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Electric Stunt => Gettin all AMP'ed up! => Topic started by: Jim Thomerson on May 17, 2007, 02:54:52 PM

Title: CG shift as fuel is used up - How?
Post by: Jim Thomerson on May 17, 2007, 02:54:52 PM
I've seen learned expositions on how the CG of an IC powered stunter shifts rearward as fuel is used up.  Supposedly the pattern is set up with the more difficult maneuvers toward the end to allow the flier to take advantage of the more rearward CG and thus more maneuverable airplane.  I presume you electric guys want the same effect.  Do the batteries get enough lighter as they lose electrons? Or do you have to have some mechanical way of gradually moving them back?  I haven't seen any discussion of this matter.  LL~ S?P
Title: Re: CG shift as fuel is used up - How?
Post by: linheart smith on May 17, 2007, 03:48:18 PM
My electric seems to hit more bugs than my I.C. airplanes so the electric plane actually weighs more at the end of the flight CG more forward. 

linheart
Title: Re: CG shift as fuel is used up - How?
Post by: Mike Palko on May 17, 2007, 03:54:06 PM
I'm not sure if this is a serious question or not, but I don't see any advantage to burning fuel to change the CG. I think everyone will tell you no CG change is an advantage!! Some have gone as far as to design the tank location as close to the CG as possible. Fly an electric airplane and see how consistant it is. If you were kidding, you got me.  :-[  

Mike
Title: Re: CG shift as fuel is used up - How?
Post by: Alan Hahn on May 17, 2007, 03:58:39 PM
Jim,
Of course the batteries get lighter as the flight progresses. By this I refer to

E=mc2. where "c" is the speed of light, ~(3*108) m/s.

For example, my Super Clown uses ~1800 mAhr's of current at an average battery voltage ~10.5V during the flight. This equates to an energy usage of 18.9 Watt-hrs, or 68000 Joules of energy.

So the decrease in mass would be (solving for m in the equation) 68000 J/(3*108)2 or about  1 nanogram.

I was wondering why the plane felt so sensitive in the cloverleaf! H^^

No electrons were created or destroyed for this post.
Title: Re: CG shift as fuel is used up - How?
Post by: Jim Thomerson on May 17, 2007, 08:12:20 PM
1% serious, 99% kidding.  Thanks Alan.
Title: Re: CG shift as fuel is used up - How?
Post by: Mike Palko on May 17, 2007, 09:12:39 PM
Good answer Alan!!!  ;D
Title: Re: CG shift as fuel is used up - How?
Post by: phil c on May 25, 2007, 06:36:01 PM
Actually, batteries dont' work that way.  All of  the electrons stay in the system, they just move from one place to another- from the anode to the cathode of the battery, and into and out of the lithium ions trapped in the anode to the lithium carbonate trapped in the cathode.  The lithium ions complete the circuit by moving through the polymer from the anode to the cathode.

http://www.agmbatteries.com/chemistry.asp
Title: Re: CG shift as fuel is used up - How?
Post by: Alan Hahn on May 25, 2007, 10:37:15 PM
Phil,
I don't know if you are refering to my post, but as I say at the end, no electrons were created or destroyed! That's conservation of charge! So you are agreeing with me, and I with you.

Actually, and I am serious, the mass change is due to the fact that energy does weigh something!
Title: Re: CG shift as fuel is used up - How?
Post by: Jim Oliver on May 26, 2007, 06:53:35 PM
Orient the battery such that, during discharge, the electrons move from the front of the battery to the rear of the battery.

Stark simplicity!! H^^

Jim
Title: Re: CG shift as fuel is used up - How?
Post by: phil c on May 28, 2007, 07:32:42 PM
Alan,  E=mc2 describes what happens when mass is converted to energy.  A battery does not convert any mass.  Shades of cold fusion!  In a battery chemical potential energy is turned into electricity with no loss of mass, not even a nanogram.
Title: Re: CG shift as fuel is used up - How?
Post by: Dick Fowler on May 29, 2007, 05:09:50 AM
Phil is right.

(EDIT to remove the boring parts)
Title: Re: CG shift as fuel is used up - How?
Post by: Jim Thomerson on June 01, 2007, 09:18:23 PM
A chemist colleague once told me that every change of energy in a chemical reaction involves a change in mass.  Isn't a charged electron heavier than a discharged electron?  Isn't it a matter that electrons leave the battery heavy and return light, to pick up more mass before making another circuit?
Title: Re: CG shift as fuel is used up - How?
Post by: Igor Burger on June 02, 2007, 11:44:40 AM
E=mc2 describes what happens when mass is converted to energy.  A battery does not convert any mass.

That equation says that both sides are equivalent. Means any change of energy means change of mass. Does not matter if it is nuclear weapon, chemical reaction or just spring compression.