What is the max. temp. rating for the CC ice 50? On Tues. I managed to hit 175 (according to the log file ) with an ambient temp of 80 (roughly, 31 degree C actual and I'm not sure of the conversion ). Note this was a peak temp and it was running at an average of 145 for the two flights- 140 being the norm regardless of the surrounding temp. Also for the first time I hit 100% "Motor Power Out" which isn't good from what I've been able to understand by reading through the forum.

 Stats of what I'm using:
   plane: 58oz.
             576 sq in. ( yes heavy, but a good test mule as the setup will be in a plane of similar weight(55 oz), but higher wing area)
             profile (converted .46 size, flys better now)
  motor: Turnigy: SK3548 1100kv
    (please don't say get a Plettenburg or other high priced spread, as I have to do this on an extremely tight budget. The motor was picked as I do prefer the results of a low pitch prop and it's ability to maintain constant speed for all the types of motors I own- Elec, Nitro and my fav. diesel.)
   Prop: APC 13x4 cut down to 12x4- less temp and stronger pull than the 11x5.5 ( from the handle end )
   Esc: CC 50 Lite set to:
      Gov mode
      Gov Gain- 32
      init. speed up- 6
      Head Speed  - 8
      Brake Strength- 100%
      Brake Delay-    .5 sec
      Brake Ramp-   Fast
      Motor Start Power- 65
      Motor timing- 5
      PWM- 12KHz
      Firmware:V3.20
  Timer: Will Hubin fm6 with remote start and fine rpm setting
  Battery: Turnigy 4s1p 3.6ah ( again economics of my situation )
  Lines: - .015x62'
 History- Started with completely stock settings and a 11x5.5 set at 10500 rpm and had poor tension, no end warning and the plane wouldn't do anything without sinking. Changed the PWM to 12 KHz, and the motor sounded happier, but flying wise no change. Upped the rpm to 10800 and slight increase in performance with lap times starting to get below 4.8 or 9. Changed up to the 12x4 @ 11300 and got better tension, end warning and the sinking almost disappeared. Upped the rpm to 11500 and much better. Started to play with the gain by going straight to 28 ( previously viewed high mark ) the motor sounded quieter and better pull in the vertical. went up twice more, each with an improvement. Now I'm stymied.


 This brings me to my confusion about the governor gain and it's relation to performance and heat. According to previous posts, you want to get the gain as high as possible until the motor surges while attempting to maintain rpm and then back it off a step or two. So far there has been no surging at all and the response has increased noticeably with each step ( 2 steps at a time, with the last being 32). Now I'm noticing that the largest gain setting that has been posted is 21.- question: has the basic premise been changed or did I over shoot and goof it somewhere? The only change from the last time I flew the plane was to increase the H.S. change rate from 6 to 8. That setting was enough to break the upper spar (wing didn't come off thankfully) but the ESC temp was only 135 av. 140 max on a 28 C day.
 Next Question- Why would you set the timing to 0 if you are after efficiency? According to the CC link, that reduces temp (good) and rpm (not so good)

I'm starting to get confused by my results and what has been written in the past, and would appreciate some current (no pun) thoughts on how people go about setting up their systems.
 Thank- you in Advance
   Ron.

Firstly, thank-you and secondly if my immediate replies are sporadic, it's because I'll be away from a computer for the next few days. I'll check in as soon as possible- I want this fixed.

Hi Ron,
It might take us a while (or a few postings) to work through this, but here goes ... Please forgive me if I get too basic in a couple of places, but this is a good excuse to explain some things.

First, I will ignore the temperature and Advance issues for the moment.

I see that you are flying a plane that is fairly close to 60 ounces with relatively small props. You have also been fighting a "sinking" problem which I assume means that the plane lacks drive coming out of corners, especially when they lead into climbs. Only now that you are up to a 12-4 are you starting to see things get good, and the ESC is actually hitting 100% of battery voltage to the motor, which means you don't have the combination of prop pitch/battery voltage/and Kv right to fly the lap times you want. You need to up the pitch a bit. Can you fit one of those nifty APC 13-4.5 pushers on your plane? If the landing gear does not allow this, then get a 12-6p and adjust down to the low 9000 RPM range.

Iff (and only if) a cold, old battery on a cold day resulted in momentary 100% "motor power out" events leading up to the top of the hourglass and both upper loops of the clover, then I'd say it's okay, but what you have is different.

To begin with: constant RPM is only half the battle. If you had both 11-4 and a 13-4 props and had them set to the "same" RPM so as to fly the same lap times then both will run the same power out of the battery (in Watts) for level flight. <<The more learned in the crowd will note that the smaller prop will actually have to be set for a percent or two more RPM due to the increased slippage of the smaller diameter, but this is still true as an approximation.>> If the plane slowed down just 3 or 4 miles per hour from level lap speed, the governor will increase the voltage sent to the motor and the current will increase. Here's the kicker: the increase in power to the motor will be dramatically higher in order to maintain RPM for the larger diameter prop, under the condition of the 3 or 4 MPH slowdown. The same is true for a same diameter and higher pitch prop at lower RPM, but the effect is nowhere as good as more diameter.

This dramatic increase in power delivered in order to maintain RPM versus airspeed is the holy grail. (Just watch out for the Killer Rabbit!)

I need to sign off for now, but will continue soon. In the meanwhile, I did not see where you told us how much battery capacity you actually use for a schedule and for how long you set the timer. I assume your ESC temps are Fahrenheit, and if so, then they are not worriesome, though the ESC can never be too cool.

Regards,
Dean P.

   Actually the sinking feeling went away with the larger ( 11 to 12 ) prop. It just seems to drive now- better than when it was glow- more confidence inspiring so to speak but still not quite there. I'll ask around again and see if someone wants to do a direct order from APC with me for the magical props (12 & 13 x 4.5P ). The Shops around here can't get them because their supplier won't stock them.
   I'll try increasing the pitch of the 12 up to 4.5, and compare it to a 'stock' 13x4- I just have the clearance.
 The battery is fairly new with 20 cycles on it, and it was broken in with 4 charge/ discharge cycles before use. I'm not sure what the actual capacity used will be as until I stop seeing this stuff happening I've been doing two flights of 2 min 45 sec each and leaving a good amount left over. I'll actually record the amps the next time I recharge. I've just been doing what the plane has been capable of before (first third of the pattern and a quick overhead 8 ) so that I can get a decent idea of where I'm at without destroying anything.
  How dramatic of an increase are you talking about? I'm showing 38 level and getting up to 47 during extended vert ( reverse wing over and purposely large squares with tighter than ness. corners ) The overhead ( from what I can see on the graph ) doesn't pull as much.
    As for the Rabbit- What's he going to do, nibble my butt? I'm still trying to figure out why there's a penguin on the telly.
 Later,
         Ron

My nephew recenly heard from somone who was recording tempertures over 200 deg. He convinced him to relocate the ICE into what used to be the pipe tunnel (phew)  Realisticall I think it is OK as long as the ESC is not in a dead air zone.

I keep hearing about a lot of folks pushing hardet to get the governor gain as high as possible - I believe that is a mistake.  Governor Gain is not a max/min setting, it is a "Nominal is best" setting.  SO where is Nominal?  Good question.   I am running a custom setting of "10" with is somewhat lower than the LOW default setting.   Get a nice bump of power when I need it and do not do any "tap dancing" in level flight.  I have not had cause to explore this any furhter, but that is one of the TUIT's

My simplistic thoughts are this:  I think the higher the gain is set - the more sensitive it is - and you get more current spikes.  Current is heat.  Contrary to Castles advice I also run PWM at 16hz instead of 12mhz.  I swear I could tell the difference but I am probably fooling myself.  More but smaller power on spikes MIGHT end up on either the hotter or cooler side of the equation!

Finally, Dennis ...
Something on which you and I disagree!

Sure there's a tradeoff between heating/efficiency and added torque in the interesting places.
It's kinda like putting a big engine and monster brakes into a car and using them to best effect: sure enough you'll scorch the rubber right off the critter but in the meanwhile it'll go like stink! I'm just willing to buy tires. Your mileage may vary

later, Compadre
  Dean

In my unabashed naiveté about what one should use for either motors or ESC's I can't help but think that using the bulletproof Plettenberg motor and the Schulze 18.46K F2B ESC which requires absolutely no adjustment to acheive superior results (as evidenced by Mr. Walker) and is available for the paltry price of $79.00 at Icare RC is not the cheapest and best solution.

Terry.

Ron,
The better flying setups show a 2:1 ratio between uphill currents and downhill currents, and easily 1-1/2:1 from climb to level flight. Guys ... can anyone out there point to an easy to read data logger plot (either CC or EagleTree) that shows this for a full schedule?

Ideally, you need enough pitch so that the peak motor drive percentages are around 90% at the end of the flight. The  battery consumption and lowest voltage readings for full schedule will be most helpful so that we can get an idea of where you are at.
later,
Dean

  Okay, then when I look at the graph from the log file, I should see a "large" spike in the wing over or squares (base of the valley to the top of the peak)? Am I looking at the ripple setting or at the amp drawn setting?
 This weekend I'll get one of the guys to fly the pig through the pattern -if possible, as the plane was designed by someone else to be a beginner/sport stunter. I'm using it as it closely approxes the weight and size of my next plane- and let you know what it is using during the flight. Once the props get here from APC (bloody shipping- anyone for a $25.00 13x4.5 P  ) , I can try that out. If I understand correctly; Even though the prop is larger in Dia. with more pitch, I should see the same or less draw from the pack? ( and with that less heat in the ESC, which is what started this post.)
 
 

My nephew recently heard from somone who was recording tempertures over 200 deg. He convinced him to relocate the ICE into what used to be the pipe tunnel (phew)  Realisticall I think it is OK as long as the ESC is not in a dead air zone.

I keep hearing about a lot of folks pushing hardet to get the governor gain as high as possible - I believe that is a mistake.  Governor Gain is not a max/min setting, it is a "Nominal is best" setting.  SO where is Nominal?  Good question.   I am running a custom setting of "10" with is somewhat lower than the LOW default setting.   Get a nice bump of power when I need it and do not do any "tap dancing" in level flight.  I have not had cause to explore this any furhter, but that is one of the TUIT's

My simplistic thoughts are this:  I think the higher the gain is set - the more sensitive it is - and you get more current spikes.  Current is heat.  Contrary to Castles advice I also run PWM at 16hz instead of 12mhz.  I swear I could tell the difference but I am probably fooling myself.  More but smaller power on spikes MIGHT end up on either the hotter or cooler side of the equation!

  Why did you go to a lower gain setting originally? This what I'm trying to comprehend. So far I haven't done the tap dance, however if there is a reason for a lower gain setting, I'm more than willing to see what effects are. From what I've read on previous posts (including some of your early posts), the gain was wanted to be set as high as possible without the tap dance. Once you hit it, you backed down a step. I am curious about the reasoning, especially since you are/ (were ? ) running Turnigys. Each setup will be different, but there is enough in common to use as a base point.

 Thanks again for the replies and help,
   Ron

Hi Ron
I do not think the motor BRAND makes a difference, but motor SIZE (especially slightly undersized or oversized) could matter.

I originally tried low gain on advice my Nephew got direct from Castle.  Very early on my Nephew had a case of the "buzzies", a conversation with the Castle folks at the 2009 Toledo RC show he got the advice to try the gain very low - like a "4"  I had that setting when I test flew the Mythbuster, decided it seemed a little flat.  I increased the value to "10" and it felt great.  I had no reason to change and have made that my standard setting ever since.  However that is the big hole in my reasoning, that I have not personally tested a full broad range of settings.  Aside from my nephew's experience, the only other thing I have to go on is the advice of pioneers like Rick Sawicki & Bob Branch, and the truism that I hear from a lit of folks  not getting the performance they expected when using the HIGH setting.

My rationale (soon to be supported or blown away by hard data) is to use an analogy to an IC engine.  I suggest that the Governor Gain setting behaves like the legendary 4-2-4 break where an IC engine runs rich in level flight, powers-up during a load then comes back to rest in level flight. If you start too rich there is not enough of a reaction.  If you start too lean then there is nothing left to give when you need it.  The corallary for ECL is:

* With no governor gain (or too low) the motor is at the mercy of the elements, it will likely sag trying to keep up with the loading and airspeed will fall off.  All you see is the motor's ability to keep up with the load, bigger motors will outperform little motors on a given prop.

* At LOW governor gain settings, the sensitivity of the governor response is subdued, but there is a solid "bump" under load.

* At MEDIUM governor gain settings the sensitivity of the governor is more pronounced, it takes much less a disturbance for the governor to react, so it can even react in level flight due to disturbances from wind gusts & such, but once it reacts there is nothing extra left for a climb.

* At HIGH governor gain settings the sensitivty is maximized, EVERY little disturbance gets a reaction, thus a puff of wind in level flight gets the same reaction as a vertical climb.  HOWEVER the system is at the mercy of the elements, it will likely sag trying to keep up with the loading and airspeed will fall off.  All you see is the motor's ability to keep up with the load, bigger motors will outperform little motors on a given prop.  This would explain what I have heard from many ECL'ers who are using HIGH governor trying to max out, and EVERY ONE of them is having trouble with speed falling off.

Thus I am gauging that the key parameter is REACTION and that (for opposite reasons) a too high governor gain setting behaves exactly like a too low setting.  If the above is true, then, the "best" (most noticable) setting is somewhere in between - maybe a low to medium gov setting.

I suggest every one get out their data loggers - and "assometers" and perform a test sequence that goes something like this:

About a 90 second flight profile flight profile:
* Take-off, 2 laps, Wingover, 1 lap, OVERLARGE IS Round Loops, 1 laps inverted, OS Round loops, overlarge Square 8
* Fly with gov gain set to HIGH, MEDIUM, LOW and Zero.
* Set data collection to max 10 pts/sec, use Excel to smooth data
* Just as important, listen to your "spidey sense" and feedback from the model as to which setting is the best.

This sound plausible?  Anyone have any thoughts pro or con?

  Looks like the ESC was on the way out. I went to the field on sunday and ATTEMPTED to get the motor running. First time a faint ( barely audible ) beep and the motor made a grinding sound while rotating back and forth about 1/4 of a turn. Shut that down very quickly, made sure the motor still spun correctly and wasn't hanging up some some where. Repluged it in and no beep this time. The motor didn't even rotate, just made the grinding noise. I figured I cooked the battery or motor, so I exchanged the ESC with a buddies and everything worked great. Then to make sure it was the ESC, we tried it on his plane. His motor didn't even make a noise: conclusion... somehow I baked an ESC ( and no marinade in sight  )  Now to figure out what caused it. The last time it worked was when I had the problems that caused me to start this post.
 Later,
   Ron
p.s. The ESC had a total run time of 50 min, mostly in the air and no ground run longer than 45 sec. Also the max amps through it on any graph was 47 amps. Thought I was being careful.