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Electric Stunt => Gettin all AMP'ed up! => Topic started by: John Rist on January 20, 2023, 06:07:39 PM

Title: Climb And Dive Timer Revue
Post by: John Rist on January 20, 2023, 06:07:39 PM
I ordered one of the Climb and Dive Timer and it arrived last Tuesday.  Paul Emmerson of CircuitFlyer  is the creator.  His web sight is www.circuitflyer.com.  As he puts it: "Low Cost DIY Control Line Timer".

The version I am working with can be found at:

 https://circuitflyer.com/Climb_and_Dive/?fbclid=IwAR0wxqiBZNI9x9bxpHJQJImJiuBe0froxsrsUwXNtd_GKrlOwiGQkaj1J7E&mibextid=Zxz2cZ

I am a big fan of the KR Timer.  The Climb and Dive Timer appears to be similar to the KR in that they both have a connection to the motor leads to sense motor RPMs. This allows the use of a cheep ESC. One that does not have constant RPM control built in. However the Climb and Dive Timer has an onboard accelerometer provides a programmable active boost in power during a climb as well as a decrease in power in a dive.  If this works it should give the Climb and Dive Timer an edge in performance.  The KR timer uses a program stick to program and is easy to program.  The Climb and Dive Timer is programed via an app on a smart phone.

Anyway as time goes on I will pass along what I learn about the Climb and Dive Timer as I build, program and fly this unit.

To start with lets look at what came in the package.  See photo Dsc_7532.jpg  The package contained two PCBs, 3 header pin connectors, and a JST connector with cable.
Title: Re: Climb And Dive Timer Revue
Post by: John Rist on January 21, 2023, 10:52:19 AM
Assembling the parts of the Climb and Dive controller.

First step was to down load and print the assembly instructions.  They can be found on the left side of the screen at https://circuitflyer.com/Climb_and_Dive/?fbclid=IwAR0wxqiBZNI9x9bxpHJQJImJiuBe0froxsrsUwXNtd_GKrlOwiGQkaj1J7E&mibextid=Zxz2cZ
Under Assembly.

I have good setup for soldering PCBs.  It consists of a temperature controlled soldering iron and rosin core solder.  One must have a small tipped soldering iron for this job.  A soldering gun is not the tool for this one.  See DSC_7537.jpg for a picture of my setup.

Per the instructions the next step is to solder the 5 pin right angle header to the PCB.  Observe closely the correct orientation of the connector per the instruction picture.  I held the connector in place with an alligator clip and then soldered the 5 pins.  See DSC_7536.jpg. 

Finally you assemble the two PCBs and the two 7 pin headers.  Once again the instructions pictures are very clear.  Make sure you assemble everything per the pictures.  My first attempt to solder this assembly was to hold it together with alligator clips.  Things had slipped and I managed to plug a couple of the holes in the bottom PCB.  I managed to clear the holes with a de-soldering tool.  Once again this is small PCB work and some skill is required.  On my next attempt I held the assembly together with a rubber band.  I then soldered the 4 corner pins on both sides of the two PCBs.  I removed the rubber band and soldered the rest of the pins on both top and bottom.  See picture DCS_7540.jpg and DCS_7542.  I cleaned the residual flux off with alcohol.

Final step is to clip off all of the remaining pins except the touch pins.  Do this per the instruction picture.  As I have stated over and over the instructions are clear and the pictures are easy to followed.  The Climb and Dive is now ready to install in an aircraft.  See DSC_7543.jpg
 
Title: Re: Climb And Dive Timer Revue
Post by: Paul Taylor on January 23, 2023, 05:30:01 PM
Thanks John.
I got one ordered today. Looking forward to your flight report. 👍🏼
Title: Re: Climb And Dive Timer Revue
Post by: bob whitney on January 23, 2023, 06:13:14 PM
Lets program the whole flight and leave the Gassers home
Title: Re: Climb And Dive Timer Revue
Post by: Dave Rigotti on January 23, 2023, 06:24:29 PM
Bob,
You are amazing!  Programmers won't EVER get dizzy, unlike us.....


Lets program the whole flight and leave the Gassers home
Title: Re: Climb And Dive Timer Revue
Post by: John Rist on January 24, 2023, 08:30:45 AM
I decided to install my Climb and Dive timer in one of my Cavaliers.  Even though the Cavalier is a profile ship all of the electronics and the battery are under a hatch cover.  I have 3 Cavaliers.  This is the oldest one and I had removed the KR timer for use in another ship. See DCN_7549

I was able to orient the Climb and Dive timer per the instruction sheet by adding a 1/16” plywood platform.  That is pins facing forward and the unit facing the pilot.  The JST connector leads were connected to two of the motor leads by inserting them into the female half of the bullet connector.  The male half of the connector was then inserted into female trapping JST wire in place.  I have done this in the past with the KR timer motor lead and it eliminates the need to solder this connection. The JST connector leads sense the motor RPMs and do not carry heavy current. Therefore the above way of connecting the works well. See DCN_7551.

In order to see the LED and be able to get to the touch pin I cut a hole in the hatch cover.  I also extended the length of the touch pin to make it easier to access through the cover hole. See DSC_7553

I did an initial test run with the prop removed.  Every thing seemed to work as it should.  Next I will set up the Bluefruit Connect app on my smart phone and finish setting up my Climb and Dive timer.  More to come as time goes on.
Title: Re: Climb And Dive Timer Revue
Post by: Frank Donnelly on January 24, 2023, 01:05:31 PM
I received the timer last night. It was really easy to assemble. I used a 25 watt iron and had it built in about 10 minutes. The instructions are very clear and comprehensive. I programmed it using the app via Bluetooth and did some bench testing. I have included a video of my testing. Next step is to get it mounted on a plane and do some actual flight testing.

https://youtu.be/R6kVJfvh2MY
Title: Re: Climb And Dive Timer Revue
Post by: Paul Taylor on January 24, 2023, 01:50:48 PM
Frank this is a great video and very informative. Thanks for thanking the time.
👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼
Title: Re: Climb And Dive Timer Revue
Post by: Brent Williams on January 24, 2023, 01:54:27 PM
Frank, did you perform a bench check to also verify that it accounts for inverted flight and an accompanying  throttle increase based on the outboard wing roll?
Title: Re: Climb And Dive Timer Revue
Post by: Tim Stagg on January 24, 2023, 02:25:02 PM
Frank,

Thanks for explaining everything, interested in hearing your progress in flight testing and what your thoughts are in relation to our other timer

Tim
Title: Re: Climb And Dive Timer Revue
Post by: Frank Donnelly on January 24, 2023, 02:29:40 PM
Brent,
Good call! I did not test that with this timer. I did make that test some months ago on the Fiorotti timer, and it does account for being inverted. In other words when inverted, and the outboard wing rolls up, the RPMs increase. With that being said, when I get a chance I will perform that test on the Climb and Dive timer and post my findings. I would bet that it works the same way as the Fiorotti. If not then it would be a no go for flying the pattern.
Frank
Title: Re: Climb And Dive Timer Revue
Post by: Frank Donnelly on January 24, 2023, 02:44:25 PM
Tim, I'm looking forward to flight testing this but I can tell you right now that my favorite feature in the Fiorotti timer is the G Force setting. Getting that right, just nails the line tension in the overheads even in windy situations. I would not give that up. I'm using a KR Governor in my profile stunters. I'm looking at this Climb and Dive timer as a possible replacement for that one. I have had some issues with the KR shutting off when you least expect it. In addition The KR doesn't provide the accelerator driven RPM compensation.
Frank
Title: Re: Climb And Dive Timer Revue
Post by: CircuitFlyer on January 24, 2023, 03:15:30 PM
Great video, Frank!  Thanks for doing that.

The active timer output is based on the rate of change so it doesn't matter if you start from upright or inverted. 
Title: Re: Climb And Dive Timer Revue
Post by: John Rist on January 24, 2023, 03:29:56 PM
Frank, I am a little weak when it comes to Apps and computer programing.  Thanks for a great video.  It answered a bunch of questions I had,   CLP**  I live in Huntsville Alabama so I should be able to get in a flight test soon.
Title: Re: Climb And Dive Timer Revue
Post by: Frank Donnelly on January 24, 2023, 04:35:32 PM
Paul,
Thank you for all the work you did in developing this. Can't wait to go out a try it.

Brent,
Before I read Paul's post I ran the inverted test. Just as Paul stated it works fine.

John,
I'm glad you found it helpful. I'm looking forward to your flight testing results.
Title: Re: Climb And Dive Timer Revue
Post by: John Rist on February 02, 2023, 05:49:52 PM
I installed a start/stop pushbutton on my setup today.  I found the following.  First of all, if you do not have good soldering skills it is a little tricky to add a push button.  If the two pushbutton pins were adjutant one could use a JST connector to attach it.  If you planning to use a start/stop pushbutton you might want to leave these two pins long.  That way you could wrap the pushbutton lead around the pin and solder.  This would reduce the chance of a solder bridge between pins.  Next I found that to start the timer you must hold the button until the motor burps. A short push will not start the motor.  After the motor is running a quick push stops the motor instantly.  And lastly the pushbutton will not put the timer in the program mod.  Only the touch pin will do this.  So all in all the pushbutton works.  If you are going to install a Climb and Dive timer in a full body aircraft a pushbutton may be a good option.  In a full body you won't be able to see the LED while flying the aircraft but I don't think this is a big deal.   #^
Title: Re: Climb And Dive Timer Revue
Post by: Ken Culbertson on February 02, 2023, 07:15:39 PM
If you are going to install a Climb and Dive timer in a full body aircraft a pushbutton may be a good option.  In a full body you won't be able to see the LED while flying the aircraft but I don't think this is a big deal.   #^
It looks like the LED is positioned so that a light tube could be used to make it visible.  I am using one on my Fiorotti and it makes the LED about twice as visible as it is without it.  Just a thought.

Ken
Title: Re: Climb And Dive Timer Revue
Post by: John Rist on February 02, 2023, 10:19:40 PM
It looks like the LED is positioned so that a light tube could be used to make it visible.  I am using one on my Fiorotti and it makes the LED about twice as visible as it is without it.  Just a thought.

Ken
Good point. Would like to see pictures and what do you use for a light tube?
Title: Re: Climb And Dive Timer Revue
Post by: CircuitFlyer on February 03, 2023, 07:23:32 AM
The optional pushbutton switch is installed in parallel with the capacitive touch pin.  Both inputs operate all functions. 

John, the switch you are using may have a little too much 'bounce'.  All mechanical switch contacts will demonstrate intermittent contact for the first few milliseconds of operation.  Some of these quick high to low transitions may be getting through and causing the issue.  I just ran some tests and the pushbutton I use works just fine.  I will add a little more 'de-bounce' into the code for the next update.  In the meantime, you could try a different switch to see if that helps.

Title: Re: Climb And Dive Timer Revue
Post by: Ken Culbertson on February 03, 2023, 08:55:45 AM
Good point. Would like to see pictures and what do you use for a light tube?
I will take some pix when I get to the office of both the tube I found and the assembly and add them to the post later today.  Basically, I found a Lexan tube with the same ID as the LED and cut off a washer like section to put over the LED.  I painted the outside rim white (I didn't have any chrome or silver) and glued that into the plane so that when I mounted the timer it covered the LED.  The tube traps the side light from the LED and makes it glow and appear nearly double the diameter with the same intensity.  I have very mild dyslexia (it was flying stunt as a kid that taught me how to overcome it).  Searching for that tiny light at 65' was causing hunting.  I had just bought one of those light tube camera's and it hit me.   I am sure that if I searched enough, I could find some true light tube with mirror walls that is small enough, but the Lexan (which has the transparent properties of glass) did the trick.

Ken 
Title: Re: Climb And Dive Timer Revue
Post by: Ken Culbertson on February 03, 2023, 11:05:08 AM
Good point. Would like to see pictures and what do you use for a light tube?
Here they are and a link to a YouTube showing it in action.  Note the glow around the LED.  It is very visible from 65', even when the plane is up-sun. Sorry about the shoddy finishing, it is just a fully monokoted profile.  It has one of those 10' finishes!  Flys great.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/M-acFXj5XIw

Apologies for the junk after the video.  YouTube decided to make it a "short" and you can't edit/crop them.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0B9G1RBFD?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details

FYI:  I see that I have actually used Acrylic.  It is not as glass like as polycarb but it is very close.  I thought I was ordering Lexan - my bad.


Ken
Title: Re: Climb And Dive Timer Revue
Post by: Paul Taylor on February 03, 2023, 03:43:54 PM
I installed a start/stop pushbutton on my setup today.  I found the following.  First of all, if you do not have good soldering skills it is a little tricky to add a push button.  If the two pushbutton pins were adjutant one could use a JST connector to attach it.  If you planning to use a start/stop pushbutton you might want to leave these two pins long.  That way you could wrap the pushbutton lead around the pin and solder.  This would reduce the chance of a solder bridge between pins.  Next I found that to start the timer you must hold the button until the motor burps. A short push will not start the motor.  After the motor is running a quick push stops the motor instantly.  And lastly the pushbutton will not put the timer in the program mod.  Only the touch pin will do this.  So all in all the pushbutton works.  If you are going to install a Climb and Dive timer in a full body aircraft a pushbutton may be a good option.  In a full body you won't be able to see the LED while flying the aircraft but I don't think this is a big deal.   #^

Good info John
Can you post a picture of the pins you’re suggesting on keeping long to connect the push button wires to?

I got my timer and will get in together in the coming week.
Thanks
Title: Re: Climb And Dive Timer Revue
Post by: Brent Williams on February 03, 2023, 04:14:17 PM
Here is the info from the manual on how to wire up the optional remote push-button switch.
Title: Re: Climb And Dive Timer Revue
Post by: John Rist on February 03, 2023, 05:08:51 PM
Good info John
Can you post a picture of the pins you’re suggesting on keeping long to connect the push button wires to?

I got my timer and will get in together in the coming week.
Thanks
Brent nailed it.  (PE**)
Title: Re: Climb And Dive Timer Revue
Post by: Paul Taylor on February 03, 2023, 10:05:59 PM
Thanks guys. 😉
Title: Re: Climb And Dive Timer Revue
Post by: Donald Main on February 04, 2023, 01:56:13 PM
Great info guys! I bought one and think it will be my next electric PA ship.
Title: Re: Climb And Dive Timer Revue
Post by: Mike Greb on February 08, 2023, 11:43:46 AM
I have assembled mine, and when the motor starts up it spools up and then shuts down, I have tried three different esc's and they all do the same thingk
Title: Re: Climb And Dive Timer Revue
Post by: John Rist on February 08, 2023, 01:13:06 PM
I have assembled mine, and when the motor starts up it , I have tried three different esc's and they all do the same thingk
When you start the Climb and Dive timer by touching the touch pin the motor does spools up and then shuts down.  Then when the set start delay runs out the motor starts and runs normally.  The initial motor burp is just to let you know the timer has been started.  If this is not you problem the other possibility is that the two wire Jst connector is not hooked up properly.  This two lead connector has to be connected to two of the three motor wires.  The Climb and Dive timer uses this connection to measure motor RPMs.  If RPMs are not correct it turns itself off.  IE it can detect a prop strike and turn things off before you fry a motor or ESC.  If these two wires are not connected the Climb and Dive timer thinks the motor has a fault and shouts down.   D>K  Also you may want to check to make sure you don't have a solder bridge shorting out the two JST connector pins.
Title: Re: Climb And Dive Timer Revue
Post by: CircuitFlyer on February 08, 2023, 02:56:23 PM
The short run at low RPM to indicate the start of the delay countdown lasts for 1.5 seconds.  If you don't see this blip of the throttle try calibrating the throttle range on the ESC.  That usually helps.

One other thing to remember - If after the delay countdown is complete and the motor starts for takeoff but only runs for 6 to 8 seconds it is also possible you have set the governed RPM too high.  If you use an RC transmitter/receiver (or a servo tester) and ran your system absolutely flat out at max throttle then measured the RPM at, say, 9,900 for example.  Then you install the timer and set the RPM to 10,000, guess what, it ain't gonna happen no matter how hard you try.  Your governor set-point must be below the maximum possible RPM of the system.  Also, be sure to leave a couple of hundred RPM of headroom for the active output to function properly.

The timer will initiate an auto-shutdown if it cannot reach the governed RPM setting.  After the auto-shutdown the LED will flash red 2 times every 3 seconds to indicate why it shutdown.  There is no sense in attempting a flight if the timer can't govern the RPM, the prop strike protection may not work nor will the active output work properly.

Hope that helps.
Title: Re: Climb And Dive Timer Revue
Post by: Mike Greb on February 09, 2023, 08:07:33 PM
I am starting to get this figured out.  I am trying to use this on a model that is intended to be quite a bit faster than most stunt fliers would want to run it.  Just doing bench testing now.
Title: Re: Climb And Dive Timer Revue
Post by: Randy Meathrell on February 12, 2023, 01:02:48 PM
I have flown my Climb and Dive on an electric Flight Streak and it works as described. I had a few issues getting the C&D to work correctly caused by my own ineptitude. Paul Emmerson is very patient and talked me through every one of my issues. I am a new (old) C/L flyer trying to learn acrobatics again at the age of 77. Learning a lot and having FUN!

Randy
Title: Re: Climb And Dive Timer Revue
Post by: CircuitFlyer on February 27, 2023, 09:54:22 AM
It's been a while since I shipped the first units.  Anyone else have some feedback from the flying circle?  I haven't received many questions or issues so I'll assume thats a good thing.  Please let me know how the timer is working for you.  If you think the program needs some tweeks I can work on a software update.
Title: Re: Climb And Dive Timer Revue
Post by: Crist Rigotti on February 27, 2023, 12:54:08 PM
Paul,
I have been working on other projects.  I'll get to using your timer in a couple of months.
Thanks again for developing this.
Title: Re: Climb And Dive Timer Revue
Post by: John Rist on February 27, 2023, 01:25:12 PM
As soon as I get a break in the weather on a day I don't have a doctor's appointment I will put mine in the air.
Title: Re: Climb And Dive Timer Revue
Post by: Brent Williams on February 27, 2023, 04:28:14 PM
It's very much winter still here in northern Utah.  Perhaps some testing can happen later in March.
Title: Re: Climb And Dive Timer Revue
Post by: Donald R Olson on June 28, 2023, 11:55:45 AM
It's been a while since I shipped the first units.  Anyone else have some feedback from the flying circle?  I haven't received many questions or issues so I'll assume thats a good thing.  Please let me know how the timer is working for you.  If you think the program needs some tweeks I can work on a software update.

I’ve been using your timers on two of my planes and on a thrust/wattage test stand that I built. The timer works great on both planes. One of the planes is a Legacy with an E flight motor and the other is a 50” wingspan T38 I scratch built. It has a 28-26 Badass motor. Both use ESC from hobby king. Your timers work as advertised. The reason I felt compelled to respond was to say I also use one on a test stand I built. The strike protection saved my fingertip from being cut off! I was testing different prop sizes for the aforementioned Legacy. After testing three different props I switched to a fourth but didn’t realize or even check but it was a pusher, so the thrust was pushing the motor backwards away from the scale. To make matters worse, instead of pulling away from the stand, I tried to brace the stand from tipping backwards. (VERY STUPID). The prop struck the tip of mt finger, cutting a small bit off the tip. The second strike was about 3/4 inch down my finger. It the timer hadn’t cut the power it would have cut off the whole end of it. Instead, it just broke the skin and stopped. I usually use a servo tester to control the motor. I am very glad I put it on there. I will be using more of the Climb and Dives in the future.
As a side note I plan on doing my next big design with servoless retracts. I’ve been researching using another board with this type of accelerometer that can be set to retract the gear at a set time after the motor starts and extend the gear prior to the motor cut off time.
A big thank you for your timer.
Title: Re: Climb And Dive Timer Revue
Post by: CircuitFlyer on June 28, 2023, 07:35:58 PM
Ouch!  I had intended for that feature to protect the electrical equipment but if it also protects the human equipment all the better.  I hope you have now added a stop to prevent the stand from pivoting backwards.  I setup my test stand for the prop to push onto the motor.  Less chance for a loose prop to fly across the workshop.  Yep, learned that one the hard way too.  Reverse pitch props and RH threads don't always work well together.

Glad you like the timer.
Title: Re: Climb And Dive Timer Revue
Post by: Randy Meathrell on July 02, 2023, 12:17:47 PM
D Olson, I am a BIG fan of the T-38. Could you post a Picture and some specs of the model?

TNX  Randy
Title: Re: Climb And Dive Timer Revue
Post by: Donald R Olson on July 05, 2023, 11:12:39 AM
D Olson, I am a BIG fan of the T-38. Could you post a Picture and some specs of the model?

TNX  Randy

I can post some pictures for sure. I just have to take some. It's a profile version of this plane I found on outer zone. T-38 Talon Stunt (oz4828). I really like the looks of the T 38.  I am currently working on a full fuselage plane right now. I will post some stuff on both planes once I can get some pictures taken.