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Author Topic: Batt question (update)  (Read 1542 times)

Dwayne

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Batt question (update)
« on: July 03, 2011, 12:00:26 PM »
Ok so I have a Twister with a E-Flite 15, apc 11X7 and a 3200 3 cell. I launch a 8550 rpm, it works real well and after a 6:20 flite there is still 3.77 volts in each cell  the problem is the plane weighs 42 oz. so if I'm only using .47 volts  per cell per flite, can I go to a lighter 2650 ma 3 cell and still get the same performance?  ???

Thank you
Dwayne
« Last Edit: July 04, 2011, 09:36:27 AM by Dwayne Donnelly »

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Batt question
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2011, 01:41:13 PM »
Cell voltages are a very undependable measure of battery usage, partially because the mid part of the discharge curve is very flat, and partially because the cell voltage varies with temperature, current draw, and just about everything else.  You want to look at the amount of capacity that's returned to the cell during charge.  I assume your charger reports how much it puts back into the cell -- how much is it?

If you take that "capacity returned" number and multiply it by 1.25 to get a cell capacity, then those cells should end up being discharged by 80% at the end of each flight.  That's the smallest cell size that you want to use.

I just ran your reported numbers through a spreadsheet that I have, that distills the numbers from the various planes in the "list your setup" thread here.  It doesn't pencil out.  At 42 ounces and three cells, I get a prescription for 3500mAh cells (assuming a 75% charge use at each flight).  I'm also predicting that you'd need 300W average power and 400W peak, which would leave you with a pretty hot motor.  Also, for the Kv of that motor with three cells, you want to launch at something more like 8000 RPM (assuming you're using an ESC with 'helicopter mode' governing).

Either you're managing with a lot less power than the rest of the folks on the list, or you're really flogging your motor and especially your batteries.  And if I'm not mistaken about the launch RPM, you're also seeing some sagging toward the end of the flight.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Wynn Robins

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Re: Batt question
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2011, 02:25:20 PM »
heres a quick and relatively accurate way to work out your required capacity

Total Watts = weight /16 *112
Average current = total watts/battery voltage
mAh Used - flying time/3600x (average current x1000)
Recommended capacity = mAh used/7.5*10

so in your case
Total watts - 42/16*112 = 294
Ave Current -  294/11.1 = 26.48
Mah used - 380/3600 * (26.48*1000) =  2795
Rec Capacity = 2795/7.5*10 = 3726

So Tim is accurate on you needing a larger pack in the VERY least - or go to a 4s pack and you will be ok with 3000 mAh

what does your charger say you are putting back into the pack? 
In the battle of airplane versus ground, the ground is yet to lose

Offline Dean Pappas

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Re: Batt question
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2011, 02:36:53 PM »
Hello Dwayne,
Glad to hear it's going well.
Tim and Wynn are steering you right. The total charge delivered by the charger is the real measurement.
Just because I am a little more conservative on battery usage, I'd say to multiply the actual charge put back in after a flight as read off the charger, by 1.33 in order to assure 75% battery usage or less.
Granted, a lighter battery might get you under 40 ounces and that could allow you to use thinner lines and maybe even improve performance.
let us know how how it goes,
   Dean P.
Dean Pappas

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Batt question
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2011, 03:10:38 PM »
Actually Wynn and I were both prescribing 75% use, but we are using different numbers to predict the actual energy used -- hence my 3500 and his 3726.

With plane in hand, with a setup that even sorta-kinda works, it's probably best to take a measurement and see how that fits with everything else.  Practical experience should always trump theory.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Dwayne

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Re: Batt question
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2011, 04:01:14 PM »
Thanks guys lots to learn yet, I'll let you know what the numbers are next time I go out, btw when I'm done with a flight the first thing I do is check the batt and motor and both are just barley warm not even close to being hot.
Thanks again
Dwayne

Offline Keith Renecle

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Re: Batt question
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2011, 12:40:05 AM »
Hi Dwayne,

The above advice is spot on. The Eflite 15 motor has a kv of 950 and is well suited to a 4-cell lipo. If you look at my Protron in "List you Setup" and many others, you'll see that the standard 40 size setup is a motor with a kv of 900 to 950, 40 amp esc, 4-cell lipo of 2200 to 2600 mAh and the APC 11 x 5 E-prop (pusher or tractor). Your flight time of 5:20 is exactly what I use and this leaves at least 20% over on my 4-cell 2200 mAh batteries. This package is perfect for most of the .40 size stunters.

As Tim mentioned, he assumed that you are using an esc with a governor mode. My rpm setting at high altitude is around 8700 and at sea level 8400~8500. If you're using a basic esc without the governor mode, then you can always get a governor timer from RSM to add to your present esc. Just let us know which esc you have.

Keith R
Keith R

Dwayne

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Re: Batt question
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2011, 04:51:32 AM »
Thanks everyone, here's my set up.
E-Flite 15
11X7 apc tractor
3200 3 cell
Shulz F2B esc
Kim Doherty Timer programer
Max rpm with this batt is 8550
I did some bench runs last night and backed the rpm down to 8300 I'll try this and see how the lap times are.
Thanks again
Dwayne

Offline Keith Renecle

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Re: Batt question
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2011, 05:59:47 AM »
Hi Dwayne,
You have a top-of-the-line esc with governor and timer, but the kv of the E-Flite 15 is better suited to 4-cell operation. This is why you need the 7 inches of pitch at max rpm. For the governor to work, you have to do as you say, and back off the rpm to allow for some headroom for the governor to work. Although your setup can work, it is not ideal. This is why I would still suggest going to the smaller 4-cell 2200 mAh battery and the 11 x 5.5 prop.

Keith R
Keith R

Dwayne

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Re: Batt question (update)
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2011, 09:40:25 AM »
Thank you so much everyone I just got back from the feild your numbers were dead bang on for a 3 cell I need at least a 3700ma batt, I have a zippy 3000 4 cell I'll fly tonight to get an idea of what size batt I'll need to order.
Thanks again this forum rocks!!
Dwayne

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Batt question (update)
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2011, 12:42:31 PM »
Thank you so much everyone I just got back from the feild your numbers were dead bang on for a 3 cell I need at least a 3700ma batt, I have a zippy 3000 4 cell I'll fly tonight to get an idea of what size batt I'll need to order.
Thanks again this forum rocks!!
If you have a flatter prop and the means to dial the RPM up or down at the field, go with the flatter prop and a proportionally higher RPM.  You probably want around 10000 RPM on four cells (flat out, unloaded, 4 cells with Kv = 950RPM/volt gives you around 14000 RPM; you want to derate that by 75% to make sure that you've still got oomph when the batteries sag at the end of the flight -- and that works out to 10545, 10000 after you drop the extraneous digits).  So if you have a 11x5, 11x5.5 or 11x6 (or better, all three) you may want to try them out with a higher RPM.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Keith Renecle

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Re: Batt question (update)
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2011, 01:09:35 AM »
Ooopsie! I see that I stated rpm ranges for 11 x 5,5 as 8400 to 8700. It's just the old age thing again! Sorry, the rpm range is in the 9400 to 9800 rpm range. I try to fly with 65 foot lines (center to center) and lap times of around 5.2 to 5.4 secs, but this all depends on your own preferences and model performance.

This is what makes e-stunt so great because you can dial in the rpm of choice without changing props if the prop is more or less in the right pitch range. Let us know how the 4-cell works. Thanks.

Keith R
Keith R

Dwayne

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Re: Batt question (update)
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2011, 09:13:21 AM »
Hey all just got back from the feild flew with a 3000 4 cell and ended up with a input number of 2563 that's after multiplying by 1.25, so if I go to 11X5.5 at a higher rpm will I get less draw?
thanks
Dwayne

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Batt question (update)
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2011, 09:33:03 AM »
If you were flying with that 11x7 then you should get slightly less draw.  The real reason you want to do it, however, is because it should make your motor and ESC both run a bit cooler.  That's because with the flatter prop and higher RPM, the motor will be generating pretty much the same shaft horsepower, but it'll be drawing less current to do it (and "seeing" a higher voltage, which will make up the power).  That lowered current means less loss in both the motor and ESC, and lower temperatures.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Dwayne

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Re: Batt question (update)
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2011, 02:03:08 PM »
Ok so lets see if I have this now...Less pitch means less load on the motor even at higher rpm's and therefore draws less current which means I can run a smaller lighter battery...   Is that about right?
I'm also  wondering now if the E-Flite 15 might be to big for a Twister and maybe I need something smaller.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2011, 07:17:24 PM by Dwayne Donnelly »

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Batt question (update)
« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2011, 09:45:53 PM »
Ok so lets see if I have this now...Less pitch means less load on the motor even at higher rpm's and therefore draws less current which means I can run a smaller lighter battery...   Is that about right?
I'm also  wondering now if the E-Flite 15 might be to big for a Twister and maybe I need something smaller.
Well...

At the motor, what you get back in lower current you'll pay for in higher voltage.  In fact, at the motor the flatter prop may well be less efficient, because of skin drag.  But both the motor and ESC will waste less power as heat because of the lower current.  So even if you don't gain that much efficiency overall, you'll be heating up motor and ESC less, which is a good thing.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.


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