just thought Dean or someone may have ran something similar. Or had knowledge about a similar system in someones plane.. I guess I maybe ought to look at the battery that Igor is using. I have people using this setup but with a 4 cell Lipo

Randy

Offline jose modesto

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Re: Dean what would work best (most efficient) here?
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2013, 07:19:47 PM »
Randy been there done that with the KV motor you have, even my 5S 4000 dint work drained Batt 3/4 way through pattern.
Just my opinion
Jose Modesto

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Dean what would work best (most efficient) here?
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2013, 07:53:10 PM »
Randy been there done that with the KV motor you have, even my 5S 4000 dint work drained Batt 3/4 way through pattern.
Just my opinion
Jose Modesto

Thanks Jose
 What prop were you using with that setup, Wow draining that battery in 3/4 of a flight is not something I would expect, were you running a 4.5 or so pitch?
If that is the case, looks like I will stick with the 4 cell battery , or maybe would make more sense to use the E-Flite 32 motor with the 5 cell

Randy
« Last Edit: July 02, 2013, 11:41:26 AM by RandySmith »

Offline Dean Pappas

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Re: Dean what would work best (most efficient) here?
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2013, 07:52:09 PM »
Hi Randy,
With a KV of 900, this is a 4 cell motor. You've got that already.
How big of a capacity? Depends ... figure 0.6 watt-hours per ounce of all-up weight just to fly the schedule. Add another third to half for proper margin and to avoid over-discharging.
When you cut capacity thin (like using 80% to make a flight) the lower C rating batteries (17C to maybe 25C) may not cut it. This is when low voltage cutoffs kick in as batteries age or on cold days.
Upping the C ratings often costs as much weight as running bigger capacity 25C batteries and having 30% or more of the capacity left after the flight.

Often there are two good combos: one with less margin and high C batts, and another with lightweight packs and more capacity margin. My guess is that the winning (lightest) combo varies with airplane weight.

Then throw in the 5S vs 4S thing and the number of sweet-spot combinations multiplies, provided you have motors with the right KV's.

I haven't answered your question, have I?
Dean
Dean Pappas

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Dean what would work best (most efficient) here?
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2013, 09:10:38 PM »
Hi Randy,
With a KV of 900, this is a 4 cell motor. You've got that already.
How big of a capacity? Depends ... figure 0.6 watt-hours per ounce of all-up weight just to fly the schedule. Add another third to half for proper margin and to avoid over-discharging.
When you cut capacity thin (like using 80% to make a flight) the lower C rating batteries (17C to maybe 25C) may not cut it. This is when low voltage cutoffs kick in as batteries age or on cold days.
Upping the C ratings often costs as much weight as running bigger capacity 25C batteries and having 30% or more of the capacity left after the flight.

Often there are two good combos: one with less margin and high C batts, and another with lightweight packs and more capacity margin. My guess is that the winning (lightest) combo varies with airplane weight.

Then throw in the 5S vs 4S thing and the number of sweet-spot combinations multiplies, provided you have motors with the right KV's.

I haven't answered your question, have I?
Dean


Hi Dean

Sorta yes.. I was curious if anyone was running a motor like this with a very light 5 cell using a 4.5 to 5 pitch props, I was wanting to find a light setup for running in the 10,000 RPM range..give or take a  few Rs. On a 610 to 630 Sq IN planes.
  Next question if this is a bust , is what is the best 15 size  e motor, I have talked with some running this size on Classic ships.



Randy

and  yep  I did read the battery life thread ;D

Offline Dean Pappas

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Re: Dean what would work best (most efficient) here?
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2013, 11:40:23 AM »
Hi Randy,
You mean Nobler-sized?

Dean
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Offline RandySmith

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Re: Dean what would work best (most efficient) here?
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2013, 11:46:15 AM »
Hi Randy,
You mean Nobler-sized?

Dean

Yes Mackey Lark and Nobler sized Tucker Special etc...  Or maybe they said  E Flite 15 and  really meant 25??  But I had more than one tell me this

The motor I was talking about is below
:
Power 15 Brushless Outrunner Motor, 950Kv
Key Features

    Equivalent to a 15-size glow engine for sport and scale airplanes weighing 36–56 oz (1020–1590 g)
    Ideal for 3D airplanes weighing 32–40 oz (910–1135 g)
    Ideal for models requiring up to 575 watts of power
    High-torque, direct-drive alternative to inrunner brushless motors
    Includes mount, prop adapters and mounting hardware
    External rotor design—5mm shaft can easily be reversed for alternative motor installations
    Slotted 14-pole outrunner design
    High-quality construction with ball bearings and hardened steel shaft
    Quiet, lightweight operation

Overview
« Last Edit: July 07, 2013, 08:27:38 PM by RandySmith »

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Dean what would work best (most efficient) here?
« Reply #17 on: July 25, 2013, 02:10:30 PM »
 " Quote from: Dean Pappas on July 03, 2013, 01:40:23 PM
Hi Randy,
You mean Nobler-sized?

Dean

Yes Mackey Lark and Nobler sized Tucker Special etc...  Or maybe they said  E Flite 15 and  really meant 25??  But I had more than one tell me this

The motor I was talking about is below
:
Power 15 Brushless Outrunner Motor, 950Kv
Key Features

    Equivalent to a 15-size glow engine for sport and scale airplanes weighing 36–56 oz (1020–1590 g)
    Ideal for 3D airplanes weighing 32–40 oz (910–1135 g)
    Ideal for models requiring up to 575 watts of power
    High-torque, direct-drive alternative to inrunner brushless motors
    Includes mount, prop adapters and mounting hardware
    External rotor design—5mm shaft can easily be reversed for alternative motor installations
    Slotted 14-pole outrunner design
    High-quality construction with ball bearings and hardened steel shaft
    Quiet, lightweight operation

Overview "

I still would like to hear about people experience with the E-Flite 15, or equivalent and using them on smaller classic sized ships like the Nobler, Smoothie, Ares, etc..

Regards
Randy

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