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Author Topic: Altitude Compensation .  (Read 1157 times)

Offline Air Ministry .

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Altitude Compensation .
« on: June 18, 2010, 10:46:29 PM »
Outside the electric wave . So , do they need dialing in for varying altitude (more Nitro) or are they self adjusting . No change needed ?

Offline Keith Renecle

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Re: Altitude Compensation .
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2010, 11:58:44 PM »
Hi Matthew,

I live in Johannesburg South Africa, and the altitude varies from around 5000 to 6000 ft. ASL. I use the same APC props, and then set the rpm lower if I travel to lower altitudes or go to the coast. My 12 x 6 APC can be set from 9100 to 8800 at sea level. I would assume that you will be using governor mode, as flying electric motors in stunt without this is as bad as a really bad glow engine. The neat thing about ECL is that it is consistent, even if it is a little too slow or fast. I found the same with flying diesel stunt, except that with diesels if you're a little lean on the needle, it will fly o.k. but it can over-run the flight time by a couple of minutes. The only time that electric smells worse than diesels is when you burn them out......ask me how I know!!

It all comes down to a setting that you are comfortable with and have enough line tension for the weather conditions. Statement of fact..........ECL beats any other power package when it comes to ease of setup. You can set the flight time for a short period and then get a few flights from one battery pack. The governor mode is the key to the success, and should be easy to setup on most of the esc's today. So in answer to your question.....just dial in some more rpm as you go higher in altitude. The good part is that you use less power (less nitro) with higher altitude. My models use around 200 mAh less from sea level to johannesburg.

Keith R
Keith R

Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: Altitude Compensation .
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2010, 08:27:32 AM »
Thanks Kieth . Intrested in where the Electric's going but im sticking with 2 strokes for now. Comparisons of power characteristics relevant.

Now would they work in a Sea Plane ? or Float plane !  or would they start leaving a Smoke Trail ? How do you go if you WANT Smoke !

Offline Igor Burger

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Re: Altitude Compensation .
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2010, 08:53:56 AM »
Keith, I want to see your answer about the smoke :- ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Offline Keith Renecle

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Re: Altitude Compensation .
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2010, 12:10:08 AM »
Sorry guys, I missed this one. Having "smoked" a few motors by using models that were too heavy for the motor size, I suppose that I'm qualified to speak on this subject! At the 2008 world champs, I burnt out my own MVVS motor and one of Igor's plus the Jeti Spin ESC's. I had to learn the hard way that these brushless motors have so much power and the smaller motors will spin big props at the same rpm as the big motors..........but the windings have to handle the power as well.

The electric motors would work fine in float planes as long as you keep the speed controller out of the water. Look at all the R/C float planes around. There are no brushes in the motor to short out if the motor gets a little wet, so I don't think there are any major hassles in using electrics in water-based model planes.

As this is a stunt forum, the comparison to 2-strokes, 4-strokes, tuned-pipe systems, or even diesels, is always interesting. I've flown all of them and I have to say that nothing comes close to the combination of power, control and reliability of electrics. (I should also add "repeatablity") I believe that there is certainly enough evidence on this forum to back this up. Even the prices of motors, esc's and batteries these days, make it comparable to glow. If however, you are totally hooked on the pure sound of a growling 2/4 break engine.........then that's a different story completely! I still fly both systems, but I must admit that I am indeed biased toward electrics.

Keith R
Keith R

Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: Altitude Compensation .
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2010, 12:48:53 AM »
Aye, the times they are a changing / Even a full size Electric lite plane , bit like a Volksplane with a canopy now. 70 Kg. of batterys in it. Must be the VoltsPlane !
Certainly to fly in the local park without whineing ,snivling etc complaining that they cant hear there Television would be enough to swing the Balance.
Though theres nothing like an unmuffled engine fighting its way through a bit of wind,you can hear a lot of whats going on out there. Wonder if mufflers
have softened all the responce in the engines to loads.Talking about the 1960 or so , Veco 35s and the likes.Flew on Farmland and out in the sticks often in N.Z.
Went out one evening in the Paddock, knowing Id rip the gear out when i landed. Half way through the flight I realised it was no problem. Land inverted .

When youve Gotta Fly , youve Gotta Fly .

Offline Keith Renecle

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Re: Altitude Compensation .
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2010, 12:51:08 AM »
Yup, like you say.....when you've gotta fly, you've gotta fly! You should really give electric a go however, it just adds a new and interesting dimension to stunt flying. As I said, the sound of an unmuffled, growling 2 stroke is hard to beat. My brother had a Voodoo as a kid in the 60's with a Veco 35 combat special on it. We could hear him flying in a park 5 miles away if the wind was blowing our way. It's no wonder that we were kicked off every field in the neighbourhood as kids!

Keith R
Keith R

Offline Dean Pappas

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Re: Altitude Compensation .
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2010, 06:45:37 AM »
You know, Keith ... only two kinds of kids get chased by the cops: delinquents and model airplane flyers! H^^
take care,
Dean P.
Dean Pappas

Offline Lionel Smith

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Re: Altitude Compensation .
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2010, 10:41:21 PM »
With Electric motors, as you go up in altitude they get more efficient.

Let me explain, if the motor makes 400 watts at sea level it will also make 400 watts on top of mount Everest or even the moon as a matter of fact, the difference is that there is less air at higher altitude so a bigger pitch prop can be used, the model and lines have less drag as well.

About 8 years ago I built an electric RC Ugly Stik and was using a speed 600 brushed motor through a gearbox, in Johannesburg at 5000ft I used a 12x8 APC prop on it and it drew 18 amps.

Went down to the coast and at sea level on the same setup I killed the motor in one and a half flights, got a new motor and checked amp draw with the setup and it was up to 32 amps.

Had to prop it down to a 12x6 APC in order to get the amps down to 22.

So yes altitude does make a difference to electric motors but in the total opposite way it does to internal combustion engines.

Lionel

Forever learning to keep the pointy end away from the ground!

Online Lauri Malila

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Re: Altitude Compensation .
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2010, 02:21:06 PM »


 Hi.

 I have been thinking of an electric plane as I live in a very peacefull area, I simply don't want to use IC engines here. The other problem is that I live at a bit over 1000 metres (about 3300ft) altitude.
 Ok, the power and engine run issue seems to be easily solved with electric motor but how about the rest of the plane. I've been flying quite a lot in various places, high and low but most of the efford and concentration goes into getting a good engine run and the crucial thing seems to be the engine power, I haven't really thought of the plane itself. So the question is, is there a noticeable difference in the way my plane flies between sea level and say 1000m altitude, if we don't have to worry about  the power supply? With my free flight gliders I notice that bunt launch is higher up here and I also think that the gliders glide better.
 Sorry, I could not make a simpler way to ask, I hope that you understand what I'm after. L

Offline Lionel Smith

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Re: Altitude Compensation .
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2010, 11:18:05 PM »
Lauri, altitude on an airframe does make a difference, as you said the bunt launch is higher at altitude I have noticed the same when flying discus launch RC gliders, but after a certian altitude it was the other way round on the DLG and the launch suffered.

The main thing I have found when flying a control line stunt ship at altitude is the squares are a bigger radius and the landing decent is longer, less air, less drag.

When setting up a combat ship at altitude to turn as tight as possible it makes it almost unflyable at sea level.

These are the things I have found on my models

Lionel.

 
Forever learning to keep the pointy end away from the ground!

Offline Keith Renecle

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Re: Altitude Compensation .
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2010, 11:23:47 PM »
Hi Lauri,

It's good to hear from you. To add to what Lionel has said (he also lived up here in Johannesburg South Africa before "deserting" us for live at the sea!), it makes quite a difference, but what it means is that you need a few flights to hit those low bottoms accurately. I notice this more when I go to sea level, or close to it, and my pull-outs are always too high for a few flights. Like with most things in life, it is not a linear equation. A friend of ours lives at the coast, but sometimes I fly C/L at his R/C club field. It is inland by about 20 km. but the altitude is 2200 ft. Once again, it is very noticeable for a few flights to get accurate pull-outs.

It is more noticeable on the amount of power used from the batteries, and you score with altitude. My local sports field near our home is just on 6000 ft. and the club where I fly is 5500 ft. Our older club was at 5000 ft. and I remember when I flew my Retro 60 with the standard venturi, it worked o.k. at 5000 ft. but was too big at 6000 ft. Any sudden climb would kill the engine. What I notice now with electrics is that my lap times are a little faster if I go from 5000 to 6000 ft., but it's hardly worth worrying about. Down to sea level makes a big difference from 5,2 secs per lap to around 4,8. The neat thing is that all you do is to change the motor revs to suit what you enjoy. Even if the speed is too slow or too fast, it just stays where you set it. No head shims, venturi changes, nitro etc. etc. to worry about. It's the quietness that tops everything though. I do enjoy the sound of a big bore 75 with a 2/4 break, but if the choice is to fly or not to fly (as in upsetting the locals).........then I will stick to electric. So don't be too concerned about the performance at 3300 ft. You can forget the engine/motor run.....just enjoy the flying!

BTW are you going to the world champs this time?

Keith R
Keith R

Online Lauri Malila

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Re: Altitude Compensation .
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2010, 09:42:47 AM »


 Thanks, Lionel and Keith.

 I was guessing something like that.

 Yep, I will go to Hungary. I'll be there next Monday allready, with 12 litres of fuel.. L

Offline Keith Renecle

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Re: Altitude Compensation .
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2010, 11:23:32 PM »
12 litres of fuel?? Some serious practicing?? I can't make it this time, but hopefully we can do this again in 2012. Hope you do well.

Keith R
Keith R


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