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Author Topic: Battery selection - critical points  (Read 1605 times)

Offline Dennis Toth

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Battery selection - critical points
« on: December 31, 2009, 09:54:43 AM »
Guys,

Happy New Year to all.

As we get ready to start the new year I wanted to see what we've seen in battery changes and what are the critical selection criteria that one should consider when selecting a pack.

Over this year I have gone through three, 4S1P 3850 Turngy packs, my thought was that I over stressed the pack on the amps. These packs were rated at 10C and I think I was running them very close to that although I only pulled 70% out of them. I have changed to 20C 4S1P 3900 pro lite TP packs for this year. I think that the "C" rating may be more important to the life than the % pulled out as long as there is some head room.

What has been your experience?

Best,              DennisT

Alan Hahn

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Re: Battery selection - critical points
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2009, 10:18:14 AM »
Dennis,
The "C" factor roughly correlates to the internal resistance (Rint) of the particular cell. The higher the "C", the lower the internal resistance--at least if the "C" factor is set by the physical characteristics of the cell rather than the marketing department! n~

So where all this matters is in the heating of the pack during use due to the resistive heating (I2Rint--a real killer of packs.

Another thing to remember, flying at partial throttle is harder on a pack than you might suspect. For example if your throttle is set at 70% of full, then your average current "I" is being supplied only during 70% of the time. Or in other words, the peak current Ipeak is actually 1/.7 (~142%) higher than the average current (Iave)you measure. So the heat produced in the pack during the "on" time is 1.422 or~ 2 times what you would calculate from using Iave. However the other 30% of the time the pack is supplying nothing, so when you take the average of the on and off periods, you end up with 1.42 times what you would calculate from using the Iave for the heating calculation. So you see you may be a bit harder on the pack than you think.

But cutting through all that --are your packs hot when they come out of the plane after a flight? If they are just "warm" then I don't think you are over-abusing them due to heating.

So getting back to your first question, heating is bad, so a "real" higher C rating is better. But the other thing to remember is that most high "C" rated packs are heavier than the lower "C" rated packs (I am thinking about my 18C FMA 2100 mAHr cells and the Thunderpower Lite cells too). Sometimes it seems like if you would just buy a higher capacity but lower C rated cell, the the allowable amps out is basically the same as the lower capacity but High C cell---and both have roughly the same weight. (I haven't made any precise determination of this, it is just a feeling).

There are also issues (just look at the battery forum on RC Groups to see the controversy) about whether the super cheap packs are really capable of many cycles (since initial cost/(# flights) gives the real cost of a pack). I know that some people are measuring some of the new packs  like Hyperion and Thunderpower (both ~35C or higher and not "cheap") are capable of realistic 10C type use (a 6 minute flight) for >200 cycles before a loss of capacity is noted. Of course they are only discharged to the 80% level for each cycle.

Offline Dean Pappas

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Re: Battery selection - critical points
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2010, 06:05:36 PM »
Hi Dennis,
Do you have any idea what the temperature of your packs was immediately after landing?
It's time to go buy one of those cheap IR thermometers, both Tower Hobbies and harbor Freight sell them.
On a blistering hot Summer day, you don't want the packs to be any hotter than 150 F.
You can hold a pack, briefly, at that temp without hurting yourself.
Over-temp is what kills these critters.
Happy New Year,
Dean P.
Dean Pappas

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Battery selection - critical points
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2010, 05:44:11 AM »
Alan & Dean,

Happy New Year.

When I flew these packs they were only warm to the touch at the end of the flight, my guess is 110F. I think as Alan points out that because of the 70% throttle set point the amps that the pack would see was higher than the aveage. I measured the static amps at 38 and assumed the average in flight would be safely less than the 10C this might have been to close. Am using 20C packs now, on landing they are also just warm.

Best,               DennisT

Offline bob branch

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Re: Battery selection - critical points
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2010, 09:25:56 AM »
I went thru 10 C polyquest cells in one year without ever overheating them or discharging them below 80%. They were useless for CL from then on. Changed to 20C Turnigys and no problems, same packs now 3 years. All were always charged on balancing chargers. I think at 10C some motors, notably axi 2826/10's are proped near the max of 10C rating. I think that contributed to the issue. I still use the old polyquests in RC sport planes with no issues other than their weight.

bob branch

Alan Hahn

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Re: Battery selection - critical points
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2010, 10:08:19 AM »
Alan & Dean,

Happy New Year.

When I flew these packs they were only warm to the touch at the end of the flight, my guess is 110F. I think as Alan points out that because of the 70% throttle set point the amps that the pack would see was higher than the aveage. I measured the static amps at 38 and assumed the average in flight would be safely less than the 10C this might have been to close. Am using 20C packs now, on landing they are also just warm.

Best,               DennisT


I think battery technology has really improved since 10C cells were the state of the art---even with the cheaper cells. So hopefully we won't be seeing a lot of problems with low lifetime batteries .

But it is surprising that yours had issues--if they are just warm, I wouldn't think you are abusing them.

Offline bfrog

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Re: Battery selection - critical points
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2010, 05:46:42 PM »
I tend to agree with Alan that at 10c they should have worked better. Especially if the packs were just getting warm after a flight. Lipos actually work a bit better if they are warm (not hot!!).

If you were drawing 38 amps on the ground my experience is that in the air that will drop 10% or more. That should be well within the rating (3850mah) of the battery. Now I do know that battery ratings can be "enhanced" by the supplier but 10C for a lipo is really kind of the lower standard.

I would expect the newer packs will do much better.

DennisT
It's still good to post information like this because we all gain from others experience and in the long run everyone benefits.

Good luck
Bob Frogner


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