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Author Topic: Battery care and rules.  (Read 2876 times)

Offline John Rist

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Battery care and rules.
« on: March 14, 2011, 12:03:41 AM »
All this info is around many times but I wish one of the experts in electric power would write a pushpin article that answers the following battery questions.  That way it will stay at the top of the forum for new comers to read.

1. Define the common Lipo terms.  2S, 3S, 4S etc. 20C, 30C etc.
2. Fully charged what is the voltage of a Lipo cell.
3. Can Lipo cells be run in series and parallel.
4. As a rule of thump what is the fastest charge rate for a Lipo pack.
5. What is the lowest safe discharge voltage of a Lipo cell
6. What is the proper way to store Lipo cells - long term, short term
7. How real is the fire / explosion dangers of Lipo cells. What is a safe setup to charge Lipo packs unattended.

I know the answers to most of these questions (or at least I think I do) but they seem to keep cumming up.

 #^   #^    #^      #^       #^      H^^
John Rist
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Offline Igor Burger

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Re: Battery care and rules.
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2011, 06:55:13 AM »
1. Define the common Lipo terms.  2S, 3S, 4S etc. 20C, 30C etc.

"S" stands for "series"
"P" stands for “parallel”

Means, 4s2p is battery of 8 cells connected 2 parallel and 4 in series. For example if the cell is 1Ah lipo of 3.7V per cell, the whole battery has 14.8V and the capacity is 2Ah.

“C” stands for “capacity” and it is used to rate the batteries for maximal discharge current. For Example 20C means, that 1Ah battery can be loaded to 20A discharge current. I note that the battery from previous example can be still loaded to 20C even if it has cells two in parallel, because 20C of 2Ah battery gives 40A … 20A for each.

I note that we know 3 types of “C” one for contiguous discharge, one for short peaks (burst) and one for charging. So for example the cell can be rated 20C/40C for discharge, means 20 continuous, 40C in burst and charging could be for example 3C.

2. Fully charged what is the voltage of a Lipo cell.

4.2V  (3.6V for LiFe)

3. Can Lipo cells be run in series and parallel.

Yes, Yes, but configuration must “compatible. We cannot mix apples and oranges.

4. As a rule of thump what is the fastest charge rate for a Lipo pack.

“C” rate is defined by manufacturer. Older cells 1C, newest could be 6C. It means the MAXIMAL charging current during constant current phase. 6C does not mean that the battery can be charged during 10minutes.

5. What is the lowest safe discharge voltage of a Lipo cell

3.0V LOADED. It will make typically 3.8V unloaded. But good compromise (for the battery life time) discharge voltage loaded is at least 3.2V.

6. What is the proper way to store Lipo cells - long term, short term

Keep the capacity in the middle of discharge/charge state. Never store deeply discharged, if possible do not store fully charged. If necessary, take out few mAh from fully charged battery, if you need to store it for more that day or two. Long term storage should be at 50% to 20% or the capacity. The temperature should “refrigerator” temperature … wegetable box is the good place. Use sealed plastic pack, and do not open it until battery gets ambient temperature (because of condensing water)

7. How real is the fire / explosion dangers of Lipo cells.

It is relatively safe. But be careful at charging, and after any accident, mechanical or electrical (model crash, overcharging, over discharging, overheating). Battery can be danger long time after that (days). So always store it closed in safe cover.

8. What is a safe setup to charge Lipo packs unattended.
WWII bunker :- ))))))))))))

Offline WhittleN

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Re: Battery care and rules.
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2011, 08:42:44 AM »
John
I’m no expert but I will try to answer the 7 questions.  Looks like Igor and I worked on it at the same time and my answers may be redundant but I will post them anyway.
1.  Define the common Lipo terms.  2S, 3S, 4S etc. 20C, 30C etc.
2S, 3S refers to how many cells are wired in series.  “S” refers to series - so a 2S means 2 cells are wired in series 3S means 3 cells in series.  The result is the voltage is an “S” multiple of cell voltage (nominal 3.7 vDC Lipo batteries cell voltage times “S” or 7.4 volts for 2S and 3S equals 11.1 volts.    Mille Amp Hour (mah) rating would remain the same as labeled (see question 3).  20C, 30C is a rating that the manufactures place on their batteries to reflect the discharge capability of their batteries.  So, on a 20C rated battery you could discharge an 1800 mah capacity battery at 36 amperes.  On a 30C 1800 mah rated battery, the maximum discharge rate could be 54 amperes.  Note: On some low end batteries this rating is unreliable and caution should be used in discharging at the full rates.  
2.  Fully charged what is the voltage of a Lipo cell?  Standard Lipo batteries are charged to 4.2 vDC per cell.  So if you run a 5S pack, meaning 5 cells in series, the fully charged pack is 21 vDC although the nominal rating is 18.5 vDC.  5 X 3.7 equaling 18.5 vDC and a fully charged pack is 5 X 4.2 equaling 21 vDC.
3.  Can Lipo cells be run in series and parallel?  Yes, they are run in Series most of the time but the Pattern Fliers run Parallel packs often to gain capacity.  Note that the packs are run in parallel but disconnected and charged individually.  If you have two 4S packs with 1800 mah capacity and you wanted to maintain the 14.8 vDC nominal voltage but increase duration you could construct a connector that allowed the two packs to be plugged into the ESC in parallel. The capacity would then be 3600 mah.  Safety hint DO NOT try to charge these in parallel you will screw up the balance of the cells.
4.  As a rule of thumb what is the fastest charge rate for a Lipo pack?   The short answer is 1C which means 1 times the rated mah rate of the battery pack. Example if you have a 5S 1800 battery pack then you can charge it at 1800 ma or 1.8 amperes (a) be sure to set the charger to the correct number of cells (5 in this case) and then set charge current to 1.8 a.  Some high performance battery cells allow higher charge rates, ThunderPower just came out with cells rated at 12C charge rates and discharge rates at 65C.  Meaning that an 1800 mah battery can be charged at 21.6 Amperes and the battery can be discharged at 117 amperes. Wow!
5.  What is the lowest safe discharge voltage of a Lipo cell?   Standard Lipo batteries 3.0 vDC per cell.  So 3.0 vDC X numbers of cells or on a 5S 1800 battery 3 x 5 or 15 vDC. Many folks set the low voltage cutoff on their ESC to 3.2 vDC per cell - this is conservative but I think prudent.  
6.  What is the proper way to store Lipo cells - long term, short term?  Short term meaning from flying session to flying session (less than a month, normally weeks). I store mine charged and ready to go from week to week. Long term meaning over the winter store at 3.8 to 3.9 vDC per cell.  Check voltage with voltmeter and maintain the charge at 3.8-3.9 vDC for the duration of storage time.
7. How real are the fire/explosion dangers of Lipo cells? What is a safe setup to charge Lipo packs unattended?   Always think safety.  Last question first – don’t leave your batteries to charge unattended.  Many batteries have gone up in flames, 99% of the time it is operator error.  The most often cause is the wrong kind of charger or wrong settings programmed by the operator.  Here are some common sense things to think about maybe they will save your car or house from going up with your batteries.
  a.  Get a reliable charger that is purpose built for the job of charging Lipo batteries.  Lear how to use the charger properly. I know 99% of the folks reading this are male and “we don’t need no stink ‘in instructions” but for once read the instruction.
  b.  Get a Lipo charge bag or fireproof container to place your batteries into during charging.
  c.  To transport your batteries follow Paul Walker’s lead and get a fireproof “Safety Box” from Lowes or Home Depot.  They are about $25 from Lowe’s.
  d.  Check for bad connections on all parts of your electrical system often.  

Offline John Rist

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Re: Battery care and rules.
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2011, 09:41:14 AM »
Thanks!  all good info.  As I said earlier can the info be placed in the pushpin section at the top of Getting all AMP'ed up?  This way new comers can find it easily. 

 :!    :!     :!   
John Rist
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Offline WhittleN

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Re: Battery care and rules.
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2011, 10:42:58 AM »
John
I will edit my above post some and ask Dean to post in the pushpin section.  Good questions.

Norm

Offline John Rist

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Re: Battery care and rules.
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2011, 04:31:54 PM »
John
I will edit my above post some and ask Dean to post in the pushpin section.  Good questions.

Norm

Thanks!!!  #^
John Rist
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Offline Ron Heckler

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Re: Battery care and rules.
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2011, 05:55:37 PM »
Hi John,

All the answers you received are right on the money, and if you want to go one step further, I've written an article on keeping statistics when charging Lipo batteries.   It appears in the current issue of Stunt News on page 58 and 59.
I hope you find it interesting and helpful.

Ron Heckler
New York Control Line Stunt Team

Offline Dean Pappas

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Re: Battery care and rules.
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2011, 09:33:18 PM »
Such a flurry of activity on Pi Day!  n~
Regards,
  Dean P
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Offline WhittleN

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Re: Battery care and rules.
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2011, 07:37:27 AM »
Guys
The battery questions are posted on   ....fesselflug.eu/html/battery_questions_answered.html
Igor and I jointly combined our answers - hope it helps some of the new and old guys.

Norm

Offline Ward Van Duzer

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Re: Battery care and rules.
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2011, 10:24:48 AM »
One more batter/charger question. (This looks like the place)!

Looking at some of the web sites it appears that some battery/ charger combos are compatable, and others require adaptor/balancers(?) What are the rules here? Are there any? How do we know what works with what?

Local flyer has an IMax  5 charger available. How do I know what batteries it'll work with (balance?)

Getting more complicateder and complicateder...

Ward-O
I hate spelling errors, you mess up 2 letters and you are urined!

Don't hesitate to ask dumb questions.
They are easier to handle than dumb mistakes!  Ward-O AMA 6022

Offline Igor Burger

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Re: Battery care and rules.
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2011, 10:32:16 AM »
Right ... you must know type of balance connector on the battery and your charger must have the same. Fortunately you need only dedicated balancer cable between charger and the battery.

Offline Ward Van Duzer

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Re: Battery care and rules.
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2011, 07:06:13 PM »
Hunh?

I get dummer and dummer i guess.

w.
I hate spelling errors, you mess up 2 letters and you are urined!

Don't hesitate to ask dumb questions.
They are easier to handle than dumb mistakes!  Ward-O AMA 6022

Offline Robertc

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Re: Battery care and rules.
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2011, 07:28:07 PM »
Ward,

Seeing is easier than explaining.  Lipo batteries we use, have at least two different type of  plugs for the balance connector.  Thunder Power uses one and most of the Chinese batteries use the other.
Some chargers come with more than one type, others you have to buy another adaptor.  They're not expensive.  It's best to balance the battery when charging.  Balancer goes between the battery and the charger.

Offline PerttiMe

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Re: Battery care and rules.
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2011, 06:14:38 AM »
Q: why do you want to "balance" the cells.
A: in use, one cell in the pack may end up with higher or lower voltage than the rest. On average the pack would be as expected but some cell(s) would be higher or lower. Quite possibly enough to damage the cell or even cause a fire. Balancing puts them all at the same voltage.
I built a Blue Pants as a kid. Wish I still had it. Might even learn to fly it.

Offline Ward Van Duzer

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Re: Battery care and rules.
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2011, 08:55:32 AM »
Hey! I think I'm getting this...

In order to charge a battery you need:

     1. A battery
     2. balancer/connector that matches both battery and Charger
     3. a charger
     4. And maybe, an AC/DC converter

Now, am I to ASSUME (I hate that word!) that all batteries (of equal voltages) and chargers perform alike, and you just need the correct balancer/connector?

That's gotta be too easy... 

W.

I hate spelling errors, you mess up 2 letters and you are urined!

Don't hesitate to ask dumb questions.
They are easier to handle than dumb mistakes!  Ward-O AMA 6022

Offline PerttiMe

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Re: Battery care and rules.
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2011, 09:17:45 AM »
I am not quite up to date on the latest chargers.
Mine needs me to set correct voltage or number of cells and the maximum current I want to allow. It is also happiest when fed from a ... 12V battery!

But that's ancient technology from about 5 or 8 years back...
I built a Blue Pants as a kid. Wish I still had it. Might even learn to fly it.

Offline John Rist

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Re: Battery care and rules.
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2011, 12:10:07 PM »
I am not quite up to date on the latest chargers.
Mine needs me to set correct voltage or number of cells and the maximum current I want to allow. It is also happiest when fed from a ... 12V battery!

But that's ancient technology from about 5 or 8 years back...

Your old one Sounds like a peak charger for Ni Cad packs.  DO NOT USE ON Li Po packs.  A cheep Li Po charger that seems to work is the B6 Li-Po RC Battery Charger BK found on eBay.  Just search for "B6 Li-Po" and a bunch at different prices will pop up.  It will charge all types of batteries.   It is only somewhat user friendly so setup can be a little tricky.  However if used correctly it appears To do it all.
John Rist
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Offline PerttiMe

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Re: Battery care and rules.
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2011, 12:35:43 PM »
Your old one Sounds like a peak charger for Ni Cad packs.  DO NOT USE ON Li Po packs.
No no. It has LiPo setups too, and NiCad and NiMH. Those older Schulze chargers don't have a great user interface: I always need to look at the Quick Guide if I need to charge a different pack... At least they keep complaining if they think there's something wrong with my settings...
I built a Blue Pants as a kid. Wish I still had it. Might even learn to fly it.

Offline Dean Pappas

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Re: Battery care and rules.
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2011, 01:15:52 PM »
You want a balancing charger ... preferrably one with the balancer built-in, not an add-on.
I will stop short of suggesting brands but excellent stuff can be had for $50 or $60 and domestically made too!
Dean P.
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Offline John Rist

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Re: Battery care and rules.
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2011, 04:20:36 PM »
excellent stuff can be had for $50 or $60 and domestically made too!
Dean P.

Are there chargers actually made in the USA.  I think Astro Flight was USA built but are their others?   ???   %^@
John Rist
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