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Author Topic: Analysis of a motor and how it compares to an IC engine.  (Read 560 times)

Offline Andrew Borgogna

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Analysis of a motor and how it compares to an IC engine.
« on: July 31, 2010, 03:22:05 PM »
Hi All
Below is a link to a Scorpion motor that I am looking at and also an analysis my good friend Larry Renger did on the motor.  The analysis is an attempt to get a comparison of the motor to a comparable IC engine, in this case an IC .45.  The question is are we on the right track.  We will use this analysis in future designs so it is important we get it right from the beginning.
Andy
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Pointer to a Scorpion motor I am looking at.

http://www.scorpionsystem.com/catalog/motors/s30_series_v2/SII-3020-1110KV/

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Larry's analysis
A .45 at 1.5 hp/c.i. yields .675 hp.   Divide by .8 for efficiency, and multiply by 745 to convert to watts, and you get 628 watts continuous.  Maybe throw in 10% loss for the prop, and you still are only up to 698 Watts.  This is the required motor steady capacity.

With 840 watts continuous input x .8 for motor x .9 for prop, you get 605 watts of power delivered to the plane.  That converts to .81 hp, which is equivalent to a .54 c.i. wet engine.

I think you have slight overkill, but then you probably don’t want to run the motor at peak capacity for most of the flight, especially if you are running governor mode and want to save “the best for last”.

Looks like pretty good numbers to me.

Why not post this as a question on the web and see if anyone stands up and salutes.
Larry

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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Analysis of a motor and how it compares to an IC engine.
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2010, 03:53:23 PM »
Andrew, I think for an accurate comparison, you need to operate the IC motor as we do for stunt. My guess is that the horsepower number you have is the peak horsepower. We dont run it anywhere near peak horspower in a stunt run so that skews the numbers IMHO
Do you know if this was the number published by the manufacture for the engine or one that was generated by testing?
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Offline Jim Moffatt

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Re: Analysis of a motor and how it compares to an IC engine.
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2010, 04:23:15 PM »
I think Larry is in the right ballpark but agree some with Mark.

The best way to do this is estimate the weight of your plane (including electric stuff), then go to the "post your power system" link, and calculate an average watts per ounce or pound of plane in your weight class.

I did this for a few planes and got around 200 watts per pound of plane. But I have smaller planes.
A 27 ounce Super Clown requires around 300 watts for 60' lines. A 10 oz Baby Clown requires about 125 watts watts for 42' lines.

I think the 200 watts per pound would hold for larger planes or may actually be a little high.

Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Analysis of a motor and how it compares to an IC engine.
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2010, 05:59:10 PM »
For quite a while, the standard was to figure 150 watts per pound. Of course, more is better excepting you have to carry the extra battery aloft.
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Online Larry Renger

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Re: Analysis of a motor and how it compares to an IC engine.
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2010, 06:40:41 PM »
To get the 1.5 hp/c.i. number I went through a number of old Peter Chinn test reports of appropriate engines.  They peak at about 2 hp/c.i. but if you look at the power curves, we run them around the 1.5 level.  So that figure is for a "stunt run" not peak power. 

BTW the Cyclon .049 does 5 hp/c.i.  DK^
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

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Offline Rudy Taube

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Re: Analysis of a motor and how it compares to an IC engine.
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2010, 03:18:09 AM »
Hi Larry and Andy,

I do not mean to sound like I am, in any way, giving advice to someone that has a PhD from MIT. (Ed. Note: Larry knows more in his little fingernail than I know in my whole brain, and Andy is a very smart computer engineer). Sooooo with this qualifier, here is my very humble input to this thread:

Mark and Jim are on the right track. If you are trying to get a power comparison you can use 150 watts per pound as the very minimum for CLPA and 250 as the top max needed. The 180 to 210 range is ideal. Yes, I know you can get by with less if you have a thin airfoil, and sleek low drag plane, but modern CLPA seems to be going in the other direction, thus the 200+ watt recommendation.

As was suggested, using the above info. and looking at the wet engines normally used in the planes on this sections "setups" post at the top of our page will give you a very good idea which motor/setup equals which wet engine/nitro. setup.

Another place to look would be the "Hobby Lobby" web site. They give wet engine equivalents on all their AXI motors, they have a chart for this too. ..... Also the Hanger 9 (E-Flite) site gives wet engine comparisons. Both also mention what wt. plane is covered by their motors. I find that getting a motor that is recommended for a 3D weight that has the weight of my CLPA plane at the lower part of their weight scale is what works best for our modern CLPA planes.

The above sites and info should go a long way in helping you evaluate the validity of your formulas.

I know you guys are trying to make it easier for a newcomer to select a setup, and that is a very good thing to have and will be a welcome tool. But the good news is that we have such a large data base of ECL systems out there now that it makes it very easy for a newcomer to fly ECL, even if they do not know which wet eng. would have worked in their plane in the 1st place. :-)

Regards,  H^^ 
Rudy
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Online Larry Renger

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Re: Analysis of a motor and how it compares to an IC engine.
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2010, 04:55:22 PM »
Thanks, Rudy

As a "Newbie" to e-power, I didn't know what resources were available to judge the motor equivalents.  I tried to figure it out from "first principles".  I will have to compare my numbers to reality.  Reality rules, of course!

Your input will prove invaluable.  200 watts per pound is a heck of a lot simpler than my tortured calculations.

Btw, that is a Bachelors, not a PhD, and can you say "Anchor man" as used at the Naval Academy?  There are scrape marks on the bottom of my diploma.   (PE**)
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline Andrew Borgogna

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Re: Analysis of a motor and how it compares to an IC engine.
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2010, 05:33:21 PM »
Rudy
I agree with Dr. Renger LL~ 200w/pound is a simple way to compute what we need.  Larry your modesty is overwelming, oh boy I am going to have fun with this.  Thank you so much Rudy. ;D
Andy
Andrew B. Borgogna


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