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Author Topic: Brodak 1/2A power system  (Read 1981 times)

Offline Mark Mc

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Brodak 1/2A power system
« on: October 04, 2017, 02:41:37 PM »
My son wanted me to convert his Skyray to electric, so I decided to do the Brodak 1/2A system.  Brodak’s system is:

Arrowind  2205/22 motor
Arowind 12A ESC
FM-0e timer
APC 6x5.5 prop
850mAh 2S battery

I ordered the motor, esc, and timer from Brodak, and used some 2S batteries I already had.  My setup is:

Arrowind  2205/22 motor
Arowind 12A ESC
FM-0c timer (so I can set the time I want)
APC 6x5.5 prop
1000mAh 2S battery

I mounted everything and charged up the batteries.  But, testing it out this morning, I only got 8,400 RPM out of it.  8,400?  That’s all?  I tried all four batteries, and I swapped out the timer for a 2.4GHz receiver for throttle.  I don’t have any other ESCs with the same JST connector so I can check out the ESC.  What RPM is the motor supposed to turn with the stock Brodak setup?

Mark

Offline phil c

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Re: Brodak 1/2A power system
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2017, 03:00:01 PM »
If you can, estimate the amps the motor is pulling.  If you don't have a watt meter you can use the charging current and time to measure how much gets put back in the battery.  Then multiply the volts, about 7.4 by the amps to get the estimated watts.  100-140 watts is a reasonable range for half A size planes on 35ft lines.

8500 rpm does seem a little slow.
phil Cartier

Offline Mark Mc

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Re: Brodak 1/2A power system
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2017, 03:20:48 PM »
I dug out another 12A speed controller, soldered on a JST connector and tried again.  Still no dice.  It’s not the Arrowind speed controller.

Okay, looking at the motor, it’s supposed to be a KV of 1650.  On fresh batteries at 7.4 volts, that should give just about 12,200 RPM not accounting for voltage drop.    So at 8400 RPM @ 7.4 volts the motor is giving me about 1100KV.  If the motor was truly a 1650 KV motor, and it’s turning at 8400 RPM, then the batteries would have to be at 5 volts, or 2.5 volts/cell, which would be way below the speed controller low voltage cutoff.

My last test will be to solder a JST connector to a 3S 850mAh battery I have and see what I get for RPM.  If the motor is acting like an 1100KV motor, I should get the 12,200 RPM that I should have seen in the first place. 

Phil, I do have a watt meter, but it has Deans connectors on it.  I suppose I should make up some leads to use it with JST connectors if I'm going to get into 1/2A sized electrics.

Off to do some soldering and charging.

Offline Russell

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Re: Brodak 1/2A power system
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2017, 03:55:45 PM »
I have an Arrowind and it's the last one. The first one from Brocraps was defective so returned it for a replacement. The first thing I noticed on both out of the box is the poor machining and alignment.


Offline Mark Mc

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Re: Brodak 1/2A power system
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2017, 07:23:47 PM »
Okay, I made up jumpers to use my watt meter with JST connectors.  When the watt meter showed 7.0 volts, the RPM was 8040 RPM.  That gives a KV of about 1150.  Then I tried it on another motor that was listed as 1600KV.  I'm still getting around 8300 RPM.

I am totally confused, and my brain is about to explode.  Somebody please help me....

Offline TDM

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Re: Brodak 1/2A power system
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2017, 07:48:49 PM »
Maybe you are looking in the wrong place and the timer doesn't give 100% power comand.
You can check that out with a servo tester and see if it goes flat out to proper rpm when you commanded full poer
If it doesn't then I would put the fault in the motor. Volt x Kv slud give rpm.
Measure volt in battery then multiply with Kv rating give max on the servo tester and read actual rpn
Compare and draw conclusions
Each goal you meet is a moment of happiness
Happiness is the harmony between what you think and what you do. Mahatma Gandhi

Offline Mark Mc

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Re: Brodak 1/2A power system
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2017, 08:00:56 PM »
Thanks for responding.  I did think about the timer being the issue, so I put in a 2.4GHz receiver and gave 100% throttle using that and still got the low RPM.  I also plugged the ESC into an E-Flight control line timer turned all the way up and got the same results.

I understand I'll get some loss of efficiency through the various components.  But this is equating to a 33% loss of efficiency on two different speed controllers, two different motors, and four different batteries.  I guess I'll try different pitch props to see what I get next.

Mark

Offline Target

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Re: Brodak 1/2A power system
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2017, 11:56:50 PM »
That 1650kv is a no load speed per volt. You might try a 5.5" diameter prop, or a lower pitch.
Regards,
Chris
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Offline TDM

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Re: Brodak 1/2A power system
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2017, 06:37:53 AM »
At his point I am questioning the motor. Something is not right with it. I have no data or information of what happens when wingdings in a motor do not work but would be interesting to find out.
Perhaps you can go to 3S setup and use this for now till you get a better motor.
Turnigy makes round cells that are rated 270, 900, 1000, and 1200mAh that you can solder and run with it. They are relatively inexpensive and the lightest of the bunch.
Each goal you meet is a moment of happiness
Happiness is the harmony between what you think and what you do. Mahatma Gandhi

Offline John Rist

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Re: Brodak 1/2A power system
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2017, 07:33:53 AM »
Install a very small prop and check RPM.  As stated the KV is for no load.  Then work your way up in prop size.  Too small of a prop will not hurt an electric motor.  Too big of a prop is death.  Right the opposite of a gasser.  Check you wattage as you go: checking it agents the motor speck max.

Also you might want to buy a servo tester.  It can be used in place of the timer.   They are cheep on the BAY

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Popular-RC-Acc-HJ-Digital-Servo-ESC-Consistency-RC-Helicopter-Tester-Tool-O1S3-/112570699203?epid=2255023215&hash=item1a35bc8dc3:g:cK4AAOSw5cRZLpe7

Or really cheep:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Adjustment-Steering-Gear-Tester-CCPM-3-Mode-ESC-Servo-Motor-for-RC-Car-Airplanes-/322651775510?hash=item4b1f8b6216:g:1cEAAOSwU4JZkLfq
John Rist
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Offline Keith Renecle

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Re: Brodak 1/2A power system
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2017, 07:49:49 AM »
Hi Mark,
I tried that motor with the 6 x 5,5 prop with no luck. The Kv is too low for that prop. I like the 6" prop diameter because of ground clearance if you use wheels on the old 1/2A designs like the Carl Goldberg models etc. I found that a motor with a Kv of 1920 minimum to around 2000 is ideal and then that particular prop is perfect. A friend of mine flies the E-Max/Arrowind 2205/22 motor in his electric Lil Satan with the APC 7 x 5 Slow Flyer prop and it flies well on 35' Spiderwire lines.

I am however puzzled by the low rpm that you're getting. On the 6 x 5.5 prop I would have expected around 10 000 rpm. My tests with the E-Max GT 2205 with 1660 Kv turned the 10 x 4.7 APC prop at 9200 rpm. It would be interesting to try a small white card disc on the motor with black line across just to check the maximum rpm which should then be close to the rpm/volt rating. Use the R/C system and make sure that you calibrate the throttle range of the esc before you start to ensure that you are indeed getting full throttle from the esc. You normally do this by plugging in the battery with the TX throttle at full throttle and then wait for the 2 short beeps. After that you close the throttle and you get another 2 beeps followed by the normal start-up beeps. Hope this helps.

Keith R
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Online Dennis Adamisin

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Re: Brodak 1/2A power system
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2017, 08:40:07 AM »
Hi Mark
Sounds like you have gone through a lot of checks that all affirm the motor is an 1100 kv - which is wrong for the motor (it should be a 1650) way to low for 2 cells.  Send it back for a replacement.

Normally the set-up as described works fine.  I use it on a Baby Clown that will do the OTS pattern.  I have also used that set-up on 3 cells with a 6x4 for a nice power-up.  in nay case it should be winding up a LOT more than it is.
Denny Adamisin
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Online Dennis Adamisin

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Re: Brodak 1/2A power system
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2017, 08:46:42 AM »
Hi Mark

Just a follow-up on what I posted in the forum.  Call up Brodak, you will likely get either Patti or Cheryl.  Tell the that you want a replacement and that I suggested it.  THEN write me at dennis at Brodak dot com if you have any more problems/issues, or best of all if the replacement works as it should.
Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

As I've grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake!

Offline Mark Mc

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Re: Brodak 1/2A power system
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2017, 11:27:26 PM »
Well, for now I just charged up a 1000mAh and three 800mAh 3S battery packs.  The flying weight was nine ounces with the 800Mah packs and 9¾ ounces for the 1000mAh pack.  I was afraid it’d be a dog, but the plane flew okay for roundy-roundy flight.  I didn’t try to see what it’d do for loops and such.  I just had my son launch for me and I did three or four laps to make sure it’d fly, then turned the plane over to him.  I forgot to put Velcro on one of the 800mAh packs, so we only did three flights on the plane.  I’ll charge the batteries back up in a few minutes and I’ll see how much we took out of them.  He only flew between 3½ and 4 minutes on each flight.  The motor was cool, the ESC was cool, and the batteries were not quite warm.  So, they are not being taxed in any way
Dennis, I was hoping you’d chime in.  I’m not one for sending things back.  Not that I’m shy about making noise.  More that I’m of the temperament of, “I WILL make this work!”  If I can’t make this work, then I’ll send it back.  I have at least one APC 6x4, I think.  I’ll work that into my tests.

Traian, I did the 3S for today, but I’ll try the 2S next week with some tweaks.

Target, I have some 6x3, 6x4, and 5xsomething props I can try.

John, I’ll try different things and probably make myself a chart for prop vs. speed vs. power.  I do have a servo tester, so I can probably work that into my testing somehow.

Keith, thanks for the info on the APC 7x5SF prop.  I guess at the RPM I’m getting, a Slow Flyer prop would be okay.  I picked up a couple at the hobby shop today, and I’ll give them a try.  Since the 6x5.5 isn’t taxing the system, the 7x5 shouldn’t load it down much more.  35’ Spectra is what we’re flying on.  I never thought of the white card to check no load speeds.  I’ll have to make up a disc and give that a try.  I picked up a couple of new 800mAh packs at the hobby shop also so I can do the testing with what are hopefully two known good battery packs.

Thanks for all the help, Guys.
Mark

Online Dennis Adamisin

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Re: Brodak 1/2A power system
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2017, 08:45:37 AM »
According to APC the RPM limit on the 7" Slow Fly prop is 9,285 RPM - that is a little close to your 8400 RPM, please use caution.

Make noise at Brodak.  The test you described convinced me that the kv of the motor is wrong.  If you got 8400 RPM with 2S you are probably getting about 12,600 RPM with 3S. That's what you should be getting with 2S and a motor with 1650kv.

You said that after your 3S flight everything was cool.  Changing to a 6x4 will only slow it down and make it run cooler yet.  I do not think that will do anything for you.  I switched to the 6x4 with 3S to reduce current load and protect the small ESC, but I am getting a lot more RPM than you are getting.
Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

As I've grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake!

Offline Target

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Re: Brodak 1/2A power system
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2017, 09:11:59 AM »
I agree with Dennis, i had thought that maybe you were pulling too many amps, but if everything is cool after flight, that is not the case. An amp meter would surely tell the story.
Good luck,
Target
Regards,
Chris
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Brodak 1/2A power system
« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2017, 10:17:49 AM »
If your charger will keep track, check how many amp-hours you're putting back into the 3-cell packs -- you may be able to go much lighter on the pack with three cells.  Just doing it on paper, a 850mA-h 2S pack pencils out to having the same amount of energy as a 566mA-h 3S pack.  Without testing, if you have anything that comes close (500-600mA-h, 3S), you may want to try that -- it should be significantly lighter, and if the power system is as efficient as it should be, it should pull the thing along for a full flight.
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Offline Mark Mc

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Re: Brodak 1/2A power system
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2017, 02:04:32 PM »
When I charged up the 3S batteries last night, I put 345mA back into one pack, and 385mA back into the other to fully charge.  About 100mA per minute for each flight.  Seems a little low.  The third battery, the 1000mAh, I just put on a storage charge and did not fully refill.  I cut a paper disc last night and will try a No Load speed test on the motor tonight.

Dennis, I will be careful.  I have a healthy respect for props possibly throwing blades.  I've had nitro props throw blades well below their rated RPM, so I am always cautious.

I'll make a chart, and possibly video my tests.


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