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Author Topic: Full Throttle operation  (Read 664 times)

Offline dynasoar1948

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Full Throttle operation
« on: February 20, 2010, 11:13:19 AM »
Gentlemen,

Possibly this message should be in the CL Speed section, but please bear with me.

I've been flying Electric B Speed for quite a while and hold the presect AMA record at 119.63 MPH.   After about ten years have revisited this class with a new ship, battery complement, Phoenix 80 ECU and Hublen timer.  Ship and prop do not figure in the following but battery, ECU And motor mods do.  The motor is still an AVEOX 1415-2Y, however the Hall effect commutation board and AVEOX commution module are gone.  In their place is a Castle Creations Phoenix 80 ECU.  The battery history is originally (1998-9) 18 Sanyo SCR 1100 cells, with 80 Amps showing at start.  The motor developed 20K RPM+ with a flight prop.  In recent efforts with the new ECU, I started with 18 Elite 1500 NiMh cells, and only went about 110 MPH.  Assuming that the battery simply had too much internal resistance, I bought six A123 cells (known good quality) and duplicated the 110.

Bench testing showed RPM down almost 4k and current only 65A.  Voltage the same as would produce 20k and 80A with the previous setup.  Checked battery output into an 80A load and had expected V.

The next check showed that the ECU was at full throttle, with constant red diode.

I have Castle Link, but don't recall the software version in play.  Probably dates to midsummer 2008.  Castle suggests downloading latest software-firmware (?).

I hope that the performance decrease is a result of the ECU settings not commutating the motor as well as the Hall effect system and am interested in hearing suggestions as to Advance and PWM settings for the ECU that might bring back top speed.  Motor only is run for about 40 seconds and is barely warm to touch.  Help me get my RPM back!   

Thanks,   Will Stewart
William Stewart

Alan Hahn

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Re: Full Throttle operation
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2010, 02:55:32 PM »
Will,
I am certainly not an expert where you have gone, but I think there are some things to do.

In the Phoenix ESC, I think you want to play with the timing. I "think" what that does is start and hold current longer as the motor rotates. Typically as the rotor magnetic field lines up with the permanent magnet magnetic field, the torque drops (it equals zero when they are aligned parallel--lets call that 0 degrees). So it makes sense, if you are trying to conserve power, to cut the current a little early, and hold off a little later as the rotor passes the 0 degree alignment point.

However in your case you want to even squeeze some torque out near that point, and the way to do that is to have the ESC hang in there a little longer. The current will also increase naturally at this point, because the back emf (which fights the battery voltage) also drops to zero at 0 degrees (that's another reason for the "frugal" ESC to cut out early too).

So you will draw more current, and get a little more torque which should spin the prop faster. How much I am of course not sure.

I guess that the original sensored setup could be adjusted to increase/decrease timing too. I think there is another effect in that when the motor commutes, there is a natural impediment (actually due the the ratio of the motor inductance divided by the winding resistance) to getting the current to flow. So increasing the timing in that sense means turning on the current as early as possible in order to have it actually full on during the high torque part of the commutation cycle. With the old brushed motors, I think that was the only adjustment (like advancing the timing on a spark engine to get the fuel air mixture burning as soon as possible in order for a complete burn in a high revving engine. Since you are also tuning high rpm's that may also be the main effect in going to  "high" timing.

As I understand the Castle Creation ESC timing, the ESC already "senses" the nominal timing for your motor. I guess it knows how fast the current is ramping up in a commutation cycle by actually measuring it -> but I'm not sure tho'). But if you put in the highest timing, that will tell the ESC to "go for it"!.

I don't know if you will get anything with adjusting the PWM frequency (the throttle control frequency)--since if it is at WOT anyway, there is no switching for a throttle going on --as far as I know.

Finally I think the lipo manufacturers are coming out with pretty low internal resistance lipos--the 35C and 45C rated ones. That might really be the best thing to also look into. Another thing to do is to monitor the high performance forum over on RCGroups
http://www.rcgroups.com/high-performance-9/ , and see what they are doing these days. I am guessing you may already be doing that.

Hope this helped out some.

Offline dynasoar1948

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Re: Full Throttle operation
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2010, 09:40:30 PM »
Hi Alan,

Thanks for your informative reply.  You're right, AVEOX had provision for advancing the timing by rotating the internal printed circuit board that mounted the Hall detectors.  Motor Kv could be increased, in the case of my AVEOX 1415-2Y, from 1175 to about 1300.  Current at no load would increase from 2A to perhaps 8A.

Discussions with Castle Creations (great technical staff) suggested that software glitches in versions previous to 3.2 made it desirable to update to the latest version via computer download.  Will do and will go to more advance.

Glad to learn that PW is  not a factor at full throttle.

I also have an early AVEOX 1409-D3 delta wound motor.  Here, I understand, ECU timing should be set to the lowest.  I'm building an A ship, to use this motor and some NiMh cells left over from some earlier work.  Since 8.4V is the maximum for this class, I'll use 12 cells in series/parallel (charge in full series) to try for lowest internal resistance and not roast the cells at the Amp draw I'm trying for.

Thanks again,   Will Stewart

Ship should just make the weight limit.

William Stewart

Offline dynasoar1948

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Re: Full Throttle operation
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2010, 04:52:27 PM »
Hi Alan,

More testing.  The setup is Aveox 1415/2Y- six A123 cells fully charged-Castle Phoenix 80 ECU with Hublin timer.  Phoenix shows solid red LED so I'm getting full throttle.  Prop is a thin blade 8/8-  Accurate very low resistance Ampmeter, and digital voltage readout at battery terminals.

Instead of 80+ Amps, 19.17 Volts and 20+ kRPM as determined by electric motor calculator, I record 65 amps, 14.5 Volts and about 15 kRPM.

My Questions:  Could the low RPM and Amps result from too low an advance selected in the ECU?  Could the low voltage reading be an artifact of back EMF and ripple in the circuit and be incorrect?  If so, would a big capacitor across the voltage sensing leads improve accuracy?

I was concerned that a botched in-line soldering job might have locally increased resistance in the battery (possible a rotated end cap), but the battery is cool in this area and all over, as is the motor and ECU after a 40 second run.

I tested the battery into a heater load and saw almost 20 Volts into 80 Amps.

Any suggestions??

Will Stewart

William Stewart


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