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Author Topic: Another Dog another 'Tric, Fiorotti V4.4 Timer with Accelerometer  (Read 8197 times)

Offline Fred Underwood

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Toward the end of last flying season the Shark S2 was finished and flown.  The plane is a profile resembling (Similar 2 or S2) the Shark.  Wing area is about 720 square inches and the weight 72 ounces.  A few ounces heavier than desired, but a learning experience in building.  Several trim flights were managed with the Fiorotti Timer V3.1, and it flew reasonably well. The sensor is mounted under the wing in a pod along side the fuselage.  The batteries had accumulated about 75 cycles each and with the increased plane weight, about 2000 mah used/flight, 6S pack.  That happened to be 80% according to the data on PowerLab charger.  Seems that the batteries no longer have the 2700 mah capacity as new, but about 2500 mah, but another discussion.  The batteries also began to minor variation in IR, and though charged to 4.2V/cell, there was slight variation in voltage when off the charger for a while before use.  The V3.1 timer proved to be sensitive to this slight voltage variation, and fortunately V4 was in development.  Rogerio offered replacement and I got an early Christmas present.  A few flights have been managed though weather has interfered.  Being weather bound and unable to fly, this report is a bit early.



« Last Edit: January 17, 2017, 04:59:17 PM by Fred Underwood »
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Offline Fred Underwood

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Re: Another Dog another 'Tric, Fiorotti V4.4 Timer with Accelerometer
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2017, 06:41:02 PM »
The V4.4 timer with accelerometer uses the same sensor and functions as the V3.1.  V3.1 was affected by the Castle ESC pulse width limitations for the Control line Simple governor.  V4.4 is set up to use Control line Gov-Hi.  This gives a better range of pulse width and a stable set rpm, not dependent on starting voltage.  It apparently has been tested with the Jeti Spin 66 Pro noted by Rogerio noted on his new firmware thread.  It also is now programmable by the Jeti box, only.

I found a few interesting features that I had not recognized on V3.1, or new from V3.1.  First is calibration which is now done on the bench. The timer comes calibrated to its sensor as the sensors vary somewhat in internal values.  The unit can be recalibrated if needed such as when changing planes/sensors. This is done by placing the sensor on a leveled pad.  It will have a value of about 400 (though that may be the slight variation) when viewed through the Jeti box on the Accel Status screen.  The timer start button will store the system value.  Then plane is leveled along the wing chord centerline and longitudinally and the sensor placed on its mount. The longitudinal X reading should be 405 and shimmed to that if needed, and the pitch or chord axis (Y) brought to the value of the sensor calibration in the upper R corner of the Accel Status screen.  The 405 is a median value found in the sensors.  Sorry if this is wordy or cumbersome.   In practice, it worked well and was easy with the unit and Jeti box in hand.  I found that I was able to calibrate and have not had to shim the sensor for flight.  The sensor may be shimmed to help even our upright and inverted rpm, or outside versus inside maneuvers.

I had originally thought that the function referred to as 4-2-4 or “nose up” also had nose down action.  If tested on the ground while holding the plane, there is acceleration with the nose pointed up and deceleration with the nose pointed down, and can be demonstrated on a datalog.  In flight, this nose down deceleration does not remain active.  I found this by test flying with “sensitivity” turned off and only using the 4-2-4 function.  Rogerio confirmed this and noted that the function is “nose up.”  This was apparently the same on V3.1, not recognized as I had not tried “nose up” only.

In flight as normally used, added rpm comes from “nose up” function and from sensitivity and the “max” limit.  Deceleration is active when needed controlled by sensitivity and the “min” setting.  I found the timer easy to set up and use. For my particular application I get about 30 rpm change in set value for one increase on the Jeti box, so it is fairly easy to estimate rpm changes.

I used a 4 cell NIMH pack to power the sensor and timer to the Jeti box before installation and power from a flight pack/ESC.  I got comfortable with the system before a fly day.



« Last Edit: January 17, 2017, 05:01:47 PM by Fred Underwood »
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Offline Motorman

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Re: Another Dog another 'Tric, Fiorotti V4.4 Timer with Accelerometer
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2017, 09:13:45 PM »
 V4.4 is set up to use Control line Gov-Hi.  This gives a better range of pulse width and a stable set rpm, not dependent on starting voltage.  


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Offline Fred Underwood

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Re: Another Dog another 'Tric, Fiorotti V4.4 Timer with Accelerometer
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2017, 02:27:32 PM »
A little information from experience, but most would have guessed or figured.  Trim your plane and calibrate the sensor to the plane before using the accelerometer functions, and, don’t try to shim the sensor until the plane is fully trimmed.  When I tried the V4.4, the prop was changed form 12X6 CCW to 12X6 CW.  I realize that the plane was then slightly untrimmed, mainly LO position and tip weight.  Very interesting to fly an untrimmed plane with an accelerometer.  Fortunately the trim was corrected fairly easily and quickly but trim issues definitely affect the accelerometer.  If your plane is not trimmed, use a simple timer, or turn off the Fiorotti timer functions, especially sensitivity #5.  Wing up or down, even a little, can trigger input from the accelerometer and magnify problems.
Fred
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Offline Joe Yau

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Re: Another Dog another 'Tric, Fiorotti V4.4 Timer with Accelerometer
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2017, 10:14:35 AM »
When I tried the V4.4, the prop was changed form 12X6 CCW to 12X6 CW.  I realize that the plane was then slightly untrimmed, mainly LO position and tip weight. 

Usually the battery position needs to be corrected as well for the vertical CG. 
Joe Yau
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Offline Fred Underwood

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Re: Another Dog another 'Tric, Fiorotti V4.4 Timer with Accelerometer
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2017, 06:51:46 PM »
V4.4 uses Castle Gov-Hi as noted.  The throttle screen for Gov-Hi shows optional “head speed” boxes.  The boxes are not used to govern in Gov-Hi, but if an RPM value is entered a corresponding needed pulse width is generated from the program.  If the RPM is too high or low, that will also be noted.  Motor Kv, direct drive/gearing, and battery voltage or cell count are also entered, so the user can know the system is in the correct range before mounting or flying.  Of course the method assumes that you have a system and know the RPM for your prop and line length.  The ESC program gives the needed pulse width to run the system at desired RPM and that pulse width can then be selected on the Jeti box.  The actual entry is a number from 0 – 400 and the selected number will correspond to a pulse width, also seen on the box.  From discussion with Castle, the method should be valid.  A datalog of a short run will confirm pulse width and RPM without use of a tachometer, though use of a tachometer is the alternative method for set up.  Two runs similarly done with say 10 or 20 “Jeti numbers” apart will allow calculation of the RPM change/Jeti number change making field RPM changes easy.  As an example a 12X6 APC used about 9800 RPM and the prop was changed to a Xoar 12X5.  I had recalled about 10,400 – 10,500 RPM, so added 20 numbers form 112 to 132 on the Jeti box and ended up going to 133 after one flight.  So about 600 RPM change for 30 RPM/Jeti number.
Fred
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Offline Fred Underwood

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Re: Another Dog another 'Tric, Fiorotti V4.4 Timer with Accelerometer
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2017, 03:26:12 PM »
The weather allowed another few flights and I was reminded of another new "feature," the greeting sound of the Castle ESC.  There are now two distinct parts to the sound with a few seconds pause between.  Same sounds as usual, just a pause between.  It got my attention the first few times.  If the Jeti box is plugged in, there is not the second sounds and the ESC does not arm for flight.  Instead, the Jeti box is ready for programming after the first sounds. 

And a nice view of the plane here

http://flyinglines.org/planes.9.16.html
Fred
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Offline Fred Underwood

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Re: Another Dog another 'Tric, Fiorotti V4.4 Timer with Accelerometer
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2017, 08:20:25 PM »
I've now flown the timer with a Xoar 12X5 wood 2 blade, an APC 12X6, and an APC 13X4.5 F2B prop cut to 12 inches.  All worked well with the timer at about the same settings except of course RPM.  A datalog is included from the 12X5 but is very similar for each prop.  The set rpm holds with well and the timer added about 800 rpm when needed and could decrease about 750 rpm as needed. The rpm changes were greatest with the 5 pitch as the acceleration and deceleration are a proportion of set rpm.  In all cases the timer changes about 30 rpm/Jeti box number and was easy to estimate close to desired.  Lap time is about 5.3 - 5.35.  The timer was not set for max rpm changes but as desired for conditions.  I still have flown mostly in low wind, and a max of about 8 - 10 mph.
Fred
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Offline John Tate

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Re: Another Dog another 'Tric, Fiorotti V4.4 Timer with Accelerometer
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2017, 10:24:31 PM »
First I want to give a big thank you to Fred Underwood for doing the research/experimenting with the V4.4 timer and posting his setup for us. Finally the weather here in southeast VA was nice enough to go out and fly. The Castle ESC in my Vector 40 was reprogrammed to the Gov Hi mode. The only component that was changed was the timer. The bench setup had to be done on my Vector 40 due to the sensor is installed in the fuselage. The fuselage was leveled on my driveway. Then the wings were leveled also. The sensor that I am using would only set at "407", (could not get the "405" setting). I was able to set 9100 RPM's with the new timer. The model with the old timer would fly level at a 5.3 second lap (9100 RPM). On the first flight with the new timer the Vector flew a 5.0 second lap (upright and inverted). I hooked up the Jeti Box there at the field and reduced the Jeti numbers from 86 to 78. On the next flight the lap time was a 5.22 second. Looks like I need to reduce the Jeti numbers another 3. That should give me a 5.3 second lap. The Vector did increase RPM's while climbing in a loop like it should.  This Vector 40 is using 4 cell with a 12X6EP prop cut down to 11X6. The motor is an Arrowind 2820, 920KV. The model is on 61' lines (eyelet to eyelet).

I did 5 one minute flights. I wanted to see if the RPM's would hold the same as the flight before. The first two flights give me the same lap times of 5.0 seconds. I reduced the Jeti numbers from 86 to 78 for the third flight. The lap times then were 5.22 seconds. The fourth and fifth flights had the same lap timers of 5.22 seconds. Looks like Rogério Fiorotti has a very stable timer. There is still a bunch to learn and I am looking forward using this timer.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2017, 02:36:51 PM by John Tate »

Offline Fred Underwood

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Re: Another Dog another 'Tric, Fiorotti V4.4 Timer with Accelerometer
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2017, 03:50:44 PM »
John, happy that my hard work play helped.  The timer is easy to use as you are finding.  I should have noted earlier that the most efficient way to get start is to level the plane and calibrate the timer and accelerometer as above.  I used about 1.5 minute flights to quickly set lap time with only function 4 working. Of course flying level keeps “nose up” from working, and sensitivity (5) is off.  I then can get a flight or two with the nose up function working for wingover and get a feel of how it works.  I used a middle value of 15 to start.  Once I was satisfied with all that, literally 3 flights of 1.5 minutes, I flew “full” patterns.  Those 1.5 minute flights also allowed me to check battery usage in milliamp/minute and I chose to shorten my first pattern to 5 minutes and leave out a couple of level laps to make sure that I didn’t over draw a battery pack.  I started with sensitivity at 15, based on my V3 use, and then adjusted.  Since function 4 will cause acceleration, I limited “max” and used 100% min” as a starting guess.  After that, settings are adjusting for preference.  That was on a trimmed previously flown airplane.

Now a little update. The weather is changing to rain, freezing rain and wind, but I managed another outing ahead of that.  The wind was finally up a little running about 10 – 12 mph which gave another test for the timer, or for timer settings – me.  Using the CCW prop APC 13X4.5 F2B cut to 12” and an RPM of about 10,200 as a base, the sensitivity went from 17 with max of 35 and min of 100 to sensitivity of 18 and max of 30 and min of 100.  Increasing sensitivity with the absolute number for minimum staying the same, or if not at 100%, then increasing the number will allow more deceleration.  More acceleration was not desired, so the max limit was decreased as the sensitivity increased.  The overheads and hourglass maintained good line tension and the bottom of the hourglass was quite manageable with the slowing.  Loops didn’t wind up.  There is about 700 rpm increase or decrease from the base as needed.  Noted before that rpm number is a percent of the base, so a flatter pitch and higher rpm as base will give a larger number swing.  The datalog attached is of a normal pattern so the maneuvers can be easily followed as to what the timer is doing.
Fred
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Offline John Tate

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Re: Another Dog another 'Tric, Fiorotti V4.4 Timer with Accelerometer
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2017, 03:31:10 PM »
I went out again with my Vector 40 with the Arrowind 2820, 920KV using 12X6EP  prop cut down to 11X6 and powered by a 4 cell battery again. This time I set the Rogério Fiorotti timer to the following:  Flight time = 5:10, PMW set at 071, (This gave me a 8800 RPM on the tac. The Data log showed a little more the 9000 RPM in the air). RPM incr nose up = 10, Sensitivity acc = 15, Max limit = 10. Min limit = 80%.

I was able to do a very enjoyable stunt pattern. The motor transitions were nice and smooth. You could hear the propeller speed up when needed and slow down when needed. The lap times were 5.2 seconds. I am thinking of using a less pitched propeller to get the RPM's up some and maybe lengthen the lines a foot or two so the lap times are closer to 5.3 seconds. I still have much to learn about the new version of the Rogério Fiorotti timer. I have already made a couple of minor adjustments to the timer for the next time out.  It is hard to wait for some good weather to go out and fly again.

Offline Motorman

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Re: Another Dog another 'Tric, Fiorotti V4.4 Timer with Accelerometer
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2017, 09:00:36 PM »
I'll join the party soon, my Jeti box is in the mail.


MM
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Offline Motorman

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Re: Another Dog another 'Tric, Fiorotti V4.4 Timer with Accelerometer
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2017, 05:46:40 PM »
I took 6 flights today with 2 batteries, three 1:30 flights each. The rpm seemed to respond to adjustments ok and worked well with batteries at various levels of charge (see dancing bananas above).

Here are the settings I ended up with from the Jeti box:

C/L Timer
006       V 4.4

RPM 62    PMW 1.324ms

RPM incr 13

Sensitivity 04

Max limit 30%

Min Limit 95%

Accel Status  402

X= 410   Y= 400

On the Accel Status, do you level the plane then shim the sensor to get the 402 number? That's what I did after the flights (finally dawned on me). How close does that have to be?

I was making adjustments every flight based on my understanding of each parameter which ain't much lol. I really don't understand how they interact.

RPM - I went from 80 (5.00 lap) down to 62 (5.30 lap) When the motor starts it has a solid light and stays solid for about 1/2 a lap then starts blinking. Is this the rpm adjustment period? I waited 3 laps before I clocked it.

RPM Incr - I left this fairly high so I could hear the thing working or not. Seems that at the boost level I want, it's hard to tell it's increasing. I guess data logging would show it. have to learn how to do that. I definitely had power in the overhead eight.

Sensitivity - started at 08 and it was increasing rpm flying level in turbulent spots. Still noticed it a little at 06 but 05 was ok. I tried 04 and I didn't really notice any difference between 08 and 04 during maneuvers.

Max Limit - tried 30 and 35 no difference. I guess my rpm increase was 30% or less. Next time I'll go lower to see what this does. I don't understand why there is an RPM Increase and a Max limit, they sorta seem to be the same thing?

Min Limit - This is where I had the most problem. When it goes nose down it's not slowing down. I go up into a wing over and the RPM boosts up. The plane goes up and over the top and the boost keeps going until I pull out level. Same thing with a loop. I go up into the loop and get the RPM increase and it doesn't shut off until I stop doing loops. My Question is: Does 100% mean there is no deceleration or does 100% slow it down the most?

Any light you can shed on my musings would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
MM  
« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 06:03:41 PM by Motorman »
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Offline Fred Underwood

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Re: Another Dog another 'Tric, Fiorotti V4.4 Timer with Accelerometer
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2017, 07:53:48 PM »
Great to see that you are getting a chance with the new timer.  What motor/kv, how many cells, what prop/pitch and actual rpm?

From the top, the 006 is the number of flights that end with the specified time, not runs stopped with the button.

You are low on the rpm setting and pulse width, so guessing a pitch of 6+?

You didn't mention using only setting 4 with sensitivity of 0.  In simple terms, it adds rpm with tilt angle, so if you point the nose up over 30° you get added rpm.  If you start there you can get a feel for what that function does.  It will speed up and return to baseline rpm, not below baseline.  A couple of short flights with wingover and various loops will give you the feel.  That will help you then feel and set function 5.  Set function 4 at 15+ when using alone, then 10 - 15 and start adding sensitivity (5). 

Yes, the light is as described.  On V3.1, that was about where the "gear up" change was, perhaps the light is still running from that timing.

Function 5, Sensitivity, is a setting for acceleration based algorithms, not tile or angle.  Max then limits the maximum rpm added as a percent, not an rpm numeric value. Minimum similarly limits the percent of decrease in rpm.  A higher numeric value for minimum allows for a larger decrease in rpm.  So, you have added rpm from function 4 and 5, but decrease only by 5. Functions 4 and 5 do not increase rpm in the same way, so that is part of your preference for feel.  Function 5 is quite sensitive to airplane trim and sensor leveling.  If the plane dances in the corner, or in turbulence, and you have function 5 turned on, it will change rpm, not necessarily in a helpful way.

I leveled the plane and then matched the pitch axis to the number in the upper R corner by sensor placement.  The roll axis along the wing trailing edge should be about 403-405.  Very minimal shims should help.  I didn't stick mine down with the foam tape until I flew it and it worked, with equal inside and outside loop accel/decel, and similar rpm upright and inverted.

I hope this helps as a start.  I realize that the sensitivity and max/min explanation may be a bit lacking, so ask or pm if you want help.  Look for a pm about datalogging.
Fred
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Offline Motorman

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Re: Another Dog another 'Tric, Fiorotti V4.4 Timer with Accelerometer
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2017, 09:52:42 PM »
Thanks Fred, I think I'm going to have allot more fun the next time out.

Motor is Eflight Power 15 with 950kv,  4cell battery 2700mah, prop is complicated but you can call it a 6 pitch, rpm is about 8900 but I think it's too fast, ESC is Ice Lite 50.

So the basic function is a nose up rpm increase then return to base line when nose down or level but, more sensitivity can make it happen faster and even add more rpm which is why you need the Max limit. This way you can make the power come on faster but limit the boost.

The Min rpm limit lets you set more rpm than base line in nose down condition so you have enough line tension for pull outs if your level flight base line is set on the slow side which it should be to save battery power.

I remember thinking I had too much speed in maneuvers now I know why. I set my level flight speed the same as when I used the Hubin Fm9 single speed timer and the Fiorotti timer sped up from there. I need to set my base line speed much slower and rely on the rpm increase for going up hill and set a lower number for min rpm if the lines go slack coming down the hourglass.

Does that sound right?

Thanks,
MM







 
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Offline Fred Underwood

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Re: Another Dog another 'Tric, Fiorotti V4.4 Timer with Accelerometer
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2017, 11:30:39 PM »

So the basic function is a nose up rpm increase then return to base line when nose down or level but, more sensitivity can make it happen faster and even add more rpm which is why you need the Max limit. This way you can make the power come on faster but limit the boost.

Nose up increase is function 4 and is independent of sensitivity function 5 so end the first thought at "nose down or level."
Sensitivity function 5 and max and min will not directly impact function 4.  In my non-engineer speak, the input of 4 and 5 may be combined when both add input.  4 only adds rpm or returns to baseline and then add to that the rpm changes called for by 5. Increased sensitivity will increase the slope of the gain line - see the graph on the Fiorotti site.  Max limits the numeric value of rise, not slope, and min limits the numeric value of rpm decrease.  The most decrease in rpm is with the min at its largest numeric value - 100%.

The Min rpm limit lets you set more rpm than base line in nose down condition so you have enough line tension for pull outs if your level flight base line is set on the slow side which it should be to save battery power.

In general as the plane is pointed down and gravity helps it speed up, the function 5 will cause slowing of rpm and limit speeding up.  Rpm is then slower than base line but plane speed may be as fast or faster.


I remember thinking I had too much speed in maneuvers now I know why. I set my level flight speed the same as when I used the Hubin Fm9 single speed timer and the Fiorotti timer sped up from there. I need to set my base line speed much slower and rely on the rpm increase for going up hill and set a lower number for min rpm if the lines go slack coming down the hourglass.

Level flight speed will likely be slower than with a straight rpm.  I use about 5.3 - 5.35 and have gone slower.  I get about the same laps left at the end with 5.3+ base laptime and the accelerometer as I did with a KR and 5.15 - 5.2 second laps. 
Fred
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Offline Motorman

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Re: Another Dog another 'Tric, Fiorotti V4.4 Timer with Accelerometer
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2017, 07:18:58 AM »
Thanks Fred, you're the best.


MM
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Offline Fred Underwood

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Re: Another Dog another 'Tric, Fiorotti V4.4 Timer with Accelerometer
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2017, 06:32:23 PM »
The weather was nice for a couple of days with temperature in the 50’s and almost no wind.  The temperature was very pleasant in partial sun and no wind, but no wind was not so good for flying.  In previous flights the datalog was used to gain numeric information.  That data was useful for RPM set up and sensor alignment.  The sound changes are easy to hear, but sound is easily affected by the prop length, pitch and composition, and likely several more factors.  Datalogs can quantify RPM changes, but still don’t give an ideas as to proper timing of the changes.  The datalog can also give information as to the RPM, amp draw, temperature, and throttle/timer input.  It is also easy to see if insides and outsides, and upright and inverted laps have about the same rpm, useful information about sensor position and leveling.  One other “setting” to adjust is the distance from CG, or from trailing edge to the sensor.  That location can affect sensitivity.  With that done, it still comes down to flying and preference.
 
Several flights were done and the timer adjusted for preference.  Lap time had been a little slow, about 5.35 and the sensitivity a bit high.  With a few adjustment through the JetiBox to the timer, the timer was dialed for my preference.  Power seems to turn on and off at the appropriate time, or place in the maneuver, and the power change is adequate.  It will be interesting to see what changes are needed with wind. 
Fred
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Offline John Tate

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Re: Another Dog another 'Tric, Fiorotti V4.4 Timer with Accelerometer
« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2017, 10:22:21 PM »
I was able to go out and put up one flight on the Vector 40. The wind was around 10 MPH and gusty at the top maneuvers. The only change was a newer battery and adjusted the Min limit to = 50. The motor this time did not drop down in RPM that bad at the bottom of the maneuvers. The motor still increased RPM as needed in the climbs. There was enough time to put in two extra outside square loops to untwist the lines. You could almost imagined that there was an over muffled Fox 35 out at the end of lines. Except there is no castor oil residue to clean up after the flight.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2017, 08:47:10 AM by John Tate »

Offline Motorman

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Re: Another Dog another 'Tric, Fiorotti V4.4 Timer with Accelerometer
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2017, 12:31:17 PM »
I leveled my sensor and it made a world of difference. No more surge in level flight so I was able to up the sensitivity allot and come down on the max limit (as suggested by Rogerio). This gave me a noticeable braking effect on the wing overs with min limit at 100%.

Still doing short flights but, I did all the critical maneuvers with nothing but smiles. Next time out I'm going to charge more batteries and start doing full patterns to check battery usage.

MM
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Offline Fred Underwood

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Re: Another Dog another 'Tric, Fiorotti V4.4 Timer with Accelerometer
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2017, 05:03:52 PM »
John, great to hear that you are having fun and good flying with the timer.

I leveled my sensor and it made a world of difference. No more surge in level flight so I was able to up the sensitivity allot and come down on the max limit (as suggested by Rogerio). This gave me a noticeable braking effect on the wing overs with min limit at 100%.

Still doing short flights but, I did all the critical maneuvers with nothing but smiles. Next time out I'm going to charge more batteries and start doing full patterns to check battery usage.

MM

A good reminder that leveling the sensor is key from the beginning.  I find it a bit difficult to describe as in the first reply above and will try slightly rewording.  The plane should be level with respect to wing (cord) incidence, and with a level trailing edge.  Then the sensor should be leveled on its mounting pad.  "Level" for the sensor incidence, Y reading, is when the incidence value is the same as the value in the R upper corner of the Jeti box, and the sensor is level with the trailing edge when the sensor x value is about 405 on its pad.  And when all is well, remember to push the button for calibration.  Careful, no yaw as it may significantly alter the" throttle." Fix the sensor wiring so that it does not induce change in position.

Another useful mounting tip is that the sensitivity seems mechanically increased when the sensor is moved rearward.  I mount the sensor about 3 - 4 inches behind the bellcrank pin. Some early instructions use about30 mm behind the bellcrank pin, so you may wish to try that whole range as you are dialing the sensitivity and max and min values.

As you turn up the sensitivity, any vibrations (prop or bearings) or dancing of the airplane can cause pulses or spikes in rpm even though you limit max and min.  Think of sensitivity as rate of change, where max and min limit the value of the change.  More rate is not always better.


Since leveling of the sensor and calibration of the plane and sensor is critical, another description of the procedure.  Set the sensor on a leveled table or pad, not on the plane at this time, and look at the readings on the Jeti box.  They will be about 405 for X and about 409 for Y.  The Y value with the pad and sensor level should be the value in the upper right corner of the accel status screen.  This procedure can be used to reset the value in the upper right by pushing the button for calibration.  The value should be between 395 - 415 and usually around 409.  It is a value inherent to the sensor when the sensor is level, so use that value.  Now for calibrating the sensor and plane.  Level the plane along the wing trailing edge, and level out any wing incidence.  Now place the sensor on its mount in the plane and adjust the mount so that the sensor has the same values as when on a level table.  Push the button to calibrate sensor to plane.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2017, 11:43:09 AM by Fred Underwood »
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Offline Fred Underwood

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Re: Another Dog another 'Tric, Fiorotti V4.4 Timer with Accelerometer
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2017, 12:53:19 PM »
RPM - I went from 80 (5.00 lap) down to 62 (5.30 lap) When the motor starts it has a solid light and stays solid for about 1/2 a lap then starts blinking. Is this the rpm adjustment period? I waited 3 laps before I clocked it.

There is 8 seconds from the initiation of spool up until the light begins to blink, solidly on in those 8 seconds.  Datalogs show that same 8 seconds is without throttle input other than going from 0 to set rpm.  So, at the beginning of blink you have the beginning of throttle/accelerometer input.  Rogerio confirmed that the accelerometer metering system is locked for those 8 seconds.  In practice if the plane is freed from stooge or helper, and if spool up is soft, you will get about 1/2 lap in the air and the light will start to blink.

Take off and level the plane in that 1/2 lap and then observe the light begin to blink. If you have a well trimmed plane, a leveled and well mounted sensor, and good ground calibration, there should be nothing noticed at that blink point.  If you hear noticeable RPM change, or if you datalog and see significant change, then you likely have something out of alignment so that the sensor is giving immediate input to change rpm though the plane is level.  Since the sensor was calibrated to the leveled plane on the ground, the plane may not be flying in that leveled position, a trim issue, or the sensor may have moved.  If the sensor lead is loose, it may cause some misalignment.  Of course that assumes that you are not being blasted by wind and can observe that the plane is flying smoothly, not an obvious reason for throttle/timer input.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2017, 11:50:50 AM by Fred Underwood »
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Offline John Tate

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Re: Another Dog another 'Tric, Fiorotti V4.4 Timer with Accelerometer
« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2017, 04:51:15 PM »
I have done a few more slight adjustments to the Rogério Fiorotti timer V4.4 to get my Vector 40 fly the way that is nice for me. The settings listed below gave me a good increase in RPM during the climb into the maneuvers and enough decrease in RPM during the down leg in the maneuvers. Lap time = 5.2 seconds. Thinking of adding one more foot to the lines to make the lap time closer to 5.3 seconds (lines now are 61 feet eyelet to eyelet).

Jeti settings:
30 sec = Delay time
5:20 = Flight time
071, 1.342ms = RPM set PMW
13   = RPM Incr Noseup
17  = Sensitivity ACC
20  = Max Limit
70% = Min limit

Model = Vector 40
Motor = Arrowind 2820
ESC = Castle Phoenix Ice Lite 50
Timer = Rogério Fiorotti V4.4
Prop  + APC 12 X 6 cut down to 11 X 6 pusher
RPMs on the tac while sationary was 8800. Data download showed in flight RPMS at 8900
Battery = 4 cell, 2200 MAH, 30C Gforce Elite. (use around 70% of battery per flight)

Here is a video I did last week of my electric powered Vector 40 with the Rogério Fiorotti timer flying the stunt pattern. Turn up your speakers to hear the motor speed up during the climbs and motor slow down during the dives. I edited out the laps between the maneuvers to make the video shorter. Try not to listen to those crazy birds that are in the trees behind the camera.


Offline Fred Underwood

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Re: Another Dog another 'Tric, Fiorotti V4.4 Timer with Accelerometer
« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2017, 12:14:48 PM »
John, the video is a nice addition to the datalogs.  I appreciate the fact that you shared; it’s not always easy to put up a video for everyone to see, thanks.  The datalogs show the function of the timer in each maneuver and you can see the acceleration and deceleration graphically, but the video gives a good audio and visual representation of the flight. The video helps to display the proper timing of acceleration and deceleration.

Propeller plays a large part in the sound.  Having used both a 5 and 6 pitch, I found the sound changes accentuated with the 5” pitch.  Not suggesting that you change, just noting the difference.  Sound is obviously not a factor in prop selection.

I have to admit that I couldn’t entirely tune out the context of the video, made me want to fly and have a similar day.  My sky looked about the same, a bit more cloudy.  If I searched it correctly, your day was about 75° and mine about 45°.  Your birds were in the trees singing, in keeping with the spring like weather.  My birds were geese leaving piles all over the field.  As for the T-shirt, I managed that also, just the 4th layer down.  I could have put the T on top, but might have looked a little out of place.
Fred
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Offline Joe Yau

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Re: Another Dog another 'Tric, Fiorotti V4.4 Timer with Accelerometer
« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2017, 01:29:29 PM »

Lap time = 5.2 seconds.
071, 1.342ms = RPM set PMW
13   = RPM Incr Noseup
Prop  + APC 12 X 6 cut down to 11 X 6 pusher
RPMs on the tac while sationary was 8800. Data download showed in flight RPMS at 8900
Battery = 4 cell, 2200 MAH, 30C Gforce Elite. (use around 70% of battery per flight)


Interesting.. that's very low rpm numbers  (71 / 1.342ms),  and 5.2/lap.    I guess the smaller air frame and 6" pitch helps.  :)

My finding is..  If the settings is either at or below 110rpm.  Everything seems to work well.  But at 125rpm and up (with 5 cells setup),  Max/Min needs to be changed (<max />min)  and nose up needs to be higher.  while sensitivity remains the same.  Also battery voltage is more critical at begin of flight.   As it does effect how much acceleration/brake on the run. especially when doing 3-4 short flights per battery.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2017, 01:56:22 PM by Joe Yau »
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Offline Fred Underwood

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Re: Another Dog another 'Tric, Fiorotti V4.4 Timer with Accelerometer
« Reply #25 on: March 28, 2017, 05:41:19 PM »
Finally a day break in winter rain and a chance to fly.  Wind according to WeatherUnderground at the airport was 13 mph and gusts to 22.  A good test for the timer, plane, and owner.  Flight was on a 13 x 4.5 F2B prop, cut to 12 inches, on 66' lines and about 5.3 second laps.
 
Settings
4@14
5@18
Max@30
Min@100

I also tried 4@12 and Max at 25, but too soft on top of the hemisphere and solved with slightly higher numbers.  My battery usage dropped about 5% from fairly calm where Max was 35% and nose up 15.

A datalog jpg is included showing that the timer signals and rpm response worked well.  I may need to try a different prop in the wind such as using the uncut F2B prop, a flatter pitch and more rpm, a wider blade, or 3 blade as I would have appreciated a little better slowing of the plane.  Of course more experience with wind would help as well.
Fred
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Offline John Tate

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Re: Another Dog another 'Tric, Fiorotti V4.4 Timer with Accelerometer
« Reply #26 on: March 28, 2017, 08:32:24 PM »
Fred,
Looks like you are dialed in there. I know you are enjoying flying the Shark now that everything is working the way you want it to.

Offline Joseph Daly

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Re: Another Dog another 'Tric, Fiorotti V4.4 Timer with Accelerometer
« Reply #27 on: April 12, 2017, 08:03:35 AM »
Yesterday I flew this years new plane with Fiorotti V4.4 timer and all I can say is I am very pleased with the results. this is the second time I have used this new version of this timer, yesterday was perfect conditions 4 to 7 mph wind which was perfect for trimming the new plane. The other time was in 12 to 15 mph wind with last years plane and I was very impressed with it ability to limit wind up with consecutive maneuvers. I will say it does take time to get use to the slower downhill, it just about shuts off!!!!
The only difference in the systems in the two planes is one has a Castle ice lite 50 in it and the other has a Jet spin pro 66 in it. The Jet spin reacts faster to changes then the Castle but both are competitive.
here is the setting I flew yesterday
4@22
5@18
6@30
7@100
On the day with 12 to 15 wind
4@25
5@18
6@30
7@100

this system does everything Rogerio says it will.
Here are a few picture of the new ride.

Offline Joe Yau

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Re: Another Dog another 'Tric, Fiorotti V4.4 Timer with Accelerometer
« Reply #28 on: April 13, 2017, 10:43:06 AM »
Yesterday I flew this years new plane with Fiorotti V4.4 timer and all I can say is I am very pleased with the results. this is the second time I have used this new version of this timer, yesterday was perfect conditions 4 to 7 mph wind which was perfect for trimming the new plane. The other time was in 12 to 15 mph wind with last years plane and I was very impressed with it ability to limit wind up with consecutive maneuvers. I will say it does take time to get use to the slower downhill, it just about shuts off!!!!
The only difference in the systems in the two planes is one has a Castle ice lite 50 in it and the other has a Jet spin pro 66 in it. The Jet spin reacts faster to changes then the Castle but both are competitive.
here is the setting I flew yesterday
4@22
5@18
6@30
7@100
On the day with 12 to 15 wind
4@25
5@18
6@30
7@100

this system does everything Rogerio says it will.
Here are a few picture of the new ride.


Hi Joseph,  
Good to hear its working well.  :)   Just wondering if you could list your set up? (motor, prop, batt etc..) thx.
Joe Yau
MAAC: C-9996

Offline Joseph Daly

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Re: Another Dog another 'Tric, Fiorotti V4.4 Timer with Accelerometer
« Reply #29 on: April 13, 2017, 02:42:42 PM »
Joe,
Here is the package
Cobra 3520 820kv
Alan Resinger 12x6 3 blade
2800 6s TP
700 sq's at 66.5 oz
Jet spin pro 66

Joe

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Re: Another Dog another 'Tric, Fiorotti V4.4 Timer with Accelerometer
« Reply #30 on: April 13, 2017, 05:41:03 PM »
Joe,
Here is the package
Cobra 3520 820kv
Alan Resinger 12x6 3 blade
2800 6s TP
700 sq's at 66.5 oz
Jet spin pro 66

Joe

Thanks Joe.  H^^

Joe
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Offline Traian Dorin Morosanu

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Re: Another Dog another 'Tric, Fiorotti V4.4 Timer with Accelerometer
« Reply #31 on: June 13, 2017, 01:43:33 PM »
Mr Fiorotti

I am flowing your work here on the Stunt Hangar forum. Awesome

I was exploring the use of CCW props for F2b, in the process I was thinking of how to integrate a Rabe rudder for use with CCW props. I was thinking why not use a servo fly by wire type rudder response that is driven by the accelerometer timer. I was thinking that when you register positive G force reading from the accelerometer the servo repose is proportional to the magnitude of the G force and the same for the negative G forces. So the logical question that came after that why not use the Gear output (that so few of us are using for a new task) for Rabe rudder instead of Gear? I am making an assumption that you are monitoring all 3 axis during the flight. Also I realize that we need a super-fast servo response to take advantage of this.
rogerio@metaenergia.com.b

Maybe in the JETTY BOX you could set Aux (Currently landing gear) output option for Gear or Rabe. If Rabe selected then next step set neutral point (rudder trim) and then for inside maneuvers set response% and then for outside maneuvers set a response %.


Traian
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Happiness is the harmony between what you think and what you do. Mahatma Gandhi

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Another Dog another 'Tric, Fiorotti V4.4 Timer with Accelerometer
« Reply #32 on: June 13, 2017, 02:49:40 PM »
I would hope that the rules forbid electric control of aerodynamic surfaces. 
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Offline Fred Underwood

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Re: Another Dog another 'Tric, Fiorotti V4.4 Timer with Accelerometer
« Reply #33 on: June 13, 2017, 05:02:00 PM »
Most of the discussion about possible electronic control is here

http://stunthanger.com/smf/new-electronic-technology/why-fly-by-wire-exists/

I didn't see a rule, but that discussion thread was a few years ago.  

Currently the active timer V4.4 is not supporting retracts.  The new passive timer has retract capability.  Perhaps a new active timer is in the works, but what is being suggested is not available yet.

Fred
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Offline Traian Dorin Morosanu

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Re: Another Dog another 'Tric, Fiorotti V4.4 Timer with Accelerometer
« Reply #34 on: June 14, 2017, 05:23:08 AM »
OK i read the article but what I was talking about was a Rabe rudder only. That can be done mechanically too. Or fly by wire internally.
Each goal you meet is a moment of happiness
Happiness is the harmony between what you think and what you do. Mahatma Gandhi

Offline Fred Underwood

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Re: Another Dog another 'Tric, Fiorotti V4.4 Timer with Accelerometer
« Reply #35 on: June 14, 2017, 10:49:07 AM »
My two cents and not meant to be critical or offensive as the subject is quite interesting.  If I read the fly by wire thread correctly, mechanically linked rudder was felt to be acceptable and is done.  If the sensor provides feedback to any flying surface, the thread seemed to label this somewhere between autopilot, stabilization or enhancement.

If you  wish an answer to sensor rudder input being allowed or desired, or the ability to make it happen via the timer, a new thread in the fly by wire section would be best.  That discussion may get lost in the existing "old dog thread," and use of electronics on flying surfaces is too important to be buried in an existing subject.

Fred
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Offline John Tate

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Re: Another Dog another 'Tric, Fiorotti V4.4 Timer with Accelerometer
« Reply #36 on: June 21, 2017, 06:58:33 AM »
At Brodak Fly-In 2017 I received a second place in Advance Precision Aerobatics flying my Fiorotti V4.4 Timer equipped Vector 40. All of the timer settings were the same as listed in the previous posts by me. The Vector accelerated in the climbs and decelerated in the dives during the pattern. I did let a handful of Expert pilots there to fly the Vector during the week to get their input. Everyone that flew the model told me that they liked it very much.  I got Joe Gilbert to fly the Fiorotti V4.4 equipped Vector for me. Joe seemed to like the power package. Then Joe sat down with me and told some trim changes that I needed on the model. I thought the model flew fine to me. I flew the model after that and Joe was correct. I figured that is the difference between an Expert pilot and an Advance pilot. I learned a bunch letting the Expert pilots taking a turn at the Vector 40.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2017, 07:18:09 AM by John Tate »

Offline Motorman

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Re: Another Dog another 'Tric, Fiorotti V4.4 Timer with Accelerometer
« Reply #37 on: June 21, 2017, 04:38:37 PM »
Ahh the Brodak gazebo of victory.
There will be a sunny day and we will fly our airplanes.

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Re: Another Dog another 'Tric, Fiorotti V4.4 Timer with Accelerometer
« Reply #38 on: June 22, 2017, 06:30:28 PM »
Just received the new timer and also purchased a Jeti Spin Pro 44 and Jeti box.  Looking forward to trying it out.  Just wondering if I need the ferrite rings that are provided on the controller?
Jim Vigani

Offline Rogerio Fiorotti

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Re: Another Dog another 'Tric, Fiorotti V4.4 Timer with Accelerometer
« Reply #39 on: June 23, 2017, 02:37:37 AM »
Just received the new timer and also purchased a Jeti Spin Pro 44 and Jeti box.  Looking forward to trying it out.  Just wondering if I need the ferrite rings that are provided on the controller?

Hi, Jim.

The ferrite rings are part of the project Jeti recommend keeping.

Rogerio.

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Re: Another Dog another 'Tric, Fiorotti V4.4 Timer with Accelerometer
« Reply #40 on: June 23, 2017, 08:17:32 AM »
Thanks.  Just trying to save a few grams here and there.
Jim Vigani

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Re: Another Dog another 'Tric, Fiorotti V4.4 Timer with Accelerometer
« Reply #41 on: June 23, 2017, 04:37:11 PM »
It is reguired when cable is long enough. I shortened mine by half and so removed ferrite ring. Esc works without glitches.

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Re: Another Dog another 'Tric, Fiorotti V4.4 Timer with Accelerometer
« Reply #42 on: June 23, 2017, 06:55:36 PM »
Thanks, that's good to know.  I usually shorten the wires anyway.
Jim Vigani

Offline Joseph Daly

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Re: Another Dog another 'Tric, Fiorotti V4.4 Timer with Accelerometer
« Reply #43 on: June 30, 2017, 11:42:14 AM »
I have been testing this system for the last few months and I have over 120 flights with it. The system works as advertised. I have found that once you set the system to how you want it to come on and off in maneuvers. The only adjustment I make is with max% and I set it based on wind. In calm or dead air I set it to 30% and I. Wind 8 to 10 I set it to 15% and more then 10 10% and this helps control the speed up on maneuvers.
I am. very happy with the way the system works. For me it has help me to be able to fly with confidence in any condition.


Offline Fred Underwood

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Re: Another Dog another 'Tric, Fiorotti V4.4 Timer with Accelerometer
« Reply #44 on: June 30, 2017, 12:30:40 PM »
Which ESC are you using, Jeti Spin Pro or Castle?
Fred
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Offline Joseph Daly

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Re: Another Dog another 'Tric, Fiorotti V4.4 Timer with Accelerometer
« Reply #45 on: June 30, 2017, 03:26:14 PM »
jeti spin pro 66

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Re: Another Dog another 'Tric, Fiorotti V4.4 Timer with Accelerometer
« Reply #46 on: July 15, 2017, 09:58:22 PM »
Getting ready to install my new Fiorotti timer and Spin Pro 44 ESC in my Vector as a test bed and was wondering what the initial settings on the Spin Pro 44 should be.  The motor is an Arrowind 2820 - 920 kv running on 4 cells.  Didn't find any info via search.  Help appreciated.
Jim Vigani

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Re: Another Dog another 'Tric, Fiorotti V4.4 Timer with Accelerometer
« Reply #47 on: July 16, 2017, 03:58:48 AM »
Getting ready to install my new Fiorotti timer and Spin Pro 44 ESC in my Vector as a test bed and was wondering what the initial settings on the Spin Pro 44 should be.  The motor is an Arrowind 2820 - 920 kv running on 4 cells.  Didn't find any info via search.  Help appreciated.

Hi,

Initial settings for JetiSpin Pro.

Rogerio.



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Re: Another Dog another 'Tric, Fiorotti V4.4 Timer with Accelerometer
« Reply #48 on: July 16, 2017, 05:25:38 AM »
Thanks.  Just what I needed.
Jim Vigani

Offline Fred Underwood

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Re: Another Dog another 'Tric, Fiorotti V4.4 Timer with Accelerometer
« Reply #49 on: August 09, 2017, 03:18:37 PM »
Using my own experience along with following a few of the users, it seems that the Jeti ESC will give better results than the Castle for this system.  The Castle seemed to work well enough with low and constant wind, but as the wind and gusts increased along with direction shifts, the Castle doesn't seem fast enough.  The Jeti seems faster at making the transition from acceleration - idle -deceleration.  In wind the Castle may be accelerating when deceleration is needed, even at the top of some round maneuvers.  Much of that can be helped by using mostly deceleration (fairly high 5 and high 7 with low 6). After one difficult wind situation in a contest, a couple or observers specifically mentioned that they listened and watched and that the acceleration was always too late and too long.  Since the wind can add energy, acceleration from the timer is less desired than control and deceleration.

So far, users seem happy with the Jeti Pro which is available in the US.  Basic Jeti Pro settings are just above for the Spin 44,  and similar for the 66.

A thought/question about function 4, nose up or acceleration based on angle - will that "nose up" give acceleration even if not especially needed, as with a wind shift where the plane is already into the wind when you pull up for a square.  Will nose up give added RPM when function 5 will not call for any, or could actually call for deceleration or braking?  Not a problem as 4 can be turned off or down, just trying to gain an understanding.  Or asked another way, if it is windy, gusty and there are some direction shifts, it is better to have 4 turned up, or turned low and adjust mostly functions 5, 6, and 7?
Fred
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