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Author Topic: Beware of what the specification says!  (Read 2183 times)

Offline Andrew Borgogna

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Beware of what the specification says!
« on: September 13, 2011, 03:51:08 PM »
Below is the spec for the Trunigy SK358-900 motor.  In the spec it read rated power 700w and, well that was not true for my motor.  I was running along at 45amp at 12.5v as measure by my power meter.  I never exceeded 650 watts, with the battery fresh at 14.8 volts and 45amps the maximum power 666watts.  I never allowed the system to go beyond that.  In the first test I did take the power to 50amps for a very short period of time to verify the ESC could handle it but the remainder of test 1 and all of test 2 was done at 45amps.  Before doing the 50amp test I waited until the voltage reading on the battery was down to around 12.8volts, this would have been in the range of 640 watts still well below 700watts.  

I was using a 3300 4s battery and a 50amp ESC with a 12x6EP APC prop.  The failure occured on the second 2.5 minute run. Somewhere near the 2 minute point the motor released lots of smoke and came to sudden stop.  

You might wonder why I am doing such a thing, I was testing ESCs for a friend and it was easy to use the motor on my Trophy Trainer.  I had the ESC running full bore, 2ms pulse from servo tester.  Maybe there is something I need to know about specs and how much you can trust them, but I got led astray by this one.  I just realized the spec say "Max" current 60 for the ESC but it never says what the max current or continues current is for the motor is, I wonder......  Oh well live and learn.
Andy

TURNIGY AerodriveXp SK Series
AerodriveXP SK Series motors are designed for those who want the very best in outrunner technology for their R/C plane. Typically an efficiency improvement of around 8-10% can be seen over similar classed motors. This is in part due to the following;
 
Stator Laminations: .2mm
Magnet Type: N45SH
Bearings: Dual oversize (Japanese)
 
 
Model: SK35-48 900
Kv: 900rpm/v
Turns: 4
Resistance: 35mohm
Idle Current: 2.9A
Shaft: 5mm
Weight: 171g
Rated Power: 770w
ESC: 60A
Cell count: 3~5 Lipoly
Suggested Prop: 11*8, 13*6
Power equivalent : .25~42+ glow engine
« Last Edit: September 13, 2011, 04:10:19 PM by Andrew Borgogna »
Andrew B. Borgogna

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Beware of what the specification says!
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2011, 04:09:14 PM »
I wouldn't say beware of what the specification says, I'd say beware of buying cheap product and expecting it to live up to specification!

Did you read the spec carefully?  If they're semi-honest it may have some weasel-words about "peak power".

Or, it could just be that you got a bad motor -- have you contacted Hobby King for a return?
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline john vlna

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Re: Beware of what the specification says!
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2011, 06:27:32 PM »
When buying a cheap motor or any motor for that matter, remember the 3 gram rule of thumb. watts = 3 X weight (in grams). It is especially useful with cheaper motors such as those HK sells. Thier specs are always overstated. I've used turnigy and others with good results, but I am careful starting off. I always test on the ground and in the air with an Eagle tree logger before pushing the motor to its max.

P.S. 171 gram = 513Watts

Offline Andrew Borgogna

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Re: Beware of what the specification says!
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2011, 01:26:56 PM »
Actually I knew I was buy a cheap motor, I just wanted to see if they were worth the price.  I now will be very careful about trusting the spec, but I still may buy Turnigy.  They are cheap, and they deliver decent power, I just don't expect them to live very long.  That's kind of what I hoped to find out with this motor was just how long it would last.  My other 40 size plane has a Hacker motor, I hoped to compare the quality of the two.  Then compare their dollar value.  Just because a motor is cheap does not mean it has low value, what I did learn with this test is don't trust the spec and yes that's a negative on the dollar value.
Andy
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Offline David Hoover

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Re: Beware of what the specification says!
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2011, 03:50:43 PM »
I was just over on the Go Brushless web site looking at Scorpion motors.  The specs for the Scorpion SII 3026-890 show Max Continuous Power 1025 Watts and a weight of only 205 grams.  Using the '3 gram rule' the maximum power would be only 615 Watts.  Would information from Scorpion be that far off base?
Life is simple. Eat. Sleep. Fly!
Best, Hoovie

Offline john vlna

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Re: Beware of what the specification says!
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2011, 06:25:33 PM »
I have never bought a scorpion, but yes I would say they are overspecing the motor. I've had alot of different motors and the 3w/g seems to work well. If you ran it at 1000 watts continously I think it would get dangerously hot. Another rule of thumb is stay below 150 degrees F. I have 600 watt motors that I have run at 1000 but only for short bursts

Offline Dean Pappas

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Re: Beware of what the specification says!
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2011, 07:28:15 PM »
Dave,
I'm with John on this one: at 200 grams it is 600W motor with very, very, very brief 1000W spikes.
This is dreadful marketing practice.

Dean
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Offline john vlna

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Re: Beware of what the specification says!
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2011, 07:54:06 PM »
I fly carrier, so I can get away with pushing the envelope. Note in the attached I push the motor to over a 1000 watts for the high speed portion of the flight. The temperature rises but not excessively. during low speed the average watts drop to 500, about the motor max. The motor is a Turnigy 3648-850, not the SK. It weights 181g = 543w. Note the temperature rises to a max of 150-160 degrees. I am really pushing things, how long will it last? I am not sure but for $20 it is as cheap as fuel was.

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=8486

Offline Keith Renecle

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Re: Beware of what the specification says!
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2011, 01:16:19 AM »
Hi John,
One question.....where did you place the Eagle Tree temperature sensor for this test? I used mine quite a lot and I managed to stick the sensor inside the motor on the windings....carefully. The right place would be inside the metal core of the stator, but this is not the easiest thing to do.

I've found the E-Max/Arrowind motors to be great value for money. So far I have not had to change bearings but from this forum, it does not look like a big deal to do this. All of the .40 size profile stunters around here are using the 2820 with an APC 11 x 5,5 E prop, and the motor is almost cold when we land. The actual metal core is just warm but not hot. I managed to warm one up a bit more when I tested it with a 12 x 6 prop. Some of the Turnigy's also seem to be fine, but it seems like the SK series are not much good.

Lately, I have tested some of the newer E-Max GT-series motors, and I still prefer the standard versions. The GT's have the centrifugal fan at the back and prefer to be front-mounted. For the same size model, the older 2820 runs cooler if you get a decent airflow through it. Maybe after some more testing I may be more impressed by the GT version.

Keith R
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Offline Igor Burger

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Re: Beware of what the specification says!
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2011, 01:32:48 AM »
1/ the "power" is always the peak power, R/C guys does not fly at constant power or rpm or so, they tend to play a rocket and then falling down from sky, and they like to see large numbers, that is the reason to see 1kW on 200g motor  VD~

2/ the maximal contiguous power is at BEST EFFICIENCY ... in reality, the motor has ability to radiate some amount of power at some temperature, it could be say 100W at 90% efficiency from 1000W or the same 100W from 500W at 80% or 100W from 200W at 50% efficiency. Unfortunately our motors at partial power does not work at best efficiency. We are somewhere at 80%, and you can see that little change of efficiency can dramatically change maximal power - just compare power at 90% and 80% at the same loses it could be twice more or half of.

3/ the current which you see on battery leads is not the same like current in winding, ESC does something like converter, and current in winding is higher at partial power, and even worse - it is not smooth, and if you consider that the power loses in windig = IIR then the variable current because of PWM makes the thing even worse, that is why the "max power" is always at 100% throttle

Offline Dean Pappas

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Re: Beware of what the specification says!
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2011, 07:00:01 AM »
Hi John,
Okay, you are pushing 1000W for maybe 25 seconds, and not stunting.
You'll probably get away with this for a long time, especially if the motor temps are within reason, like they are.
I think you suspected that already, though.
Dean
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Offline john vlna

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Re: Beware of what the specification says!
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2011, 01:36:47 PM »
Dean, exactly right. In carrier high speed is less than 25-30 sec. The slow speed (hanging part) is scaled to the max rating of the motor. If I tried to do 1000 watts continuously in a stunt plane I would let  the smoke out.
John

Offline john vlna

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Re: Beware of what the specification says!
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2011, 01:47:12 PM »
Kieth,
I stick the temperature sensor right up in the middle of the motor, basiclly as you describe. You are right it is not always easy but its the best place I have found so far.

I have had good luck with the Turnigy motors, I prefer the blue and red ones, but the one SK I have has performed very well

In scale I run the motors much more conservatively, but as I noted before they cost hardly more than low nitro fuel, so if they only last for enough flights to compare to using a gallon up I would be happy. In fact they seem to last a lot longer as long as you are not over prop'ed.
John

Offline Andrew Borgogna

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Re: Beware of what the specification says!
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2011, 11:20:29 AM »
Using the 3 gram rule, the Turnigy motor I burned should have been rated around 531 watts not 700.  I was well above 531 during the entire test.  I also like what Igor had to say regarding battery current is not the current in the windings, this I didn't know but did worry about.  Also I did not measure the temperature of the motor except to touch it and it was hot.  How hot, I have no real data.  As a former QA engineer I know better and feel very DUMB!  ~^

Bottom line I tried to run a test and I was not correctly prepared for the job.  The real problem for me is I can't get a replacement, HobbyKing has them backordered.  So now I am forced to try and find a replacement.  No big thing except I use an external bearing located on the back side of the firewall.  The centering of this bearing is very critical, any variation in the new motor will be a very bad thing. 

Thanks everybody who contributed to this thread, I got lots of good information and will be much more careful before trying anything like this again.  The good news is I learned this lesson on a cheap motor. :)

Andy
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Offline john vlna

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Re: Beware of what the specification says!
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2011, 10:03:20 PM »
Andrew,
This is a very good motor, http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=8486 It looks like it would replace the SK and is in stock. I use it for Navy Carrier and it handles 600 watts  with 1100 watts bursts. The shaft can be reversed with a little work to accommodate  rear mounting.
John

Offline Andrew Borgogna

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Re: Beware of what the specification says!
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2011, 06:10:00 PM »
John
Thanks for you recommendation but if you take a close look at the motor you will notice that it is a front mount only motor.  There is no way to attach the prop to the bell of the motor.  I use firewall only mounting, so this motor cannot be used.  I have already ordered a Hacker A30-10XL from RSM and hopefull this will work.
Thanks Again
Andy
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Offline john vlna

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Re: Beware of what the specification says!
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2011, 11:48:23 AM »
Andy
Most motors can be reversed, but it is something to mess with, the Turnigy's are fairly easy to change.  Another line of motors I have had good luck with are the Exceed RC, this one is similar to the ones we have been talking about, and it does mount to a firewall. In fact I just bought one recently. I haven't used it yet but Motocalc simulations show it a bit better than the than the turnigy.
Trouble is hobbypartz does not always have them is stock, but they are usually restocked fairly quickly.
http://www.hobbypartz.com/monsterpower-32--770kv--outrunner-brushless-motor.html
John

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: Beware of what the specification says!
« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2011, 01:51:30 PM »
Just a mention, but there is an infrared thermometer available at Horrible Freight for $15.  It is IDENTICAL (including the brand!) to the ones sold for $10 more elsewhere.

Anyway, we used it at the field to check the motor, battery and esc on the planes we flew this week.  A nice tool to have, and you can easily measure the motor while it is running as the breeze has on effect on infrared rays.

I suspect it would have saved Andy's motor.   HB~>
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!


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