Author Topic: BBQ'd Phoenix ICE 50 ESC (Read 3616 times)

Bruce Hoffmann · « **on:** June 18, 2011, 10:39:42 PM »

I thought I had left problems behind me when I converted from IC Powered models to EL about 18 months ago,. but it seems old 'Murphy' is always there, just waiting to strike you down when he sees an opportunity!

As may have been seen in a previous post, a couple of weeks ago I converted my older IC Powered 'Firecracker' stunt models to EL power.. I haven't mixed any fuel for an IC engine now for over 18 months and thought that era was behind me as far as flying F2B aerobatics was concerned.

I've been running my normal 'comp' models on either a Plettenberg 2510 or Arrowind 2832 motor, a Phoenix ICE 50 ESC, Hubin Fm2 or 9 timers and 4 cell batteries of between 3000 & 3700mah capacity. I had 2 ESC's the above type in my 'current' models and a few weeks ago thought I'd buy another to save swapping them around and to just have a 'spare' ready to go.. So the order from 'Tower Hobbies' arrived early June and yesterday I was out with the model and the new ESC (after being programmed to the identical settings of the previous two) for a test flight.

The FM9 timer was set for a short run of 2.5 minutes - just to check speed etc. I had the RPM set on the no. 2 setting (9200) as this was a starting point and the same Rpm that I was using on my current model of the same type. Everything was set to 'GO' - the model took off and I immediately saw that it was flying nearly a second slower per lap than I needed it to at what was the same set Rpm as my 'normal' model, I was thinking as it flew "Well, I'll have to change the Rpm to the next speed when it lands for the next test flight" When the model reached what I thought was the end of the flight I felt the motor slow and guessed it was about to stop after the normal 5 second time lapse - however in stead of stopping, the motor accelerated for a few seconds (about half a lap) to what I thought could have been the speed it should have been doing to begin with. However the motor then stopped and began to 'free wheel' - which it should not have been doing as I had it set to 'brake' at the end of the flight. On landing a friend carried the model to the pits and as I was walking back toward it from the handle another friend called "Hey, its's on fire!!"

Sure enough, there were flames coming out the side of the cowl (underneath is completely open), one of my friends was blowing furiously on it and the flames went down a little, I pulled wires from under the model away and turned it over. There was still a small flame coming from the ESC which I blew out too. So then looking at it all, and so extremely fortunate that the damage appeared not to be serious.

Mainly smoke staining to the paint inside the cowl and also to the battery - which I checked later and found to be working and balancing ok - however the ESC has had it - it is burnt to a crisp and beyond all help and I think no postmortem examination as well.

So understandably this is a concern! Why did it happen? As mentioned - all programming and equipment was identical to that used over hundreds of flights in my other models - the cowl is fully open underneath the model and the ESC was mounted to the rear quite close to the bottom of the fuselage where there would be more than adequate cooling - so overheating just couldn't be an issue. All electrical connections were shielded using shrink wrapping and banana plugs so I don't think any 'short' could have occurred.

I've sent a letter off today to Castle Creations asking that the ESC be replaced under the terms of the Warranty as I'm of the belief that there was some internal issue that caused the problem.. hopefully I'll get a favourable response from them soon..

Anyway, any comments or advice gratefully accepted..

Hoffo

Tim Wescott · « **Reply #1 on:** June 18, 2011, 11:20:50 PM »

Put sheet rock in your engine (well, ESC) compartment?

Two serious suggestions:

One, save the ESC, and ask Castle if they want it -- even if it's thoroughly toasted they may be able to get something out of it.

Two (as if you aren't going to do this anyway), keep an eye on that battery. It probably suffered from over current, and may have a short life.

Bruce Hoffmann · « **Reply #2 on:** June 19, 2011, 12:46:42 AM »

Hi Tim..

Thanks for the advice... I swapped over another ESC into the model and ran it on the timer for 2.5min (same settings as yesterday), keeping an eye on the temperatures etc and using the remainder of the battery from yesterday too. Everything seemed to operate 'normally' ... yes, I'm keeping an eye on the battery too, it's actually being re-charged right now and all the balancing etc seems ok - but I'll watch it.

I've kept all the 'fried' pieces of the ESC (Maybe I'll mount them in Resin and put them on the mantlepiece?) - I've advised 'Castle' that I have the bits if they want them for a post mortem - if that's possible..

As for the sheet rock - well, I do need some nose weight!

Bruce

Dennis Adamisin · « **Reply #3 on:** June 19, 2011, 05:41:18 AM »

SCARRY!

Looks like a "crib death" ESC failure. I guess we (you!) will see how well Castle stands behind their product...

William DeMauro · « **Reply #4 on:** June 19, 2011, 06:26:22 AM »

Fill out the warranty form here http://www.castlecreations.com/support/repairs.html . They stand 110% behind their products. I just sent a PHX 45 back out of warranty to their flat rate repair center that was literally burnt to ashes. I'm getting a new one for $40 shipped. If its almost new like yours its covered unconditionally.

John Rist · « **Reply #5 on:** June 19, 2011, 10:58:18 AM »

ESC have rather large tantalum caps. It is not unusual for them to fail early on - known as infant mortality. They can produce quit a fire ball when they let go! Most common cause is installed backwards - but that error should show up at factory test.

Tim Wescott · « **Reply #6 on:** June 19, 2011, 11:46:32 AM »

Quote from: John Rist on June 19, 2011, 10:58:18 AM

ESC have rather large tantalum caps. It is not unusual for them to fail early on - known as infant mortality. They can produce quit a fire ball when they let go! Most common cause is installed backwards - but that error should show up at factory test.

Tantalum caps don't need to be installed backwards to decide to go up in flame. I notice that the really big bypass caps on the ESC's that I've seen appear to be aluminum electrolytic -- where are the tantalums?

Bruce Hoffmann · « **Reply #7 on:** June 19, 2011, 03:41:32 PM »

Quote from: William DeMauro on June 19, 2011, 06:26:22 AM

Fill out the warranty form here http://www.castlecreations.com/support/repairs.html . They stand 110% behind their products. I just sent a PHX 45 back out of warranty to their flat rate repair center that was literally burnt to ashes. I'm getting a new one for $40 shipped. If its almost new like yours its covered unconditionally.

Thanks for all the info. and advice here - that's what I was after. I'll see how I go with my email sent yesterday to the Castle 'support' centre - if they want me to do more I will.

Do the problems identified (re Infant mortality etc) mean that it would be a good idea to 'bench run' our EL systems before hitting the flying field? Would hate to think what would have happened to my model if the 'flame out' occurred while up in the air!! - Certainly something worthy of a 'Youtube" video though!!

Paul Allen · « **Reply #8 on:** June 19, 2011, 03:51:01 PM »

Bruce
I was just thinking the same thing,maybe a couple of runs in a test stand, before fitting the system to the model.
Thanks to yourself and CLAS for running the State Champs.
Paul

John Rist · « **Reply #9 on:** June 19, 2011, 06:41:40 PM »

Quote from: Tim Wescott on June 19, 2011, 11:46:32 AM

Tantalum caps don't need to be installed backwards to decide to go up in flame. I notice that the really big bypass caps on the ESC's that I've seen appear to be aluminum electrolytic -- where are the tantalums?

True - the big can capacitors are probably aluminum electrolytic. The tantalums would most likely be the larger surface mount parts on the printed circuit board. I am sure all ESC have on board 5V regulators that operate off of the Li-Po flight battery. This mini power supply will definitely have filter caps - most likely surface mount tantalum chip caps.

John Rist · « **Reply #10 on:** June 19, 2011, 06:55:48 PM »

Quote from: Bruce Hoffmann on June 19, 2011, 03:41:32 PM

Do the problems identified (re Infant mortality etc) mean that it would be a good idea to 'bench run' our EL systems before hitting the flying field? Would hate to think what would have happened to my model if the 'flame out' occurred while up in the air!! - Certainly something worthy of a 'Youtube" video though!!

I worked in the military and space electronics industry for 40+ years. For most of the military and all of the space hardware testing procedures required around a 10 hour burn in. Some of the space hardware we ran for 30 days. This of course would be hard to achieve with a battery operated device but I think 4-5 bunch runs on a new setup might be a smart approach.

Bruce Hoffmann · « **Reply #11 on:** June 20, 2011, 01:01:54 AM »

Have to agree John.. from here on in I'll be 'bench testing' any new equipment!

A quick update though...
I went out and flew the model a couple of times today (before I had to stop due to strong winds) - used an ESC of the same type from another model, but the same battery, timer, motor and everything that was in the aeroplane when the 'flame out' occurred, Everything after the flights was fine - all the components were absolutely as 'cool as the proverbial cucumber'!

Bruce H

Bruce Hoffmann · « **Reply #12 on:** June 20, 2011, 01:06:12 AM »

Quote from: paul allen on June 19, 2011, 03:51:01 PM

Thanks to yourself and CLAS for running the State Champs.

Hi Paul.. now worries about the 'States' - I didn't do much at all (Presidents don't do they?

)

A pity about the shocking weather we had though; however I think we were lucky to get through the comp. as we did - the next few days were much wetter and just as windy as well!

Great to see you down though - be sure to drag Bucky along next time!

Derek Barry · « **Reply #13 on:** June 20, 2011, 05:16:33 AM »

Quote from: Bruce Hoffmann on June 18, 2011, 10:39:42 PM

I thought I had left problems behind me when I converted from IC Powered models to EL about 18 months ago,. but it seems old 'Murphy' is always there, just waiting to strike you down when he sees an opportunity!

As may have been seen in a previous post, a couple of weeks ago I converted my older IC Powered 'Firecracker' stunt models to EL power.. I haven't mixed any fuel for an IC engine now for over 18 months and thought that era was behind me as far as flying F2B aerobatics was concerned.

I've been running my normal 'comp' models on either a Plettenberg 2510 or Arrowind 2832 motor, a Phoenix ICE 50 ESC, Hubin Fm2 or 9 timers and 4 cell batteries of between 3000 & 3700mah capacity. I had 2 ESC's the above type in my 'current' models and a few weeks ago thought I'd buy another to save swapping them around and to just have a 'spare' ready to go.. So the order from 'Tower Hobbies' arrived early June and yesterday I was out with the model and the new ESC (after being programmed to the identical settings of the previous two) for a test flight.

The FM9 timer was set for a short run of 2.5 minutes - just to check speed etc. I had the RPM set on the no. 2 setting (9200) as this was a starting point and the same Rpm that I was using on my current model of the same type. Everything was set to 'GO' - the model took off and I immediately saw that it was flying nearly a second slower per lap than I needed it to at what was the same set Rpm as my 'normal' model, I was thinking as it flew "Well, I'll have to change the Rpm to the next speed when it lands for the next test flight" When the model reached what I thought was the end of the flight I felt the motor slow and guessed it was about to stop after the normal 5 second time lapse - however in stead of stopping, the motor accelerated for a few seconds (about half a lap) to what I thought could have been the speed it should have been doing to begin with. However the motor then stopped and began to 'free wheel' - which it should not have been doing as I had it set to 'brake' at the end of the flight. On landing a friend carried the model to the pits and as I was walking back toward it from the handle another friend called "Hey, its's on fire!!"

Sure enough, there were flames coming out the side of the cowl (underneath is completely open), one of my friends was blowing furiously on it and the flames went down a little, I pulled wires from under the model away and turned it over. There was still a small flame coming from the ESC which I blew out too. So then looking at it all, and so extremely fortunate that the damage appeared not to be serious. Mainly smoke staining to the paint inside the cowl and also to the battery - which I checked later and found to be working and balancing ok - however the ESC has had it - it is burnt to a crisp and beyond all help and I think no postmortem examination as well.

So understandably this is a concern! Why did it happen? As mentioned - all programming and equipment was identical to that used over hundreds of flights in my other models - the cowl is fully open underneath the model and the ESC was mounted to the rear quite close to the bottom of the fuselage where there would be more than adequate cooling - so overheating just couldn't be an issue. All electrical connections were shielded using shrink wrapping and banana plugs so I don't think any 'short' could have occurred.

I've sent a letter off today to Castle Creations asking that the ESC be replaced under the terms of the Warranty as I'm of the belief that there was some internal issue that caused the problem.. hopefully I'll get a favourable response from them soon..

Anyway, any comments or advice gratefully accepted..

Hoffo

Just one more reason NOT to go electric. I would hate for one of my planes to "flame out"

Bruce Hoffmann · « **Reply #14 on:** June 20, 2011, 05:33:48 AM »

Sorry... still more reliable than IC!

Derek Barry · « **Reply #15 on:** June 20, 2011, 05:53:36 AM »

Quote from: Bruce Hoffmann on June 20, 2011, 05:33:48 AM

Sorry... still more reliable than IC!

Not from what I've seen.....

Did you ever own a PA? They don't catch on fire.......

Don't take me too seriously, I like to get you electric guys all charged up!

Derek Barry · « **Reply #16 on:** June 20, 2011, 05:56:39 AM »

On a more serious note; I am very sorry that your plane was damaged. That alone would have stopped me from using electric.

I have my own reasons for not using it......

Derek

Bruce Hoffmann · « **Reply #17 on:** June 20, 2011, 06:12:45 AM »

Quote from: Derek Barry on June 20, 2011, 05:56:39 AM

On a more serious note; I am very sorry that your plane was damaged. That alone would have stopped me from using electric.

I have my own reasons for not using it......

Derek

No offence taken Derek - each to his own. A few years ago I was very happy with 4 Strokes, then I went to a Stalker .61 that didn't have enough power to wipe the skin off boiled milk!

All problems associated with IC disappeared when I started using EL power systems (no chance of getting a miniscule piece of dust in your NVA to stuff up the engine run etc) but 'stunt' being 'stunt' there will always be something new to try and problems to overcome & I guess this is just another step in the never ending learning curve!

Bruce H

Mike Anderson · « **Reply #18 on:** June 20, 2011, 06:57:46 AM »

Quote from: Derek Barry on June 20, 2011, 05:53:36 AM

Not from what I've seen.....

Did you ever own a PA? They don't catch on fire.......

Don't take me too seriously, I like to get you electric guys all charged up!

Kidding aside, I have seen MANY glow powered planes go up in flames - invisible flames that often spread to the fuel covered hands of the pit man or helper. Most often in racing and combat, of course, but the any plane that has glow fuel and a hot glow plug is susceptible to the occasional fiery hiccup during the starting process.

WhittleN · « **Reply #19 on:** June 20, 2011, 07:26:04 AM »

I have to totally agree with Derek
If you have any experience with IC powered models it should be a rule that you must stay with that type of propulsion. That is unless you switched before Jan 2011. We don’t need any more Electric flyers burning down airplanes.

On a more serious note - I’m amazed that not more damage was done to the airplane. I would have expected the front end to disappear. Has your investigation revealed any clue why the ESC smoked?

Norm

Dean Pappas · « **Reply #20 on:** June 20, 2011, 02:34:45 PM »

Hello Bruce,
Thanks for sharing this learning experience with us: from now on, everything new that I get will be run on a test stand first!
It's easy to imagine any one of a number of component or assembly failures in the ESC that would pass final circuit test at manufacture and then suffer from infant mortality, causing a meltdown like what you saw.
Several runs on the test bench with an undersized prop that loads the system to the expected current would save us all from this sort of unlikely event.
While the odds are small, the damage could have been great.

take care,
Dean P.

Bruce Hoffmann · « **Reply #21 on:** June 20, 2011, 03:26:09 PM »

Quote from: WhittleN on June 20, 2011, 07:26:04 AM

Has your investigation revealed any clue why the ESC smoked?
Norm

Hi Norm, no - I'm afraid right now I have no idea why this occurred - I can only surmise that perhaps, as was mentioned earlier in this post - that one or more of the components has failed for some reason (installed incorrectly?).

As Dean P. has suggested here, the best practice may be in the future to test run systems at a higher load to induce an early failure if there is a fault.

BTL.. I've seen burn marks inside my cowl on a 4 stroke model I had - a Saito 56 or 72 with the venturi at the rear and facing upwards must have 'burped' at some point and all the area above the venturi was black/burned. I didn't know anything about this until at some point I removed the engine - it could have easily gone up in flames too but as has been mentioned, glow fuel is invisible until the model itself starts to burn! At least with the EL issue I've had the flames were immediately seen 'before' the model started to burn.

WhittleN · « **Reply #22 on:** June 20, 2011, 07:22:33 PM »

Bruce
I didn't realize that this was a brand new ESC. I'm sure Castle Creations will make it right. I would recommend a 9x6 for testing. I use a 8x6 prop cut down from a 10x6 but it is a little light on the load it puts on the ESC in static condition (test bench). I did notice on my Lite 50 the top (computer board) was listing to the side and down in the front. Wonder if this board touching could have something to do with your ESC failure. I pushed a toothpick in between the two boards because I was afraid that getting the heat shrink tubing hot would further pull this board down and cause a failure. Well I'm sorry to hear this.
Regards
Norm

Bruce Hoffmann · « **Reply #23 on:** June 20, 2011, 07:31:35 PM »

Thanks Norm..

Just more care all round next time & bench running..

haven't heard back from 'Castle' yet but I guess that may take a few days..

Bruce

Bruce Hoffmann · « **Reply #24 on:** June 22, 2011, 06:51:39 AM »

Very happy,

have heard from 'Castle' and they are going to replace the faulty ESC. As soon as the new one arrives I'm to send the remains of the old one back so that it can be looked at by their technicians.

Well done Castle!

Peter Nevai · « **Reply #25 on:** June 28, 2011, 08:31:58 PM »

Don't expect this sort of thing to get better anytime soon, an recent industry report warned that up to 40% of the semiconductors on the open market are cheap low quality Chinese counterfeits. The markings on the devices would lead you to believe they are from HP, Motorola, Texas instruments or some other reputable company, but they are counterfit. I has gotten so bad that the DOD now estimates that up to 30% of it's supply chain of replacement parts are counterfit, including microprocessors used in weapons systems and missiles.

Unless you can verify the pedigree of the components and origins it's buyer beware.

bob branch · « **Reply #26 on:** June 29, 2011, 08:33:03 PM »

I had a second ice 50 blow up in a plane last weekend. This one was in an rc plane, the previous one in my T-Rex. The T-Rex one was monumental going off like a roman candle after a prop strike in thick wet grass. All three power leads exploded out of the esc and there was lots of flame and fire. Absolutely zero damage to the airplane other than the stink. No need to worry about damage to the planes. This second one was a crib death of the unit CC sent to me to replace the first. It failed on the second circuit of the field with a brand new plane. Our runway is 2800 ft long grass so no issue getting it down safely. This time just smoke still wifting out when I had gotten to the plane about 1000 ft down the runway. When I send it back I am going to request a phoenix esc in replacement.

bob branch

Bruce Hoffmann · « **Reply #27 on:** June 30, 2011, 03:38:15 AM »

Sounds like there may be some problems with the 'Quality Control' of these now?