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Author Topic: Beginner pattern profile electric model??????  (Read 733 times)

Offline Duke.Johnson

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Beginner pattern profile electric model??????
« on: November 26, 2018, 10:30:50 PM »
Well Gents. Itís been awhile, but Iím trying to find time to get back in the circle.  Iíd like to finally learn the beginner pattern. And Iíd like to build an electric model or series of the same model, depending on how many crashes this takes.  Iíd also prefer a profile build, since Iíll be learning to built all over again too.  Iíve considered to Sig Akromaster (the first plane I built), the Sig Twister (seems like it would be easier to learn to fly in a bigger ship), the Pathfinder, or the S1 Ringmaster. 

If I remember right, it was hard to find a fuse long enough to fit a battery and motor in front of the leading edge.  I donít really care for the idea of cutting out the leading edge to make a battery pocket.  And I seem to remember needing the battery and motor to line up with the thrust line. 

I looked through the ďlist your setupĒ but didnít find a lot of ideas and doesnít look like a lot of new posts.  Iíd appreciate any help you guys could give.  Thanks ahead of time.


Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Beginner pattern profile electric model??????
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2018, 11:56:03 PM »
Well Gents. Itís been awhile, but Iím trying to find time to get back in the circle.  Iíd like to finally learn the beginner pattern. And Iíd like to build an electric model or series of the same model, depending on how many crashes this takes.  Iíd also prefer a profile build, since Iíll be learning to built all over again too.  Iíve considered to Sig Akromaster (the first plane I built), the Sig Twister (seems like it would be easier to learn to fly in a bigger ship), the Pathfinder, or the S1 Ringmaster. 

If I remember right, it was hard to find a fuse long enough to fit a battery and motor in front of the leading edge.  I donít really care for the idea of cutting out the leading edge to make a battery pocket.  And I seem to remember needing the battery and motor to line up with the thrust line. 

I looked through the ďlist your setupĒ but didnít find a lot of ideas and doesnít look like a lot of new posts.  Iíd appreciate any help you guys could give.  Thanks ahead of time.
Check out the "Show me my Twister" thread.  I don't know how to post a link to another post or I would get you there.  Several Electric Twisters there including mine.  I bought it for it's long nose to get me into electric.  A great stunt plane to learn the pattern on.  It is by no means as forgiving as the larger PA ships but it will corner with the best of them and it is very forgiving.  The Ringmaster is not a good plane to learn the pattern with.  Stalls way too easily.  Pathfinder is as good as it gets.  I don't have one but I have seen them flown (IC).  Brodak has an Electric version.  I went with the Twister for cost reasons.  I already had a Pathfinder size profile.  Lots of good stuff here on getting into Electric.  I started a thread a couple of months ago and got more help than I dreamed possible.  So much to learn, so little time.

As to the battery, it needs to be as close as possible to the vertical C/G, not necessarily the thrust line.  Get a big enough motor so that you can run it at less that it's full power.  The planes you are looking at should have a .40 size or slightly larger motor.  I am running a Cobra 2820/12 on mine.

Have fun and Welcome back!
Ken
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Offline John Rist

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Re: Beginner pattern profile electric model??????
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2018, 01:03:58 AM »
RSM has some electric all-in-one packaged under Control Line Kits  /  Profile C/L Kits

http://www.rsmdistribution.com/index.php

Good way to get into electric with a tested combination of gear.
John Rist
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Offline Duke.Johnson

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Re: Beginner pattern profile electric model??????
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2018, 05:45:24 AM »
Thanks. Iíll look into both replies. I didnít see the e-twister thread. Iíll look it up later

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Beginner pattern profile electric model??????
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2018, 06:23:05 AM »
Thanks. Iíll look into both replies. I didnít see the e-twister thread. Iíll look it up later
"Show Us Your Twister" in the Open Forum.  You will have to page through to find the Electrics. 
 Ken
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Offline Motorman

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Re: Beginner pattern profile electric model??????
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2018, 09:17:32 AM »
Duke, you hit the nail on the head when you said smaller planes have a hard time going electric. Nose space and balance are hard to deal with. Do yourself a big favor and go with something at least 575 Sq. In. and it will fly better too. An excellent choice would be the Brodak Tanager, it has a real stunt wing/airfoil and flys well in the wind. The only foot note would be to stiffen the fuselage with 2 strips of Dave Brown CF laminate down each side and use Tom Morris control system but you could say that about any good size profile.

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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Beginner pattern profile electric model??????
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2018, 11:07:23 AM »
My self I would suggest that anybody wanting to learn the beginner pattern as well as what airplane, find some body local to get with for help and advice.   Some times they may have a plane that needs me minor repairs or cleaning you can get for almost little to nothing.  I have some planes in need of a home but they are not electric.

Also spend time just reading all the posts on this site. D>K
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Beginner pattern profile electric model??????
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2018, 11:49:37 AM »
Skyray 35.  Easy to fix, survives crashes well, and uses smaller batteries and motors.  Electric equipment costs scale strongly with size; a Skyray 35 should be a lot cheaper to electrify than something bigger.  See if you can find some fat stubby batteries.  Electric motors don't survive crashes as well as engines do, so buy cheap and lay in a supply.
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Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Beginner pattern profile electric model??????
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2018, 12:32:54 PM »
Skyray 35.  Easy to fix, survives crashes well, and uses smaller batteries and motors.  Electric equipment costs scale strongly with size; a Skyray 35 should be a lot cheaper to electrify than something bigger.  See if you can find some fat stubby batteries.  Electric motors don't survive crashes as well as engines do, so buy cheap and lay in a supply.

I second that motion.  The difference between running 3s batteries and 4s batteries is dramatic, not to mention the weight.  The 5 & 6s that the serious folks use require multiple credit references.  You will find however that excluding the timer, the motor is most likely the cheapest part of the low end electric system.

Can I throw something out just for grins.  I have moved to electric and will most likely not move back to IC but, other than dinged props and a few skinned rudders, I haven't "crashed" a plane due to pilot error in about 50 years and that is not unusual.  When I was learning the pattern it was a weekly event.  Most IC engines will survive even a straight in over grass.  It might be to your advantage to fly IC until you can fly inverted without thinking about it and instinctively make the right move when the lines go slack.  However, if noise is the issue then - never mind.

Ken
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Offline Mike Alimov

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Re: Beginner pattern profile electric model??????
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2018, 12:39:35 PM »
Another vote for Twister, especially if you like it so much.  My kid completed learning his beginner pattern on one.  We used E-Flite Power 10 motor with Castle Phoenix 35 ESC, Hubin FM-9 timer and a Turnigy 3S 2200 mAh battery.  APC 10x6E prop, 60' lines.  Can't remember RPM, I think around 9500.  The motor and the battery fit in the nose just fine, and the CG balanced easily.  The battery was enough for a 4 min flight, which is more than enough for the beginner pattern.

Having said all that, the Twister is not as crashworthy as combat wing-based trainers of similar size (for example, Phil Cartier's trainers).  Those can be stuffed into the ground multiple times and repair easily.  The Twister wing will turn into a bunch of balsa pieces inside a Monokote bag.  It all depends on where you are in your learning curve, but generally trainers in the 430-450 sq, inch wing area with reasonably light wing loading (10-11 oz/in^2) and a reasonably thick and blunt airfoil don't need flaps to fly a very decent beginner pattern.  Which is why I think modern combat wings make such a great learning platform.

Also, I highly recommend making motor mounts out of ~ 0.050" soft-ish aluminum sheet (or something close - check sheet stock at Lowes).  I lost count of how many motor mounts I've gone through before he learned how to fly - but saved us many motors and fuselages! Do stock up on propellers, however.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Beginner pattern profile electric model??????
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2018, 02:17:47 PM »
Also, I highly recommend making motor mounts out of ~ 0.050" soft-ish aluminum sheet (or something close - check sheet stock at Lowes).  I lost count of how many motor mounts I've gone through before he learned how to fly - but saved us many motors and fuselages! Do stock up on propellers, however.

Pictures?  Did you just use an "L" bracket that would bend out of the way when the motor hit the dirt, or what?
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Offline Jim Mynes

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Re: Beginner pattern profile electric model??????
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2018, 02:43:44 PM »
Skyray 35.  Easy to fix, survives crashes well, and uses smaller batteries and motors.  Electric equipment costs scale strongly with size; a Skyray 35 should be a lot cheaper to electrify than something bigger.  See if you can find some fat stubby batteries.  Electric motors don't survive crashes as well as engines do, so buy cheap and lay in a supply.

I have one of these. A 4S 2200 ThunderPower battery fits nicely between the motor and wing.
I have seen the light, and itís powered by a lipo.

Offline Joe Ed Pederson

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Re: Beginner pattern profile electric model??????
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2018, 04:13:28 PM »
When I was learning the pattern it was a weekly event.  Most IC engines will survive even a straight in over grass.  It might be to your advantage to fly IC until you can fly inverted without thinking about it and instinctively make the right move when the lines go slack.  However, if noise is the issue then - never mind.

Ken


Ken,

Thanks for this piece of advice.    I've considered going electric.  But, when I fly upside down, I still have a high pucker factor and that's when I'm well above shoulder height.    Lot's more tanks of fuel before I'll be able to fly inverted without thinking about it.

Another factor for me in sticking with IC for the time being is that I have nearly 4 gallons of fuel and being a cheapskate, I plan on burning it up before I move over/up to electric.


Twister story: Monokoted Fancherized Twister given to me by Doc Holliday.  Fuselage had been broken in half behind the wing and epoxied back together before she got handed down to me.   I put my old OS Max .35S on it and in an early flight misjudged how much fuel was left, pulled up sharply and the engine died instantly sending her sailing towards me in a tall arc.   I couldn't outrun her to get line tension back.   She went straight in nose first into damp ground with grass.    I expected the wing to be a monokote bag of balsa, but the Twister was completely undamaged except for the wooden prop.  I use wooden props exclusively to decrease the chance of damaging the engine in such encounters.  (Does anyone know if crashing with wooden props decreases the chance or extent of damage the model sustains?  So, yes over grass (escpecially if the ground is at all damp) the Twister seems pretty tough.  With my slow learning curve, she'll need to be.

Thanks again, Ken.

Joe Ed Pederson

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Beginner pattern profile electric model??????
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2018, 05:57:24 PM »
Does anyone know if crashing with wooden props decreases the chance or extent of damage the model sustains?

I dunno.  But I've been flying almost exclusively with APC props, and never saw engine damage from post-hole crashes.  Even when the plane was buried four inches deep into the dirt.
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Offline Mike Alimov

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Re: Beginner pattern profile electric model??????
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2018, 06:11:17 PM »

Does anyone know if crashing with wooden props decreases the chance or extent of damage the model sustains?

Since wood props break much easier than plastic, they absorb less crash energy, leaving more energy to dissipate into the motor, mounts, fuselage, etc.  So I would think that plastic props are better at preserving your plane in a crash.  (...Said I after buying over 20 APC props in the last 2 months).

Offline Mike Alimov

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Re: Beginner pattern profile electric model??????
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2018, 06:57:04 PM »
Pictures?  Did you just use an "L" bracket that would bend out of the way when the motor hit the dirt, or what?

Unfortunately, that plane is in storage for the winter, so no easy way to take pictures.  However, it is very basic - yes, an L-shaped angle bracket that I bent using a soft aluminum sheet in a bending brake (Harbor Freight item).  The key for these .15-.25 size trainers (25-30 oz) is to use thinner and softer material than the 1/16" wall aluminum angle stock found at Lowes and such.  Upon impact, the mounts bend and self-destruct, absorbing most of the impact energy and thus saving motor, fuselage, etc. (no saving the prop, unfortunately).
The motor gets attached to the X-mount that comes with every motor, and rear-mounted to the brackets, which in turn are attached on both sides of the profile fuselage using two 4-40 screws.  While making the mounts, I bend the outboard one about 3 degrees past square, and the inboard one 3 deg under square, to give the motor about 3 degrees of offset to help with line tension.   Add a clockwise prop and a rudder, and it's better yet. With these little trainers, every little bit helps.

In a separate thread, I'll be posting pix for a little more substantial mount for the .40-.46 size / 550 in^2 /45oz planes, as soon as I re-size the pictures from my phone.

Offline Duke.Johnson

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Re: Beginner pattern profile electric model??????
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2018, 08:09:17 PM »
RSM has some electric all-in-one packaged under Control Line Kits  /  Profile C/L Kits

http://www.rsmdistribution.com/index.php

Good way to get into electric with a tested combination of gear.
Having trouble getting RSM to load.  It Iíll try later. Thanks

Offline Duke.Johnson

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Re: Beginner pattern profile electric model??????
« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2018, 08:13:07 PM »
"Show Us Your Twister" in the Open Forum.  You will have to page through to find the Electrics. 
 Ken
That thread title is better. I found it and will start weeding through it.  Thanks

Offline Duke.Johnson

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Re: Beginner pattern profile electric model??????
« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2018, 08:18:00 PM »
My self I would suggest that anybody wanting to learn the beginner pattern as well as what airplane, find some body local to get with for help and advice.   Some times they may have a plane that needs me minor repairs or cleaning you can get for almost little to nothing.  I have some planes in need of a home but they are not electric.

Also spend time just reading all the posts on this site. D>K
Good advice.  I have a great group of guys here locally. And a great club my boys and I used to belong to. I have a ton of plane built and most ready to fly, but Iím looking to build a couple of the same model to learn on. Iím going to try to get more involved with the local club again. Thanks

Offline Duke.Johnson

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Re: Beginner pattern profile electric model??????
« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2018, 08:28:37 PM »
Skyray 35.  Easy to fix, survives crashes well, and uses smaller batteries and motors.  Electric equipment costs scale strongly with size; a Skyray 35 should be a lot cheaper to electrify than something bigger.  See if you can find some fat stubby batteries.  Electric motors don't survive crashes as well as engines do, so buy cheap and lay in a supply.
Hey Tim. Great to hear from you. The Skyray 35,  I forgot about that one. You have alway been big on that one. I remember when my youngest Nathan was learning. You gave him one and helped him a lot. You got Nate to build a couple and I remember the plywood build was easy. This might be the model to learn on. Fast strong builds. Hmmm. Iíll look into to a electric system for it. Thanks for the reminder. Hope to see you in the new year at a Skyraider event. I think Ive talked my oldest son Daniel to build a new plane too. Daniel always was the better flyer out of the three of us and I was the worst.

Offline Mike Haverly

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Re: Beginner pattern profile electric model??????
« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2018, 10:27:16 PM »
Duke, you don't live far from me and even closer to Howard.  Stop by some time, we can talk in person and get off on the right foot.  Not saying that the above advice is bad, just have to make sure you go down the right path and have something that I is repeatable from project to project.
Mike

Offline Duke.Johnson

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Re: Beginner pattern profile electric model??????
« Reply #21 on: November 28, 2018, 05:46:47 AM »
Thanks Mike. Iíll get in contact with you guys soon. Iíve seen you guys flying at Chehalis and wished I was there, but life has been really busy.

I think I have a Power 15, 35-40amp esc, hubin timer, and I probably need new batteries. I havenít found all the stuff yet. If I remember right and by looking through other set ups on the forum this should be about the right set up for a 400sqin model.

Offline John Hammonds

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Re: Beginner pattern profile electric model??????
« Reply #22 on: November 28, 2018, 06:46:02 AM »
I'm in the UK so can't help with any flying advice (Not that I'm good enough anyway).

But I would like to make a shout out for the Corehouse Gotchastreak. I used mine to learn the schedule. No flaps but does squares very well. I found it easy to trim and balances nicely with a variety of powertrains (3S 4000, 4S 2700 - Scorpion 30-14, AXI 2820).

Mine has been rebuilt more times than I care to remember and is a bit of a porky beast now but still flies well enough for me to keep rebuilding it. Spares are available from Phil as well as far as I know.

Pictures added for your amusement....

TTFN
John.
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Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Beginner pattern profile electric model??????
« Reply #23 on: November 28, 2018, 06:57:36 AM »
I'm in the UK so can't help with any flying advice (Not that I'm good enough anyway).

But I would like to make a shout out for the Corehouse Gotchastreak. I used mine to learn the schedule. No flaps but does squares very well. I found it easy to trim and balances nicely with a variety of powertrains (3S 4000, 4S 2700 - Scorpion 30-14, AXI 2820).

Mine has been rebuilt more times than I care to remember and is a bit of a porky beast now but still flies well enough for me to keep rebuilding it. Spares are available from Phil as well as far as I know.

Pictures added for your amusement....

TTFN
John.
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Ken
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Offline Mark Mc

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Re: Beginner pattern profile electric model??????
« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2018, 04:17:42 PM »
Duke, glad to see you getting back in.  I can't believe it's been five years since you let me fly your 1/2A plane at the Delta Park 4th of July picnic and got me hooked.  I don't know how many models I've built since then.  I still can't fly well, but I've got models all over.  Looking forward to seeing what you build.

Mark

Offline Duke.Johnson

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Re: Beginner pattern profile electric model??????
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2018, 08:19:42 PM »
Hey Mark! I still suck at flying CL, but hope to change that this go around.

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Beginner pattern profile electric model??????
« Reply #26 on: December 01, 2018, 12:53:03 AM »
I just moved to Olympia.  I have an electric-only flying circle.  Come on over. 
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Beginner pattern profile electric model??????
« Reply #27 on: December 01, 2018, 12:04:47 PM »
I just moved to Olympia.  I have an electric-only flying circle.  Come on over.

Actually, the process of methanol and nitromethane breaking down and then combining with oxygen involves electron transfer...
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Offline Duke.Johnson

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Re: Beginner pattern profile electric model??????
« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2018, 10:01:05 PM »
Thanks for the invite Howard. I heard you were going to move down here.  I need to build something first. I think the only electric I have left is a night flyer that I put LEDís in the ing before I covered it.. 

Offline Ty Marcucci

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Re: Beginner pattern profile electric model??????
« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2018, 11:16:42 PM »
Contact Tom Morris and order one of his profile Cavaliers built for electric.  Dozens of them successfully flying around here in the SE and mid West. H^^
Ty Marcucci

Offline Target

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Re: Beginner pattern profile electric model??????
« Reply #30 on: December 01, 2018, 11:30:40 PM »
Thanks for the invite Howard. I heard you were going to move down here.  I need to build something first. I think the only electric I have left is a night flyer that I put LEDís in the ing before I covered it..

My second CL plane is an Oriental ARF.
Not too much building, not too expensive, and not too hard to convert to Epower.
So, not too much attachment if you crash it. Maybe good for a second model, stick to a profile for the first I guess.

Exceed Rocket motor
KR timer
4S2700 or 4S2100 TP batteries.
Xoar 10x5 prop Slotted HK spinner.
45oz I think with the smaller batteries.

Have fun and good luck,
Target
Regards,
Chris
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Offline Duke.Johnson

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Re: Beginner pattern profile electric model??????
« Reply #31 on: December 06, 2018, 08:06:52 PM »
Mike and Howard. I pmíed you both the same message


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